History YMMV / HonorHarrington

22nd Nov '17 3:09:50 PM Adeon
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** On the Havenite side Admiral Chin seems to have incredibly poor luck resulting in her getting ambushed both times she turns up (Hancock Station and The Battle of Manticore).
31st Oct '17 3:32:14 AM NNinja
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* RootingForTheEmpire: Late Haven under Pritchart vs Manticore under High Ridge government. [[ItsPersonal Elizabeth's issues about Haven]] didn't make the situation any better now that High Ridge is out.
15th Jul '17 11:19:05 PM ShorinBJ
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* {{Squick}}: One frequently overlooked effect of prolonged therapy is that it extends ''all'' stages of human development. Which, basically, means that legal adults still look like a bunch of middle school kids. It's specifically noted in ''War of Honor'' that one minor character, Anita Eisenberg, age twenty-eight, looks like she's about ''twelve'' (which incidentally makes the effects more pronounced than the prolong used in the usually-more-advanced Manticore; by comparison, Ragnhild Pavletic, age twenty-one and a recipient of third-generation prolong at a much earlier age than usual, looks thirteen), ''Honor in Exile'' offhandedly mentions that sexual relations between said aforementioned very-young looking crewmembers isn't unusual (and mandatory contraceptive implants are mentioned on and off in various books)... and then ''Crown of Slaves'' goes and makes it clear that most people are sexually active by age sixteen. [[LampshadeHanging Furiously lampshaded]] in ''The Shadow of Saganami'', where the people from backwater planets (where prolong hasn't been available yet) were acutely disturbed by this, and was noted in ''The Honor of the Queen'' (the second book, and first where prolong was brought up) when the Grayson characters first meet the Manticorans. This was later {{Retcon}}ned when it's mentioned that a part of prolong is receiving treatments in childhood that ''accelerate'' aging so that until adolescence is over, chronological and physical ages roughly match.

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* {{Squick}}: One frequently overlooked effect of prolonged Prolong therapy is that it extends ''all'' stages of human development. Which, basically, means that legal adults still look like a bunch of middle school kids. It's specifically noted in ''War of Honor'' that one minor character, Anita Eisenberg, age twenty-eight, looks like she's about ''twelve'' (which incidentally makes the effects more pronounced than the prolong Prolong used in the usually-more-advanced Manticore; by comparison, Ragnhild Pavletic, age twenty-one and a recipient of third-generation prolong Prolong at a much earlier age than usual, looks thirteen), ''Honor in Exile'' offhandedly mentions that sexual relations between said aforementioned very-young looking crewmembers isn't unusual (and mandatory contraceptive implants are mentioned on and off in various books)... and then ''Crown of Slaves'' goes and makes it clear that most people are sexually active by age sixteen. [[LampshadeHanging Furiously lampshaded]] in ''The Shadow of Saganami'', where the people from backwater planets (where prolong Prolong hasn't been available yet) were acutely disturbed by this, and was noted in ''The Honor of the Queen'' (the second book, and first where prolong Prolong was brought up) when the Grayson characters first meet the Manticorans. This was later {{Retcon}}ned when it's mentioned that a part of prolong Prolong is receiving treatments in childhood that ''accelerate'' aging so that until adolescence is over, chronological and physical ages roughly match.
1st May '17 7:18:13 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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* BrokenBase: A number of readers have complained it [[JumpingTheShark jumped the shark]] after about the fourth book—perhaps because they wanted it to continue being a light space opera rather than [[CerebusSyndrome morph into a political conspiracy epic]].
2nd Apr '17 7:34:24 AM ImperialMajestyXO
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* IKnewIt: The end of ''Mission of Honor'' features [[spoiler: Haven and Manticore allying against Manpower and the Solarian League]].
30th Mar '17 11:26:27 PM Occidensill
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** Perhaps as a response to people who see the People's Republic of Haven as a criticism of the welfare state, ''House of Steel'' mentions that several other star nations created their own versions of the Basic Living Standard, but they actually managed to make it ''work'', providing everyone with a reasonable standard of living without trashing their economies... until they got conquered by the PRH. Weber specifically noted that the PRH welfare system was a deliberate illustration of what happens when the welfare state goes wrong.

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** Perhaps as a response to people who see the People's Republic of Haven as a criticism of the welfare state, ''House of Steel'' mentions that several other star nations created their own versions of the Basic Living Standard, but they actually managed to make it ''work'', providing everyone with a reasonable standard of living without trashing their economies... until they got conquered by the PRH. Weber specifically noted that the PRH welfare system was a deliberate illustration of what happens when the welfare state goes wrong, as opposed to an assertion that any such system ''will'' go wrong.
16th Mar '17 9:54:33 PM Occidensill
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** In ''The Short Victorious War'', the idea of battlecruisers trumping ships of the wall is dismissed as impossible. Several books later, [[spoiler:Manticore does just that against the Sollies.]]
** ''Crown of Slaves'', [[spoiler: Berry Zilwicki claims that the only two things she would be good at are being a housewife or a queen. Guess what.]]

