Line #31 YMMV/Robin


1	Robin series with their own YMMV pages:
2	[[index]]
3	* ''YMMV/RedRobin''
4	* ''YMMV/Robin1993''
5	* ''YMMV/Robin2021''
6	[[/index]]
7
8	----
9	* AlasPoorScrappy:
10	** [[spoiler: No matter how much you hated Damian, his death was a real TearJerker]]
11	** The same can be said for Jason Todd in ''A Death in the Family''.
12	** Even people who despise Stephanie Brown tend to hate the way she was killed off in "War Games".
13	* AngstWhatAngst: Go ahead. ''Try'' to find a comic with Tim Drake making a big deal over Stephanie Brown's "death". Her passing wound up being mostly overshadowed in his book by his father's passing in ''ComicBook/IdentityCrisis2004''.
14	* AudienceAlienatingEra:
15	** For Tim Drake, the period around 2004 to 2008 saw his TraumaCongaLine kick into high gear: his father was killed off in the controversial ''ComicBook/IdentityCrisis2004'' miniseries, his girlfriend and successor Stephanie Brown was killed in the hated "War Games" arc, his best friend Superboy was killed off in ''ComicBook/InfiniteCrisis'', and his ''other'' best friend Bart Allen was killed a short time later. This storm of angst combined with another infamous storyline remained a stain on the character's record and resulted in him being ''very'' depressing to read until Chuck Dixon, Fabian Nicieza, and Chris Yost took on the character with the tail-end of ''Robin'' and the ''Red Robin'' series.
16	** Tim entered ''another one'' with the New 52, where his character veered further into "Batman Jr." territory and his unique Robin traits were eliminated. He was now ''never'' an ordinary kid and was always a child prodigy at every skill he would need to be Robin. Instead of discovering Batman's identity on his own and realising that Bruce needed a Robin, he was now ''already'' being headhunted by Bruce and idiotically got on the Penguin's radar, which led to his family having to enter witness protection and thus him assuming the new identity of Tim Drake... yes, it's not even his real name.
17	** After leaving it to some extent with ''ComicBook/DetectiveComicsRebirth'', Tim entered it ''again'' with the infamous "Drake" period. Some consider this a wake-up call that DC has no idea where to take Tim's character. The name came from an evil alternate universe counterpart and Tim himself was relegated to the ''ComicBook/YoungJustice2019'' series, where he... meandered about. Luckily, at the very least the Drake costume and codename were removed, thanks to an in-universe intervention from the Batfamily.
18	* BaseBreakingCharacter:
19	** The Robin identity in general. Some people think the very idea of a brightly-colored minor running around and fighting criminals is ridiculous. Others consider it an [[AcceptableBreaksFromReality Acceptable Break from Reality]] to keep Batman from getting too grimdark. Others invoke the GrandfatherClause and say that whether it makes sense or not, it's part of comics tradition and too late to change. A lot of this really comes down to how people view the Batman franchise as a whole; if they think Batman ''should'' be a grounded, DarkerAndEdgier setting, the idea of Robin is a slap to that and the only way to make it work is to make Robin significantly darker too. If they think it should be dark but maintain the fantastical weirdness, Robin is generally better embraced, especially as the role is no weirder than Harley Quinn.
20	** Jason Todd. Either he's a [[TheWoobie Woobie]] who's just misunderstood, or a murderous asshole who taints the Robin legacy. His [[DependingOnTheWriter inconsistent characterisation]] since his resurrection doesn't help matters, varying from "jokey anti-hero" to "bitter anti-villain" to "killer psychopath", often from the same writer.
21	** What people want Jason ''to be'' is even divisive. Some prefer him to be a villainous reflection of Bruce and Dick, who is an enemy of the Bat-family and Bruce's great failure, while others prefer his anti-hero version and like him being integrated back into the Bat-family.
22	** Damian Wayne. Either he's a Woobie who just needs someone to believe in him (hello there, Dick) and has exhibited tremendous CharacterDevelopment over the course of several books, or he's a horribly arrogant, obnoxious, violent and cruel person who only gets to be Robin because of his last name. Tim Drake fans understandably take the most umbrage at him for directly, unceremoniously displacing Tim, and the comics have struggled to give Tim a relevant role ever since.
