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** The Beggar Woman

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** The Beggar Woman
Woman.

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* EnsembleDarkhorse: Creator/HelenaBonhamCarter as Mrs. Lovett, Creator/AlanRickman as Judge Turpin and Creator/TimothySpall as the Beadle.

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* EnsembleDarkhorse: Creator/HelenaBonhamCarter as Mrs. Lovett, Creator/AlanRickman as Judge Turpin and Creator/TimothySpall as the Beadle.


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* WTHCastingAgency: The original is a notoriously difficult score, yet the cast here made up almost entirely of non singers. Creator/HelenaBonhamCarter’s performance in particular can make the ears bleed thanks to her extremely thin voice.
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** Toby in general is rather popular for being quite TheWoobie and for being the only person who’s rightfully suspicious of Sweeney. This is reflected by his new status as the main point of view in the John Doyle revival, which only increased his popularity.
** The Beggar Woman is also popular for her creepy but ultimately tragic demeanor. This became even more pronounced when later productions started to double cast her with Pirelli.
** Despite being Judge Turpin’s [[TheDragon henchman]], Beadle Bamford has his fans for his [[LargeHam hammy attitude]] and assortment of impressive high notes. The Doyle version was especially popular for his hilarious ColdHam personality and being the primary piano player of the production.
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* AdaptationDisplacement: The musical has completely displaced Christopher Bond's play, to the point that Bond has directed productions of the musical instead of his original play.
** Because the Sweeney Todd story was less well known in America than in England, Americans mostly know the character from the musical only.
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-->''Isn't that Sweeney there beside you?''

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-->''Isn't ''Isn't that Sweeney there beside you?''

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* MostAnnoyingSound: The terrifyingly loud, shrill sound of the factory whistle.



-->''Perhaps today, you gave a nod''
-->''To Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street?''
-->''(...)''
-->''No one can help, nothing can hide you,''

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-->''Perhaps today, you gave a nod''
-->''To
nod''\\
''To
Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street?''
-->''(...)''
-->''No
Street?''\\
''(...)''\\
''No
one can help, nothing can hide you,''you,''\\
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* EnsembleDarkhorse: Creator/HelenaBonhamCarter as Mrs. Lovett, Creator/AlanRickman as Judge Turpin and Creator/TimothySpall as the Beadle all by virtue of giving better performances than Creator/JohnnyDepp as Sweeney Todd.

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* EnsembleDarkhorse: Creator/HelenaBonhamCarter as Mrs. Lovett, Creator/AlanRickman as Judge Turpin and Creator/TimothySpall as the Beadle all by virtue of giving better performances than Creator/JohnnyDepp as Sweeney Todd.Beadle.
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* EarWorm: Just ''try'' to get ANY of the songs out of your head after viewing the theater or movie version. It's bloody impossible (but delightfully so).
** Beadle deedle deedle deedle deedle dumpling beadle dumpling ba deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle deedle...

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** If you take a more favorable interpretation of Anthony, his part of "Johanna (Reprise)" becomes this, as it becomes a vow to Johanna, who at this point is locked away in a madhouse with God-knows-what being done to her, [[IWillFindYou that he]] ''[[DeclarationOfProtection will]]'' [[AlwaysSaveTheGirl find and rescue her]], [[{{Determinator no matter what]].

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** If you take a more favorable interpretation of Anthony, his part of "Johanna (Reprise)" becomes this, as it becomes a vow to Johanna, who at this point is locked away in a madhouse with God-knows-what being done to her, [[IWillFindYou that he]] ''[[DeclarationOfProtection will]]'' [[AlwaysSaveTheGirl find and rescue her]], [[{{Determinator [[{{Determinator}} no matter what]].



* JerkassWoobie: Mrs. Lovett, who is something of a LoveMartyr.

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* JerkassWoobie: JerkassWoobie:
**
Mrs. Lovett, who is something of a LoveMartyr.



* MoralEventHorizon: The "Poor Thing" scene with Judge Turpin and Lucy Barker, and the scene where Mrs. Lovett [[spoiler:locks Toby in the meat-grinder basement so Sweeney can kill him]].
** It was made clear that Mrs. Lovett understood what she was doing, since she was crying throughout. Creepy.

