History YMMV / Robin

8th Aug '17 11:07:58 AM flyingfishcake
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* ToughActToFollow: Whenever there's a change in creative team for a Robin, fans are often split as to [[TheyChangedItNowItSucks whether or not the new writer does the character justice]]. Prime examples include Chuck Dixon for Tim, Judd Winick or Grant Morrison for Jason, and Grant Morrison or Peter Tomasi for Damian. With Dick, the trope is either TurnedUpToEleven or subverted entirely, due to the number of successful writers that have handled the character.

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* ToughActToFollow: Whenever there's a change in creative team for a Robin, fans are often split as to [[TheyChangedItNowItSucks whether or not the new writer does the character justice]]. Prime examples include Chuck Dixon for Tim, Judd Winick or Grant Morrison for Jason, and Grant Morrison or Peter Tomasi for Damian. With Dick, the trope is either TurnedUpToEleven or subverted entirely, due to the number of successful writers that have handled the character. Also see: MyRealDaddy.
8th Aug '17 11:07:26 AM flyingfishcake
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Added DiffLines:

* ToughActToFollow: Whenever there's a change in creative team for a Robin, fans are often split as to [[TheyChangedItNowItSucks whether or not the new writer does the character justice]]. Prime examples include Chuck Dixon for Tim, Judd Winick or Grant Morrison for Jason, and Grant Morrison or Peter Tomasi for Damian. With Dick, the trope is either TurnedUpToEleven or subverted entirely, due to the number of successful writers that have handled the character.
8th Aug '17 11:00:50 AM flyingfishcake
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** Jason, as Red Hood, also gets this treatment, often at the [[http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111253914/5680846-fgfgf.jpg hands of Damian]], as a KickTheSonOfABitch moment.
3rd Aug '17 6:37:23 PM flyingfishcake
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** Damian Wayne. Either he's a Woobie who just needs someone to believe in him (hello there, Dick) or a horribly arrogant, obnoxious, violent and cruel person who only gets to be Robin because of his last name.

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** Damian Wayne. Either he's a Woobie who just needs someone to believe in him (hello there, Dick) and has exhibited tremendous CharacterDevelopment over the course of several books, or a horribly arrogant, obnoxious, violent and cruel person who only gets to be Robin because of his last name.



** Damian for nearly murdering Tim in his first appearance. Also, for the multitudes of people he killed for the League of Assassins.

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** Damian for nearly murdering Tim in his first appearance. Also, for the multitudes of people he killed for the League of Assassins.



** Jason Todd gained quite a few fans as Red Hood when he first reappeared, although he was still the biggest BaseBreakingCharacter Robin. This has gone back and forth, with the character's portayal being panned in the likes of Bruce Jones's "Nightwing" run, "Battle For The Cowl", and the New 52 Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws. Seems to have finally taken hold in the DC Rebirth incarnation of Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws.

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** Jason Todd gained quite a few fans as Red Hood when he first reappeared, although he was still the biggest BaseBreakingCharacter Robin. This has gone back and forth, with the character's portayal being panned in the likes of Bruce Jones's "Nightwing" run, "Battle For The Cowl", and the New 52 Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws. Seems to have finally taken hold His status has arguably improved in the DC Rebirth incarnation of Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws.



** Damian Wayne, thanks to some nice character development and his relationship with Bruce and Dick, has become less of a BaseBreakingCharacter. Sort of.

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** Damian Wayne, thanks to some nice character development and his relationship with Bruce and Dick, has become less of a BaseBreakingCharacter. Sort of.
1st Aug '17 12:55:02 AM LorienTheYounger
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** Damian Wayne. Either he's a Woobie who just needs someone to believe in him (hello there, Dick) or a horribly arrogant, obnoxious and dangerously brutal person who only gets to be Robin because of his last name.

to:

** Damian Wayne. Either he's a Woobie who just needs someone to believe in him (hello there, Dick) or a horribly arrogant, obnoxious obnoxious, violent and dangerously brutal cruel person who only gets to be Robin because of his last name.
31st Jul '17 4:52:19 PM LorienTheYounger
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** Damian for nearly killing Tim in his first appearance. Also, for the multitudes of people he killed for the League of Assassins.