23	** Tim Drake slowly became one thanks to his life gradually getting darker and grimmer in various ways which were divisive for his fans, and then the New 52 period and its aftermath which erased and/or overhauled at best his prior history. For instance, he used to be defined as the Robin with his own stable home life outside of Batman's environment. Then he was orphaned like Bruce and taken in by him, his girlfriend Stephanie died (though she was brought back due to fan demand), his breezy Young Justice days ended and he and his peers got a lot more sullen and angsty as the revived Teen Titans, he got even more so after his friends Superboy and then Impulse/Kid Flash died (but also later came back due to fan demand), and he was arbitrarily let go as Robin in favor of Damian. Even after all that, he was slowly carving out his own niche as Red Robin. But all that got scuppered with the New 52. Many new fans have since been introduced to the franchise under Damian Wayne's tenure as Robin, and so have gotten used to him in the role. However, this meant Tim has meandered without any relevance since the reboot, not helped by him getting completely overhauled as a character in an attempt to make him more standout. Fans who are familiar with the character and how he was handled beforehand still prefer Tim and wish he got properly developed again, while fans who were never familiar with him or only became familiar in retrospect just see him as [[MiddleChildSyndrome the boring, redundant, placeholder middle child]] and don't see what's so appealing about him. This last bit is ironic because between Jason's death and resurrection, ''he'' was treated as the ill-fitting middle child Robin, but making him Red Hood redefined his dynamic with the rest of the Batfamily and gained him a new fanbase.
24	* BrokenBase:
25	** For Tim's Red Robin look: Condom head vs. Swan queen. Some feel the condom head look works because it takes inspiration from Batman and is just more practical, which reflects Tim's character. The swan queen look is liked for having some practicality in the cape. While nobody will say either is an amazing costume design, which one is better is up in the air. Both are generally considered stellar in comparison to his "Drake" costume though.
26	** Stephanie's StuffedInTheFridge treatment was (and still remains) controversial and many fans also take umbridge at her status as a former Robin being swept under the rug in the ComicBook/New52. Others feel that her tenure as Robin was short-lived and relatively unimportant to her character and the Bat-mythos.
27	** Fans who prefer one Robin over another get pretty furious whenever their preferred Robin is shown to be weaker than another. In online communities, Jason Todd fans launched multiple hate campaigns against ''ComicBook/{{Batman}}'' writer Tom King when he had Damian easily defeating Jason in ''ComicBook/RobinWar''.
28	** Damian vs. Tim is probably the biggest rivalry among the Robin fanbase, as people who prefer one tend to ''really'' dislike the other, since they are fundamentally different characters who in-universe can't stand each other. Tim fans like that he's a normal Robin who sought out the role and earned it against all odds, so they dislike Damian for getting the role purely due to nepotism. Damian fans like that he wrestles with his upbringing and darker nature, and find Tim very boring by comparison. Since the New 52, Damian was pushed as the "best Robin" and Tim was treated and written as a FailureHero in comparison, so for Tim fans they see this as Damian getting CharacterShilling while Tim is tossed aside, while Damian fans see this as Tim demonstrating his inferiority next to Damian. In 2020, Damian was given a controversial storyline where he descended into villainy, while Tim was slowly given more importance, which resulted in Damian fans saying his development was being ignored and he was being derailed so that Tim could return to the role (he was variously called Red Robin or just Robin during this time), while Tim fans found it fitting that he returned to prominence and that Damian would succumb to his darker urges like he did.