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* MoralEventHorizon: MoralEventHorizon:
**
The "Poor Thing" scene with Judge Turpin and Lucy Barker, and the in which he rapes her after having sent her husband away for life on a false charge. Then he just ''keeps going''.
** The
scene where Mrs. Lovett [[spoiler:locks Toby in the meat-grinder basement so Sweeney can kill him]]. \n** It was made clear that Mrs. Lovett understood what she was doing, since she was crying throughout. Creepy. [[spoiler:Though she probably crossed it even earlier when she deliberately hid the truth about Lucy from Sweeney]].
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* SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments:
** As tragic as the whole thing is, it's actually pretty sweet that [[spoiler:Lucy spends her days hanging around her old house, or the house where her daughter is now living. She doesn't remember or recognize Johanna, but she still has enough maternal instinct left to want to be near her]].
** While Sweeney doesn't kill a man who comes in with his daughter mostly for [[PragmaticVillainy practical reasons]], some products have him give her a piece of candy or something, [[PetTheDog which is nice]].
** If you take a more favorable interpretation of Anthony, his part of "Johanna (Reprise)" becomes this, as it becomes a vow to Johanna, who at this point is locked away in a madhouse with God-knows-what being done to her, [[IWillFindYou that he]] ''[[DeclarationOfProtection will]]'' [[AlwaysSaveTheGirl find and rescue her]], [[{{Determinator no matter what]].

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Approved by the thread.


!!Both Versions
* CompleteMonster: The corrupt [[HangingJudge Judge Turpin]], who runs a KangarooCourt in Victorian London, begins Sweeney's StartOfDarkness when, lusting after the then-younger barber's wife, Turpin has him imprisoned on a penal colony for decades of hard labor so he can seduce his wife. When she refuses, Turpin has her lured to his home under pretense of offering to free her husband--but rapes her instead, and steals her daughter as his ward. Turpin guards her jealously, having a younger sailor brutally beaten for looking at her and plans to [[WifeHusbandry marry her himself]]. When she refuses and tries to run away he sends her to an asylum where he knows she'll be mistreated. In the film, [[WouldHurtAChild Turpin sentences a little boy to death by hanging]]--and then asks his sidekick, the Beadle Bamford, if the boy was even guilty of anything.



* CompleteMonster: The corrupt [[HangingJudge Judge Turpin]], who runs a KangarooCourt in Victorian London, begins Sweeney's StartOfDarkness when, lusting after the then-younger barber's wife, Turpin has him imprisoned on a penal colony for decades of hard labor so he can seduce his wife. When she refuses, Turpin has her lured to his home under pretense of offering to free her husband--but rapes her instead, and steals her daughter as his ward. Turpin guards her jealously, having a younger sailor brutally beaten for looking at her and plans to [[WifeHusbandry marry her himself]]. When she refuses and tries to run away he sends her to an asylum where he knows she'll be mistreated. At another point, [[WouldHurtAChild Turpin sentences a little boy to death by hanging]]--and then asks his sidekick, the Beadle Bamford, if the boy was even guilty of anything.

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* CompleteMonster: [[BigBad Judge Turpin]], a corrupt HangingJudge in Victorian London, begins Sweeney's StartOfDarkness when, lusting after the then-younger barber's wife, Turpin has him imprisoned on a penal colony for decades of hard labor so he can seduce his wife. When she refuses, Turpin has her lured to his home under pretense of offering to free her husband--but rapes her instead, and steals her daughter as his ward. Turpin guards her jealously, having a younger sailor brutally beaten for looking at her and plans to [[WifeHusbandry marry her himself]]. When she refuses and tries to run away he sends her to an asylum where he knows she'll be mistreated. At another point, [[WouldHurtAChild Turpin sentences a little boy to death by hanging]]--and then asks his sidekick, the Beadle Bamford, if the boy was even guilty of anything.

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* CompleteMonster: [[BigBad The corrupt [[HangingJudge Judge Turpin]], who runs a corrupt HangingJudge KangarooCourt in Victorian London, begins Sweeney's StartOfDarkness when, lusting after the then-younger barber's wife, Turpin has him imprisoned on a penal colony for decades of hard labor so he can seduce his wife. When she refuses, Turpin has her lured to his home under pretense of offering to free her husband--but rapes her instead, and steals her daughter as his ward. Turpin guards her jealously, having a younger sailor brutally beaten for looking at her and plans to [[WifeHusbandry marry her himself]]. When she refuses and tries to run away he sends her to an asylum where he knows she'll be mistreated. At another point, [[WouldHurtAChild Turpin sentences a little boy to death by hanging]]--and then asks his sidekick, the Beadle Bamford, if the boy was even guilty of anything.