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** Damian for nearly killing murdering Tim in his first appearance. Also, for the multitudes of people he killed for the League of Assassins.



** The creators seem to be aware how much of their fanbase dislikes Damian, and while they continue to pusg him as a prominent character they'll take the opportunity to have other characters take him down a peg. Like [[http://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/imce/2016/11-NOV/TJH_11-4-2_581bdeb6296529.64840290.jpg this giant panel of Jon Kent gut-punching him.]]

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** The creators seem to be aware how much of their fanbase dislikes Damian, and while they continue to pusg push him as a prominent character they'll take the opportunity to have other characters take him down a peg. Like [[http://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/imce/2016/11-NOV/TJH_11-4-2_581bdeb6296529.64840290.jpg this giant panel of Jon Kent gut-punching him.]]
31st Jul '17 4:50:55 PM LorienTheYounger
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** Damian for beating up Tim in one of his earlier appearances. Also, for the times he's killed.
** Robin in general, gets a lot of crap for supposedly being a DistressedDude. While Dick played this role straight a lot in the 60s series and Schumaker films, generally Batman was captured with him, and in the comics themselves Dick then went on to found the Teen Titans and become TheHeart of the entire DCU as Nightwing. As noted in TrueArtIsAngsty, some people seem to think that Robin ''cannot'' work in live action, even if they're willing to admit he could work seriously in animated or comic form (which leads to some form of AnimationAgeGhetto mentalities).

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** Damian for beating up nearly killing Tim in one of his earlier appearances. first appearance. Also, for the times he's killed.
multitudes of people he killed for the League of Assassins.
** Robin in general, gets a lot of crap for supposedly being a DistressedDude. While Dick played this role straight a lot in the 60s series and Schumaker Schumacher films, generally Batman was captured with him, and in the comics themselves Dick then went on to found the Teen Titans and become TheHeart of the entire DCU as Nightwing. As noted in TrueArtIsAngsty, some people seem to think that Robin ''cannot'' work in live action, even if they're willing to admit he could work seriously in animated or comic form (which leads to some form of AnimationAgeGhetto mentalities).



** Jason Todd, but only briefly. His Red Hood persona seemed to have gained quite a few fans, although he was still the biggest BaseBreakingCharacter Robin. However, in the New 52, he seems to have returned to being TheScrappy, thanks to Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws being highly panned among critics and fans, as well as his generally inconsistent characterisation.

to:

** Jason Todd, but only briefly. His Red Hood persona seemed to have Todd gained quite a few fans, fans as Red Hood when he first reappeared, although he was still the biggest BaseBreakingCharacter Robin. However, This has gone back and forth, with the character's portayal being panned in the likes of Bruce Jones's "Nightwing" run, "Battle For The Cowl", and the New 52, he seems 52 Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws. Seems to have returned to being TheScrappy, thanks to Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws being highly panned among critics and fans, as well as his generally inconsistent characterisation.finally taken hold in the DC Rebirth incarnation of Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws.



** Damian Wayne, thanks to some nice character development and his relationship with Bruce and Dick, has become less of a BaseBreakingCharacter (although, like Jason, he still is one).

to:

** Damian Wayne, thanks to some nice character development and his relationship with Bruce and Dick, has become less of a BaseBreakingCharacter (although, like Jason, he still is one).BaseBreakingCharacter. Sort of.



** There have been multiple moments in which Damian, a character that's very notable for being RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap, [[CurbStompBattle beats the hell]] out of Jason, a character that has remained TheScrappy for so long.

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** There have been multiple moments in which The creators seem to be aware how much of their fanbase dislikes Damian, and while they continue to pusg him as a prominent character that's very notable for being RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap, [[CurbStompBattle beats they'll take the hell]] out opportunity to have other characters take him down a peg. Like [[http://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/imce/2016/11-NOV/TJH_11-4-2_581bdeb6296529.64840290.jpg this giant panel of Jason, a character that has remained TheScrappy for so long.Jon Kent gut-punching him.]]
31st Jul '17 4:35:15 PM LorienTheYounger
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** Jason Todd. Either he's a [[TheWoobie Woobie]] who's just misunderstood, or a murderous asshole who taints the Robin legacy. The fact that his characterization is inconsistent and [[DependingOnTheWriter heavily dependent on the writer]] doesn't help matters, nor does the widely panned writing of Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws or its sequel Comicbook/RedHoodArsenal.
** Damian Wayne. Either he's a Woobie who just needs someone to believe in him (hello there, Dick) or a horrible character that only gets to be Robin because of his last name. However, unlike Jason, Damian has undergone significant CharacterDevelopment since his debut, whereas Jason's portrayal vastly changes DependingOnTheWriter and thus is just as likely to have any development erased by AesopAmnesia.