29	** Megan Fitzmartin's treatment of Tim Drake in the 2020s, and by extension her treatment of Stephanie Brown. On the one hand, many fans had predicted that Tim Drake was bisexual or at least not 100% straight, and are happy to have it finally acknowledged. Some however view this as coming out of nowhere and dislike changing characters' sexualities, for various reasons. On the middle ground, some believe that while Tim Drake coming out is a good thing, he didn't need to dump Steph so callously to set it up, and in fact, the attitude that he ''did'' is perceived as bi-erasure, and the sexuality development doesn't make up for other weaknesses in the writing. A common sentiment is that Tim's sexuality has been handled in a way that's more appealing to straight women than it actually is to bisexual men, not helped by the fact Steph was ''also'' popularly perceived as bisexual, and her being discarded feels insulting in this regard.
30	** Even among people who like the Robins, a major point of argument is the ''number'' of Robins. Supporters simply love all of the Robins and consider them the heart of the Bat-family almost to the point of eclipsing the man himself, to the point that "likes just the Robins and characters who interact with the Robins" is a fairly large subcategory of DC fandom. Detractors claim that the sheer number of Robins creates a very questionable timeline, and it clogs up Batman's supporting cast with four or five characters with redundant skillsets and backgrounds jockeying for panel time. Since any question about the number of Robins also turns into a question about which Robins ''should'' be kept in a hypothetical trimming-down, this makes it a particular flashpoint for debate. One thing that made this far more evident was the ComicBook/New52, which severely cut down on legacy characters in other franchises, but kept all four male Robins and at least the BroadStrokes of their careers in continuity--some saw it as blatant favoritism and a major contributor to the New 52's [[ContinuitySnarl famously messed-up continuity]], others saw it as proof that the characters involved are simply too independently popular and viable to be ditched.
31	* CreatorsPet:
32	** The amount of doting Scott Lobdell does for Jason Todd at the expense of characterization and plot has turned most people away from ''ComicBook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws'' (and by extension its sequel Red Hood/Arsenal). It often shows up in the form of characters created for the sole purpose of CharacterShilling, or by downplaying other characters to make Jason look good. Even many fans that like Jason are a bit put off, partially because of his lack of regard for ShowDontTell, partially because they find many of the scenarios touched upon when writing Jason (such as Jason moving on from his past and healing from his trauma) to be an example of TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot and partly because of some UnfortunateImplications that has cropped up throughout his writing. Not helped by the fact that Lobdell's admitted in an interview that he cares more about action beats than character arcs or the perception that he views Jason as his personal self-insert.
33	** Damian gets accused of this too. Not helped by him being a SpotLightStealingSquad for the other Robins at the time of his introduction and writers desperately trying to portray him as being better than the other Robins.
34	** Tim is one for James Tynion IV, which is something Tynion himself even partially admitted to. It’s especially notable in his run on [[ComicBook/DetectiveComicsRebirth Detective Comics]] and in the ''Titans of Tomorrow'' crossover.
35	* CrossoverShip: For some reason, there is a sizable Fanfiction shipping for WesternAnimation/MiraculousLadybug and the Robins, particularly pairing Damian Wayne and Marinette. Although the other Robins are paired with her too.
36	* EnsembleDarkhorse:
37	** Tim Drake is considered to be this, for being a worthy successor to Dick and for being a competent character in his own right, separate from Batman.
38	** Carrie Kelley, who was introduced in ''ComicBook/BatmanTheDarkKnightReturns'', is well-liked by fans as well. She would finally make her way to the main DC Universe with ''ComicBook/TheNew52'', though not as Robin (despite being introduced after Damian's death and being teased as his successor), although she ''was'' the fan-favourite candidate.
39	%%* IronWoobie: Stephanie Brown.
40	* FandomRivalry: The fans of a particular Robin can get pretty intense with fans of a different Robin, though it's not uncommon to find people who like multiple Robins (though it's rarer to find fans of all). To keep it short, aside from [[BigBrotherInstinct Dick and Tim]] or [[BigBrotherMentor Dick and Damian]] who are mostly friendly to each other, compare two Robins and expect fans to clash who is the better one.
41	* FanPreferredCouple:
42	** Dick Grayson has two, [[ComicBook/{{Starfire}} Koriand'r (AKA Starfire)]] thanks to the ''Teen Titan'' books and [[ComicBook/{{Oracle}} Barbara Gordon (AKA Batgirl I/ Oracle)]] due to Dixon establishing the groundwork. [[ShipToShipCombat Fans get heated over which one is better and that's all we'll say.]]