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* CompleteMonster: Judge Turpin is even worse than his musical counterpart. He is a corrupt HangingJudge in Victorian London and the man who begins Sweeney's start of darkness when, lusting after the then-younger barber's wife, Turpin has him imprisoned on a penal colony for decades of hard labor so he can seduce his wife. When she refuses, Turpin has her lured to his home under pretense of offering to free her husband- but rapes her instead, and steals her daughter as his ward. Turpin guards her jealously, having a younger sailor brutally beaten for ''looking'' at her and plans to marry her himself. When she refuses and tries to run away he sends her to an asylum where he knows she'll be mistreated. At another point, Turpin sentences a little boy to death by hanging...and then asks his sidekick, the Beadle Bamford, [[KangarooCourt if the boy was even guilty of anything.]]

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* CompleteMonster: [[BigBad Judge Turpin is even worse than his musical counterpart. He is Turpin]], a corrupt HangingJudge in Victorian London and the man who London, begins Sweeney's start of darkness StartOfDarkness when, lusting after the then-younger barber's wife, Turpin has him imprisoned on a penal colony for decades of hard labor so he can seduce his wife. When she refuses, Turpin has her lured to his home under pretense of offering to free her husband- but husband--but rapes her instead, and steals her daughter as his ward. Turpin guards her jealously, having a younger sailor brutally beaten for ''looking'' looking at her and plans to [[WifeHusbandry marry her himself.himself]]. When she refuses and tries to run away he sends her to an asylum where he knows she'll be mistreated. At another point, [[WouldHurtAChild Turpin sentences a little boy to death by hanging...and hanging]]--and then asks his sidekick, the Beadle Bamford, [[KangarooCourt if the boy was even guilty of anything.]]
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* AwesomeMusic: The quiet interplay between Turpin and Todd in the film's arrangement of "Pretty Women," especially as it builds to that crescendo at the very end.

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* AwesomeMusic: SugarWiki/AwesomeMusic: The quiet interplay between Turpin and Todd in the film's arrangement of "Pretty Women," especially as it builds to that crescendo at the very end.
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Cutting for re-evaluation. If anyone wants this back, please use the Cleanup Thread.


* MagnificentBastard: Sweeney, himself if you consider that apart from his general wit, he smartly tricked both Bamford and Judge Turpin to come to his barbershop.

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moved Deliberate Values Dissonance to Main page


* DeliberateValuesDissonance: The judge's sentencing of a young boy to hanging, though he is a four-time offender. The musical obviously wants to criticise [[MoralEventHorizon atrocities committed]] in the name of the law that were acceptable back then, as children were treated the same way as adults. This is noticeably shortened to one previous offense in the film to make it ''even worse''.