to:

** Jason Todd. Either he's a [[TheWoobie Woobie]] who's just misunderstood, or a murderous asshole who taints the Robin legacy. The fact that his characterization is inconsistent and His [[DependingOnTheWriter heavily dependent on the writer]] inconsistent characterisation]] since his resurrection doesn't help matters, nor does the widely panned writing of Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws or its sequel Comicbook/RedHoodArsenal.
varying from "jokey antihero" to "bitter anti-villain" to "killer psychopath".
** Damian Wayne. Either he's a Woobie who just needs someone to believe in him (hello there, Dick) or a horrible character that horribly arrogant, obnoxious and dangerously brutal person who only gets to be Robin because of his last name. However, unlike Jason, Damian has undergone significant CharacterDevelopment since his debut, whereas Jason's portrayal vastly changes DependingOnTheWriter and thus is just as likely to have any development erased by AesopAmnesia.
23rd Jul '17 11:32:33 PM flyingfishcake
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** The New 52 version of Jason Todd receives a lot of this as well. Where he was previously a nuanced villain in WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood, the post-Comicbook/{{Flashpoint}} version of him is more of a cookie-cutter angsty anti-hero. It also doesn't help that he's been clumsily integrated back into the Bat family (most likely by editorial mandate), and is utilized as TheGenericGuy or for TheWorfEffect. That ''all'' of his post-Flashpoint series are written by Creator/ScottLobdell and have been lambasted by critics and fans alike also makes things worse.

to:

** The New 52 version of Jason Todd receives a lot of this as well. Where he was previously a nuanced villain in WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood, the post-Comicbook/{{Flashpoint}} version of him is more of a cookie-cutter angsty anti-hero. It also doesn't help that he's been clumsily integrated back into the Bat family (most likely by editorial mandate), and is utilized as TheGenericGuy or for TheWorfEffect. That ''all'' ''most'' of his post-Flashpoint series are written by Creator/ScottLobdell and have been lambasted by critics and fans alike also makes things worse.
23rd Jul '17 10:49:11 PM FuzzyBarbarian
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** Stephanie's StuffedInTheFridge treatment was (and still remains) controversial and many fans also take umbridge at her status as a former Robin being swept under the rug in the New52.

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** Stephanie's StuffedInTheFridge treatment was (and still remains) controversial and many fans also take umbridge at her status as a former Robin being swept under the rug in the New52. Others feel that her tenure as Robin was short-lived and relatively unimportant to her character and the Bat-mythos.



* CreatorsPet: The amount of doting Scott Lobdell does for Jason Todd at the expense of characterization and plot has turned most people away from Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws (and by extension its sequel Red Hood/Arsenal). It often shows up in the form of characters created for the sole purpose of CharacterShilling, or by downplaying other characters to make Jason look good. Even many fans that like Jason are a bit put off, partially because of his lack of regard for ShowDontTell, partially because they find many of the scenarios touched upon when writing Jason (such as Jason moving on from his past and healing from his trauma) to be an example of TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot and partly because of some UnfortunateImplications that has cropped up throughout his writing. Not helped by the fact that Lobdell's admitted in an interview that he cares more about action beats then character arcs or the perception that he views Jason as his personal self-insert.
* DorkAge: For Tim Drake, the period around 2004 to 2008 saw his TraumaCongaLine kick into high gear: his father was killed off in the controversial ''ComicBook/IdentityCrisis'' miniseries, his girlfriend and successor Stephanie Brown was killed in the hated War Games arc, his best friend Superboy was killed off in Infinite Crisis, and his ''other'' best friend Bart Allen was killed even later. This storm of angst combined with another infamous storyline remained a stain on the character's record until Chuck Dixon, Fabian Nicieza, and Chris Yost took on the book.

to:

* CreatorsPet: The amount of doting Scott Lobdell does for Jason Todd at the expense of characterization and plot has turned most people away from Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws (and by extension its sequel Red Hood/Arsenal). It often shows up in the form of characters created for the sole purpose of CharacterShilling, or by downplaying other characters to make Jason look good. Even many fans that like Jason are a bit put off, partially because of his lack of regard for ShowDontTell, partially because they find many of the scenarios touched upon when writing Jason (such as Jason moving on from his past and healing from his trauma) to be an example of TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot and partly because of some UnfortunateImplications that has cropped up throughout his writing. Not helped by the fact that Lobdell's admitted in an interview that he cares more about action beats then than character arcs or the perception that he views Jason as his personal self-insert.
* DorkAge: DorkAge:
**
For Tim Drake, the period around 2004 to 2008 saw his TraumaCongaLine kick into high gear: his father was killed off in the controversial ''ComicBook/IdentityCrisis'' miniseries, his girlfriend and successor Stephanie Brown was killed in the hated War Games arc, his best friend Superboy was killed off in Infinite Crisis, and his ''other'' best friend Bart Allen was killed even later. This storm of angst combined with another infamous storyline remained a stain on the character's record until Chuck Dixon, Fabian Nicieza, and Chris Yost took on the book.book.
** Tim entered ''another one'' with the New 52, where his character veered further into "Batman Jr." territory and his unique Robin traits were eliminated. He was now ''never'' an ordinary kid and was always a child prodigy at every skill he would need to be Robin. Instead of discovering Batman's identity on his own and realising that Bruce needed a Robin, he was now ''already'' being headhunted by Bruce and idiotically got on the Penguin's radar, which led to his family having to enter witness protection and thus him assuming the new identity of Tim Drake... yes, it's not even his real name.



** Tim Drake is considered to be this, for being a worthy successor to Dick.
** Carrie Kelley, who was introduced in ''ComicBook/TheDarkKnightReturns'', is well-liked by fans as well. She would finally making her way to the main DC Universe with ''ComicBook/TheNew52'', though not as Robin (despite being introduced after Damian's death).

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** Tim Drake is considered to be this, for being a worthy successor to Dick.
Dick and for being a competent character in his own right, separate from Batman.
** Carrie Kelley, who was introduced in ''ComicBook/TheDarkKnightReturns'', is well-liked by fans as well. She would finally making her way to the main DC Universe with ''ComicBook/TheNew52'', though not as Robin (despite being introduced after Damian's death).death and being teased as his successor).



** Steph for screwing over Gotham in "War Games".
** Damian for beating up Tim in one of his earlier appearances. Also, for the times he's killed.



* ReplacementScrappy: Pretty much every legacy to take on the role for either the one before them, or for Dick Grayson himself. Jason got so much vitriol it lead to killing him off, Steph's ''still'' not forgiven by some hardcore Robin fans for not 'earning' the role, and a big part of the reason Damian is seen as such a CreatorsPet is because of this. Tim seems to be the only one not to be hated due to being a HypercompetentSidekick KidHero who helped shrug off the reputation of being a DistressedDude, but even there, there is some fans who seem to see Dick Grayson as the ''only'' Robin and so hate him and the legacy for this reason (though, these are rare), and his New 52 version is pretty much this for his Post-Crisis version.

to:

* ReplacementScrappy: Pretty much every legacy to take on the role for either the one before them, or for Dick Grayson himself. Jason got so much vitriol it lead to killing him off, Steph's ''still'' not forgiven by some hardcore Robin fans for not 'earning' the role, and a big part of the reason Damian is seen as such a CreatorsPet is because of this. Tim seems to be the only one not to be hated due to being a HypercompetentSidekick KidHero who helped shrug off the reputation of being a DistressedDude, but even there, there is are some fans who seem to see Dick Grayson as the ''only'' Robin and so hate him and the legacy for this reason (though, these are rare), and his New 52 version is pretty much this for his Post-Crisis version.