43	** Tim Drake and Stephanie Brown's relationship was developed for years by Chuck Dixon before they got together, and even after she was killed off, Tim's subsequent relationships (Cassie and Zoanne) didn't get remotely the same kind of positive attention.
44	* HardToAdaptWork: Robin is considered a classic mainstay of the ''Batman'' lore and superhero media in general... except when it comes to live-action media. The entire idea of Robin as a brightly-colored KidSidekick foil to Batman that [[KidAppealCharacter appeals to younger audiences]] has a much easier time getting accepted in more lighthearted or cartoony media like comics and animation, but many creators in film and TV have been a lot more hesitant to play Robin straight due to how garish and silly "The Boy Wonder" is as a concept, as well as the difficulties that come with casting a child actor who can fight. This has resulted in the likes of ''Series/Batman1966'' [[AgeLift aging him up to his late teens]], ''Film/BatmanForever'' and ''Film/BatmanAndRobin'' aging him up to young adult age ''and'' [[DarkerAndEdgier redesigning his costume to be darker and more in line with Batman's]], ''Series/Titans2018'' introducing him as [[AdaptationalAngstUpgrade especially angsty]] and having already split off from Batman, and other creators like Creator/TimBurton, Creator/ChristopherNolan, and Creator/ZackSnyder consciously avoiding Robin altogether because of how much he clashes with their interpretations of Batman and the movies they're in. It also doesn't seem to matter which [[LegacyCharacter incarnation of Robin]] is discussed, as even relatively darker ones like Jason Todd and Damian Wayne don't have enough of a popcultural foothold to make Robin more digestible in a darker, "realistic" medium without very significant alterations.
45	* JerkassWoobie: Jason Todd and Damian Wayne to different degrees. Both are arrogant and confrontational, and neither has any problem with lethal force, even if they'll reign it in when working with Batman. But their lives have been less than ideal:
46	** Jason was tortured to death by Joker and resurrected years later to a world where it seemed like his father-figure has all but replaced him, while Damian was raised by a death cult dedicated to his grandfather, Ra's Al Ghul and trained to be a remorseless killer while his mother only cared about him to the extent that he did what she wanted him to do.
47	** 2018 onward really seems to be hitting Damian hard. First, his best friend disappears only to come back years older and tell him he’s leaving again for the future permanently, robbing him of one of the most positive influences of his life. Then his adopted brother is shot in the head, surviving only to have a vast change in identity, robbing him of his other most positive influence. Then Alfred is killed by Bane in front of him due to an error in his own judgement. This causes a downward spiral where he regresses back to his more brutal ways killing criminals and pushing his fellow Teen Titans to lock up others illegally, causing a rift between them. And then Batman catches them in the act causing an argument between father and son which ended with Damian quitting. With every positive influence in his life gone, Damian is on a dark path as mentioned by the Legion.
48	* MainstreamObscurity: Ask anyone how many Robins are there, and expect people to be surprised that there's more than one or two Robins in the comics. Dick and Tim are usually who the general population know most thanks to the [[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries animated series]] and the VideoGame/BatmanArkhamSeries, though in recent years, DC's push to make Damian the central Robin in adaptations have made people more familiar with him and Dick. Essentially, everyone will know Dick and maybe one more.
49	* MemeticLoser: Non-comic fans usually think that Robin is this since he is usually shown to be a DistressedDude in his portrayal outside comics, mostly with the 1960's show with Burt Ward and the infamous ''Film/BatmanAndRobin'' film. Even Christian Bale shares the sentiment, stating he'd refuse to film anymore Batman movies if Robin were ever added to the franchise.
50	* {{Misblamed}}: InUniverse, whenever Jason's death is brought up, it's usually blamed for his temper and impulsiveness, rather than the actual cause, which was his biological mother, Sheila Haywood, leading him into a trap.