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-->'''Youtube comment:''' Pirelli thinks it's a good idea to threaten a man who has a bunch of razors.
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* DemotedToExtra: Johanna in the 2007 film version. One of the nine principal characters in the original play with a decent amount of stage and song time, Johanna is reduced to a nearly silent role in the film version and barely does ANYTHING outside of singing "Green Finch and Linnet Bird". Her other major songs and solos (Kiss Me, Kiss Me/Ladies in Their Sensitivities (Quartet), City on Fire, Ah Miss (reprise)) are cut, her portion of the "Johanna" Quartet is removed entirely, she doesn't shoot Fogg in the asylum, and much of her dialogue is trimmed. In the film, she acts purely as a personality-less macguffin and a living motivation for Anthony to do anything.
** Not as bad as Johanna, but the Beggar Woman also has a much smaller role in the film. Again, this is due to the cutting of most of her singing material (specifically No Place Like London, City on Fire, and The Beggar Woman's Lullaby), the overall trimming of her scenes (her interaction with Anthony during Ah Miss cuts her "Hey, hoy, sailor boy!" line), and now she doesn't interact with Sweeney at all until [[spoiler:her death scene.]] This renders the overall twist and ending much less effective than in the original play.
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* BrokenBase: As is normally the case with shows, trying to discuss whoever played the title role (or Mrs Lovett) the best ''will'' bring the normally-peaceful fandom into an uproar, particularly when limited to the versions available on film. There's also a minor BrokenBase over which concert version (2001 or 2014) was better in terms of spectacle and telling the story. Similarly the "child Toby" vs "mentally challenged Toby" debates quickly tend to become this.
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*** The song is still only one of two in the score that remains completely optional (the other being the second part of the contest), and plenty of productions do choose to omit it on account of its squick-factor. Sondheim himself has said that the primary reason for the song's existence was because he wanted to be the first person to have a character orgasm in the middle of a song...
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** Mrs Lovett in general. Is she a MagnificentBastard who is just as desperate as Todd to wreak vengeance on society, or is she a BrokenBird who is a victim more than anything? Is she genuinely in love with Todd, or is it more of a StalkerWithACrush deal? Does she [[spoiler:mislead Todd about his wife's death]] because she wants to protect him from the truth, or because, again, StalkerWithACrush? The movie probably gave her the most sympathetic portrayal to date but she's been played as everything from that to complete raging psychopath.
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** Todd probably more so. True, his [[KillEmAll method of vengeance once he snaps]] doesn't invite much sympathy, but his reasons for snapping? Just try not to feel the least bit sorry for him, you'll probably find it's nearly impossible.
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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: All over the place. Toby, for one. As the role is vocally demanding, adults are often cast in the part, which makes for the question of whether Toby is a kid or a mentally disabled man. For that note, the motives of the Beadle are ambiguous, whether he's a psychopath who's as bad as the judge or just a police officer who sincerely believes the judge is a good man. Then there's the matter of whether Anthony is a romantic hero who saves Johanna from the Judge or if he's a creepy stalker (though he's ''definitely'' a major step-up from Judge Turpin).

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* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: All over the place. Toby, for one. As the role is vocally demanding, adults are often cast in the part, which makes for the question of whether Toby is a kid or a mentally disabled man. For that note, the motives of the Beadle are ambiguous, whether he's a psychopath who's as bad as the judge or just a police officer who sincerely believes the judge is a good man. Then there's the matter of whether Anthony is a romantic hero who saves Johanna from the Judge or if he's a creepy stalker (though he's ''definitely'' (albeit a major ''major'' step-up from Judge Turpin).
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* LoveItOrHateIt: Critics, general audiences, and Sondheim, who was heavily consulted, himself love the film, but [[VocalMinority some serious fans of the stage show]] despise it. The main reason for the divide comes down to the performances, with fans of the film loving the actors in it, and haters of the film disliking the treatment of Sondheim's score, and the rather reserved performances not fitting with the main concept of Sweeney Todd as a melodrama.

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* DemotedToExtra: Johanna in the 2007 film version. One of the nine principal characters in the original play with a decent amount of stage and song time, Johanna is reduced to a nearly silent role in the film version and barely does ANYTHING outside of singing "Green Finch and Linnet Bird". Her other major songs and solos (Kiss Me, Kiss Me/Ladies in Their Sensitivities (Quartet), City on Fire, Ah Miss (reprise)) are cut, her portion of the "Johanna" Quartet is removed entirely, she doesn't shoot Fogg in the asylum, and much of her dialogue is trimmed. In the film, she acts purely as a personality-less macguffin and a living motivation for Anthony to do anything.
** Not as bad as Johanna, but the Beggar Woman also has a much smaller role in the film. Again, this is due to the cutting of most of her singing material (specifically No Place Like London, City on Fire, and The Beggar Woman's Lullaby), the overall trimming of her scenes (her interaction with Anthony during Ah Miss cuts her "Hey, hoy, sailor boy!" line), and now she doesn't interact with Sweeney at all until [[spoiler:her death scene.]] This renders the overall twist and ending much less effective than in the original play.


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* DemotedToExtra: Johanna in the 2007 film version. One of the nine principal characters in the original play with a decent amount of stage and song time, Johanna is reduced to a nearly silent role in the film version and barely does ANYTHING outside of singing "Green Finch and Linnet Bird". Her other major songs and solos (Kiss Me, Kiss Me/Ladies in Their Sensitivities (Quartet), City on Fire, Ah Miss (reprise)) are cut, her portion of the "Johanna" Quartet is removed entirely, she doesn't shoot Fogg in the asylum, and much of her dialogue is trimmed. In the film, she acts purely as a personality-less macguffin and a living motivation for Anthony to do anything.
** Not as bad as Johanna, but the Beggar Woman also has a much smaller role in the film. Again, this is due to the cutting of most of her singing material (specifically No Place Like London, City on Fire, and The Beggar Woman's Lullaby), the overall trimming of her scenes (her interaction with Anthony during Ah Miss cuts her "Hey, hoy, sailor boy!" line), and now she doesn't interact with Sweeney at all until [[spoiler:her death scene.]] This renders the overall twist and ending much less effective than in the original play.
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None