** Jason Todd, but only briefly. His Red Hood persona seems to have gained quite a few fans, although he is still the biggest BaseBreakingCharacter Robin. However, in the New 52, he seems to have returned to being TheScrappy, thanks to Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws being highly panned among critics and fans.

to:

** Jason Todd, but only briefly. His Red Hood persona seems seemed to have gained quite a few fans, although he is was still the biggest BaseBreakingCharacter Robin. However, in the New 52, he seems to have returned to being TheScrappy, thanks to Comicbook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws being highly panned among critics and fans.fans, as well as his generally inconsistent characterisation.



** Jason Todd's death, the result of a call-in vote.
** However, various factors have come to light which muddle the issue. Many readers at the time were children, and couldn't make the not-so-cheap phone call. Also, in an interview, Dennis O'Neil recalls hearing a rumour that one guy had his computer call the number to have Jason killed multiple times. However, a few people also thought the vote was for Dick Grayson, and voted to keep Robin alive, thinking it was him, and that is ''not'' a rumour.

to:

** Jason Todd's death, the result of a call-in vote.
**
vote. However, various factors have come to light which muddle the issue. Many readers at the time were children, and couldn't make the not-so-cheap phone call. Also, in an interview, Dennis O'Neil recalls hearing a rumour that one guy had his computer call the number to have Jason killed multiple times. However, quite a few people also thought the vote was for Dick Grayson, and voted to keep Robin alive, thinking it was him, and that is ''not'' a rumour.



** The New 52 version of Jason Todd receives a lot of this as well. Where he was previously a nuanced villain in WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood, the post-Comicbook/{{Flashpoint}} version of him is more of a cookie-cutter angsty anti-hero. It also doesn't help that he's been clumsily integrated back into the Bat family (most likely by editorial mandate), and is utilized as TheGenericGuy or for TheWorfEffect. That his current series is written by Creator/ScottLobdell and has been lambasted by critics and fans alike also makes things worse.

to:

** The New 52 version of Jason Todd receives a lot of this as well. Where he was previously a nuanced villain in WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood, the post-Comicbook/{{Flashpoint}} version of him is more of a cookie-cutter angsty anti-hero. It also doesn't help that he's been clumsily integrated back into the Bat family (most likely by editorial mandate), and is utilized as TheGenericGuy or for TheWorfEffect. That ''all'' of his current post-Flashpoint series is are written by Creator/ScottLobdell and has have been lambasted by critics and fans alike also makes things worse.



** Dick Grayson's New 52 Robin outfit. Poor colour balance and unnecessary line work aside (that's the trend with the New 52), for some reason DC decided that a red arrow pointing towards his crotch was necessary, as if a thong would look good. Notable since ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} seemed to copy Nightwing's outfit when he was powered by the Phoenix Force, particularly Dick's red bird, and it seems Dick is returning the favour by taking Phoenix!Cyke's thong-arrow-thing.
** Tim Drake's two Red Robin costumes get this reaction from different segments of the fandom: the Pre-Flashpoint one has a cowl that sometimes gets called "Condom Head" and the overall look is reminiscent of older but sometimes forgotten character Doctor Midnight, but without anything to break up the black (Midnight had a crescent moon and green goggles). The ''New 52'' version, meanwhile, is often seen as too busy, highly derivative, and is sometimes called the "Swan Princess" look. The former costume also extends to Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, given they both wore it, too (albeit in Dick's case, in the {{Elseworlds}} story ''ComicBook/KingdomCome'').


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** Tim Drake's two Red Robin costumes get this reaction from different segments of the fandom: the Pre-Flashpoint one has a cowl that sometimes gets called "Condom Head" and the overall look is reminiscent of older but sometimes forgotten character Doctor Midnight, but without anything to break up the black (Midnight had a crescent moon and green goggles). The ''New 52'' version, meanwhile, is often seen as too busy, highly derivative, and is sometimes called the "Swan Princess" look. The former costume also extends to Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, given they both wore it, too (albeit in Dick's case, in the {{Elseworlds}} story ''ComicBook/KingdomCome'').
** Dick Grayson's New 52 Robin outfit. Poor colour balance and unnecessary line work aside (that's the trend with the New 52), for some reason DC decided that a red arrow pointing towards his crotch was necessary, as if a thong would look good. Notable since ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} seemed to copy Nightwing's outfit when he was powered by the Phoenix Force, particularly Dick's red bird, and it seems Dick is returning the favour by taking Phoenix!Cyke's thong-arrow-thing.
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