51	* MorePopularReplacement: Tim Drake was much more warmly welcomed by fans compared to Jason Todd. This is mostly because Jason himself was a ReplacementScrappy for Dick Grayson and also due to his excessively angsty nature. In contrast, Tim was the NiceGuy who meshed well with the rest of the Bat-family. Though Jason himself would end up undergoing a case of RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap after coming BackFromTheDead and took up the identity of Red Hood.
52	* MyRealDaddy:
53	** Chuck Dixon often gets this praise from Tim Drake fans, having defined the character, alongside a majority of the Batfamily as a whole, throughout the 90s and early 00s.
54	*** He also considers himself to be this for Stephanie Brown, though fans are just as (if not more) likely to regard Bryan Q. Miller to be this for his run on Batgirl, while they generally respect Dixon's work as her creator.
55	** Judd Winick is usually considered this for Jason Todd, due to his "Under the Hood" storyline and how pooly received ''ComicBook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws'' is. Though Grant Morrison is generally praised for his portrayal of Jason as a vigilante gone overboard.
56	* {{Narm}}: Tim Drake's identity of Red Robin can be hard to take seriously for readers familiar with the restaurant chain. His identity as "Drake" even moreso; besides the terrible costume, the in-universe given reason for the name Drake is laughable in how it failed to look up what type of bird a drake is before declaring it the "[[{{Narm}} most dangerous]]" (for reference, a drake is a male ''duck'').
57	* NeverLiveItDown:
58	** Dick for the short-shorts and pixie boots, combined with the [[HoYay homoerotic subtext between himself and Batman.]]
59	** Jason for the same costume more or less as Dick. Both in-universe and the readers always label him as "the angry Robin". As Robin, Jason was more impulsive than angry[[note]]For example, breaking into a drug lab that had no drugs in it to implicate the owners.[[/note]], the anger only showing up a handful of times, usually involving Two-Face, who killed Jason's father. Even the idea that he would go as far as murder was brought up in a few specific instances.
60	** Tim for his angst, and his own costume choices, going from "Condom Head" to the "Swan Queen."
61	** Steph for screwing over Gotham in "War Games".
62	** Damian for nearly murdering Tim and beheading the Spook in his first appearance
63	** Robin in general gets a lot of crap for supposedly being a DistressedDude. While Dick played this role straight a lot in the 60s TV show and Schumacher films, generally Batman was captured with him, and in the comics themselves Dick then went on to found the Teen Titans and become TheHeart of the entire DCU as Nightwing. As noted in HardToAdaptWork, some people seem to think that Robin ''cannot'' work in live-action, even if they're willing to admit he could work seriously in animated or comic form (which leads to some form of AnimationAgeGhetto mentalities).
64	* ReplacementScrappy: Pretty much every legacy to take on the role for either the one before them, or for Dick Grayson himself. Jason got so much vitriol it got him killed via voting, Steph's ''still'' not forgiven by some hardcore Robin fans for not 'earning' the role, and a big part of the reason Damian is seen as such a CreatorsPet is because he was made Robin seemingly just because of his last name and usurped Tim Drake. Duke Thomas also got lots of backlash when he was being teased as the new Robin, though it's died down since Damian's return. Tim seems to be the only one not to be hated due to being a HypercompetentSidekick KidHero who helped shrug off the reputation of being a DistressedDude, but even there, there are some fans who seem to see Dick Grayson as the ''only'' Robin and so hate him and the legacy for this reason (though, these are rare), and his New 52 version is pretty much this for his Post-Crisis version.
65	* RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap:
66	** Jason Todd gained quite a few fans as Red Hood when he first reappeared, although he was still the biggest BaseBreakingCharacter Robin. This has gone back and forth, with the character's portayal being panned in the likes of Bruce Jones's "Nightwing" run, "Battle For The Cowl", and Scott Lobdell's ''ComicBook/RedHoodAndTheOutlaws''.
67	** Stephanie Brown became a fan favorite thanks to her highly praised ''ComicBook/{{Batgirl\|2009}}'' series.
68	** Damian Wayne, thanks to some nice character development and his relationship with Bruce and Dick, has become less of a BaseBreakingCharacter.