Added DiffLines:

* DemotedToExtra: Johanna in the 2007 film version. One of the nine principal characters in the original play with a decent amount of stage and song time, Johanna is reduced to a nearly silent role in the film version and barely does ANYTHING outside of singing "Green Finch and Linnet Bird". Her other major songs and solos (Kiss Me, Kiss Me/Ladies in Their Sensitivities (Quartet), City on Fire, Ah Miss (reprise)) are cut, her portion of the "Johanna" Quartet is removed entirely, she doesn't shoot Fogg in the asylum, and much of her dialogue is trimmed. In the film, she acts purely as a personality-less macguffin and a living motivation for Anthony to do anything.
**Not as bad as Johanna, but the Beggar Woman also has a much smaller role in the film. Again, this is due to the cutting of most of her singing material (specifically No Place Like London, City on Fire, and The Beggar Woman's Lullaby), the overall trimming of her scenes (her interaction with Anthony during Ah Miss cuts her "Hey, hoy, sailor boy!" line), and now she doesn't interact with Sweeney at all until [[spoiler:her death scene.]] This renders the overall twist and ending much less effective than in the original play.
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* LoveItOrHateIt: Critics, general audiences, and Sondheim, who was heavily consulted, himself love the film, but [[VocalMinority some serious fans of the stage show]] despise it. The main reason for the divide comes down to the performances, with fans of the film loving the actors in it, and haters feeling they're butchering Sondheim's score.

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* LoveItOrHateIt: Critics, general audiences, and Sondheim, who was heavily consulted, himself love the film, but [[VocalMinority some serious fans of the stage show]] despise it. The main reason for the divide comes down to the performances, with fans of the film loving the actors in it, and haters feeling they're butchering of the film disliking the treatment of Sondheim's score.score, and the rather reserved performances not fitting with the main concept of Sweeney Todd as a melodrama.
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** "It's only occasionally reinstated..". That's actually not true at all. While the song was cut from the original Broadway and London productions, and the film version, most modern productions choose to put the song back in as it adds so much to Turpin as a character. The song has been reinstated in the concert versions, the Spanish productions, the 2005 Broadway revival, the 2012 London revival, the 2017 Off-Broadway production, most regional theatre productions, and many more.
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** Judge Turpin, of all people, gets one depending on whether his song [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMA3fa-yO-k "Johanna"]] removed or not (that being said, it is so often removed [[NauseaFuel for]] [[{{Squick}} a]] [[BrainBleach good]] [[TooSpicyForYogSothoth reason]]). This song shows that he actually tried to resist the temptation Johanna was causing and even seems to imply that she was his MoralityPet. "Johanna, Johanna, I treasured you in innocence and loved you like a daughter".

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** Judge Turpin, of all people, gets one depending on whether his song [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMA3fa-yO-k "Johanna"]] removed or not (that being said, it is so often removed [[NauseaFuel for]] [[{{Squick}} a]] [[BrainBleach good]] [[TooSpicyForYogSothoth reason]]).not. This song shows that he actually tried to resist the temptation Johanna was causing and even seems to imply that she was his MoralityPet. "Johanna, Johanna, I treasured you in innocence and loved you like a daughter".
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* EnsembleDarkHorse: Helena Bonham Carter as Mrs. Lovett, Alan Rickman as Judge Turpin and Timothy Spall as the Beadle all by virtue of giving better performances than Johnny Depp as Sweeney Todd.

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* EnsembleDarkHorse: Helena Bonham Carter EnsembleDarkhorse: Creator/HelenaBonhamCarter as Mrs. Lovett, Alan Rickman Creator/AlanRickman as Judge Turpin and Timothy Spall Creator/TimothySpall as the Beadle all by virtue of giving better performances than Johnny Depp Creator/JohnnyDepp as Sweeney Todd.
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*** Depending on the performance, it can also come off as though he's rationalizing what he wants to do.

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