69	** Duke Thomas became more liked after Damian's return and it being clear that he wasn't going to be the new, official Robin.
70	* TakeThatScrappy:
71	** Jason Todd's death, the result of a call-in vote. However, various factors have come to light which muddle the issue. Many readers at the time were children, and couldn't make the not-so-cheap phone call. Also, in an interview, Dennis O'Neil recalls hearing a rumour that one guy had his computer call the number to have Jason killed multiple times. However, quite a few people also thought the vote was for Dick Grayson, and voted to keep Robin alive, thinking it was him, and that is ''not'' a rumour.
72	** The creators seem to be aware how much some of their fanbase dislikes Damian, and while they continue to push him as a prominent character they'll take the opportunity to have other characters take him down a peg. Like [[http://www.dccomics.com/sites/default/files/imce/2016/11-NOV/TJH_11-4-2_581bdeb6296529.64840290.jpg this giant panel of Jon Kent gut-punching him.]]
73	** Jason, as Red Hood, also gets this treatment, often at the [[http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11125/111253914/5680846-fgfgf.jpg hands of Damian]], as a KickTheDog moment.
74	* TheyChangedItNowItSucks:
75	** The ''ComicBook/New52''[='=]s origin for Tim Drake is heavily criticized by many fans. Pre-boot, he was an intelligent, non-athletic nice guy and AudienceSurrogate who had the most "normal" upbringing of all the Robins and became Robin because he realized how important it was [[MoralityPet for Batman to have a Robin]]. In the New 52 continuity, he's an arrogant, friendless gymnast who has never been "Robin" and only ever been "Red Robin", he became Batman's sidekick because he wanted a challenge and his last name isn't really Drake.
76	** The New 52 version of Jason Todd receives a lot of this as well. Where he was previously a nuanced villain in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood'', the post-ComicBook/{{Flashpoint}} version of him is more of a cookie-cutter angsty anti-hero. It also doesn't help that he's been clumsily integrated back into the Bat family (most likely by editorial mandate), and is utilized as TheGenericGuy or for TheWorfEffect. That ''most'' of his post-Flashpoint series are written by Creator/ScottLobdell and have been lambasted by critics and fans alike also makes things worse.
77	* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: Tim Drake post-New 52. Before ''Flashpoint'', he was one of the most popular DC characters thanks to him being an AudienceSurrogate and even had his own book that lasted a long time. Post-New 52, his new characterization was not well received by fans and you'll be hard-pressed to find him featured in a story arc.
78	* TheWoobie: InUniverse, Tim was treated this way after he lost his father, his girlfriend Stephanie, and his best friend, ComicBook/{{Superboy}}, all in rapid succession.
79	* ToughActToFollow: Whenever there's a change in creative team for a Robin, fans are often split as to [[TheyChangedItNowItSucks whether or not the new writer does the character justice]].
80	** Dick: Due to the number of different writers who have been influential to the character (such as Marv Wolfman, Creator/ChuckDixon, Creator/GrantMorrison, Creator/ScottSnyder, Tom King and Tim Seeley), fans insist that only one creator truly understands the character, or fans are willing to accept different takes on him.
81	** Jason: As the writer of both the ''Under the Hood'' comic (and it's [[WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood adaptation]]), Creator/JuddWinick is considered MyRealDaddy for Jason Todd as Red Hood, though many do consider Red Hood's best story to be in ''ComicBook/BatmanGrantMorrison''. This is why the post-ComicBook/{{Flashpoint}} anti-hero Jason is often considered TheScrappy even in his own book, particularly when compared to the previously mentioned.
82	** Tim: Creator/ChuckDixon is widely considered to be the definitive writer, though the ComicBook/RedRobin series generally gets a fair amount of praise from Tim Drake fans.
83	** Damian: Most depictions of Damian are heavily (and often unfavorably) compared to how Creator/GrantMorrison and Peter Tomasi write him, with the former being his creator, and the latter having written well-loved runs that emphasize the warmer aspects of Damian's JerkWithAHeartOfGold traits.
84	* TrollingCreator: ComicBook/{{Batman}} writer Tom King posted a half-serious Batfamily combat rankings list that enraged fans to no extent, prompting other writers to get in on the fun as well. Some of the controversial picks included ranking both [[ComicBook/{{Batgirl}} Cassandra Cain]] and [[ComicBook/{{Nightwing}} Dick Grayson]] over Batman himself, and putting [[ComicBook/{{Robin}} Jason Todd and Tim Drake]] below some notable female characters. To add insult to injury, he also jokingly ranked Jason below Ace the Bathound in terms of intelligence.
85	* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: One of the major criticisms of the AuthorsSavingThrow that Stephanie was FakingtheDead and Bruce was aware. It makes Stephanie come off like she was trying to dodge responsibility in starting a gang war that got many people killed, especially since this isn't even acknowledged after she returns to Gotham (the ''Batgirl'' run implies that she's still got a fair amount of self-hatred for what happened, though it's still never mentioned outright). She also let her boyfriend think she was dead for seven months. Although she couldn't have known about Tim's TraumaCongaLine during that time, ''Bruce'' did. He could have let Tim know about his suspicions or let Steph know about the effect her death is having on him. Bruce suspecting she's alive means that he also chose not to seek her out to check on her or comfort her after she was tortured and almost killed. Instead of undoing a [[StuffedintheFridge fridging]] and absolving Batman of never seeming to care about her, it hurts Steph's character worse than the original story did and makes it seem even more like Batman just saw her as a tool.
86	* VindicatedByHistory: Stephanie Brown as Robin; at the time it was a controversial story, and for years even her fans wanted to forget about it, though some were annoyed at her not being included in the legacy. After ''Rebirth'', Steph's time as Robin was finally acknowledged and referenced, though the more damning details of it (Batman's abusive ManipulativeBastard treatment of her, and the following War Games event) have been ignored and seemingly retconned out (in fact, an anniversary special detailed a short story from this tenure and contradicted many of the elements, like having Batman share his secret identity with her, and giving her room to recover from mistakes rather than booting her after the first). Now, while people don't want her to exactly re-don the costume (though its acknowledged that the look of it is still really cute), they're more happy to include her among the boys, and just pretend her tenure was less traumatic than it was.
87	* WTHCostumingDepartment:
88	** While it gets a pass generally for GrandfatherClause reasons, the classic Robin outfit is seen as this for many people. Of course, the biggest issue is the uncovered legs, and one could make the argument that many of the people who deride it often have no problem with female characters baring the look, which leads to some DoubleStandard issues.
89	** The original Earth-2's Robin first costume as an adult, a bizarre mishmash of Robin and Batman's designs, having Batman's bodysuit, boots and gloves with Robin's domino mask and cape, with a mixed logo. Thankfully it was switched fairly soon afterwards to a better outfit (the same one used by Robin in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheBraveAndTheBold''), though the ''Convergence: Detective Comics'' tie-in brought back this outfit, which is even derided in-story.
90	** Tim Drake's two Red Robin costumes get this reaction from different segments of the fandom: the Pre-Flashpoint one has a cowl that sometimes gets called "Condom Head" and the overall look is reminiscent of older but sometimes forgotten character Doctor Midnight, but without anything to break up the black (Midnight had a crescent moon and green goggles). The ''New 52'' version, meanwhile, is often seen as too busy, highly derivative, and is sometimes called the "Swan Princess" look. The former costume also extends to Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, given they both wore it, too (albeit in Dick's case, in the {{Elseworlds}} story ''ComicBook/KingdomCome'').
91	** Dick Grayson's New 52 Robin outfit. Poor colour balance and unnecessary line work aside (that's the trend with the New 52), for some reason DC decided that a red arrow pointing towards his crotch was necessary, as if a thong would look good. Notable since ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} seemed to copy Nightwing's outfit when he was powered by the Phoenix Force, particularly Dick's red bird, and it seems Dick is returning the favour by taking Phoenix!Cyke's thong-arrow-thing.

Context YMMV / Robin