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** In ''The Short Victorious War'', the idea of battlecruisers trumping ships of the wall is dismissed as impossible. Several books 20 years in universe later, [[spoiler:Manticore does just that against the Sollies.]]
** In ''Crown of Slaves'', [[spoiler: Berry Zilwicki claims that the only two things she would be good at are being a housewife or a queen. Guess what.[[spoiler: By the end of the book, she has the latter job.]]



** Burdette's faction of Steadholders crosses it when they [[spoiler:sabotage a dome over a middle school]].

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** Burdette's faction of Steadholders crosses it when they [[spoiler:sabotage a dome over while a middle school]].elementary school class is visiting]].



** Francisca Yucel, who arrives in orbit over Mobius and proceeds to destroy multiple cities with [[OrbitalBombardment orbital kinetic strikes]], causing civilian deaths in the millions, in order to put down a popular revolt against the Solarian-backed government. [[spoiler: Aivars Terekhov destroys her entire headquarters with an orbital strike when he sees what she's done.]]

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** Francisca Yucel, who arrives in orbit over Mobius and proceeds to destroy multiple cities with [[OrbitalBombardment orbital kinetic strikes]], causing civilian deaths in the millions, in order to put down a popular revolt against the Solarian-backed government. [[spoiler: Aivars Terekhov destroys her entire headquarters with an orbital strike when he sees what she's done.done after a token effort to get her to surrender.]]
4th Feb '17 8:43:12 AM bibliophile20
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* CreatorsPet: In an oddly meta example, perhaps crossed-over a bit with MarySuetopia, the Star Kingdom of Manticore was showered with advantages by Weber, to the point where it can be hard to read the lines touting the point about how Manticorans have one of the highest standards of living in the human-settled galaxy. Three human-habitable planets needing minimal, if any, tweaks, check. The only telepathic/empathic alien species in the known galaxy in residence, and their members are protective of people, check. Uniquely far-sighted founders who set up a trust fund to have infrastructure sent ahead--a trust fund that managed to survive for half a millennium, and through Earth's "Final War" and delivered teachers and starships to the colonists when they arrived, check. The Manticoran Wormhole Junction and its economic (and social) benefits, check, especially the link to Beowulf. With all of those benefits stacked on top of each other, it's not hard to understand why Manticore is such an economically, socially, and technically advantaged society in comparison to everyone else.
2nd Feb '17 6:57:30 PM Nohbody
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** The climax of ''Echoes of Honor'' had Honor commanding an eclectic fleet of captured ships successfully defeating a larger PRN taskforce by not much more than pure luck and sloppy thinking of the task force personnel. In the next novel, when she's teaching at [[ServiceAcademy Saganami Island]] during her recovery from the imprisonment and escape, Michelle Henke breaks down all the ways it could have gone wrong, with an admonition from Honor that anyone seriously offering a similar solution to a tactical exercise problem will have several strips of hide ripped off them by her in a verbal flaying. [[CallBack Later in the book]], a Manty commander and his subordinate note that the enemy force is approaching them in a cautious manner. The subordinate quips that they may be trying to avoid any tricks like Lady Harrington tried. The commander asks why on Earth the Peeps would think he'd gone insane.

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** The climax of ''Echoes of Honor'' had Honor commanding an eclectic fleet of captured ships successfully defeating a larger PRN taskforce by not much more than pure luck and sloppy thinking of the task force personnel. In the next novel, when she's teaching at [[ServiceAcademy [[MilitaryAcademy Saganami Island]] during her recovery from the imprisonment and escape, Michelle Henke breaks down all the ways it could have gone wrong, with an admonition from Honor that anyone seriously offering a similar solution to a tactical exercise problem will have several strips of hide ripped off them by her in a verbal flaying. [[CallBack Later in the book]], a Manty commander and his subordinate note that the enemy force is approaching them in a cautious manner. The subordinate quips that they may be trying to avoid any tricks like Lady Harrington tried. The commander asks why on Earth the Peeps would think he'd gone insane.
2nd Feb '17 6:55:56 PM Nohbody
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** The destruction of the starships ''Sovereignty of the People'' and ''Equality'' by [[spoiler:[=StateSec=]]] during the coup that put [[spoiler:Saint-Just]] in power. Not exactly subtle, is it?

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** The Anvilicious Revolutionary France parallels go beyond just Rob S. Pierre: His co-conspirator and successor is [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Antoine_de_Saint-Just Oscar Saint-Just,]] his government is called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety Committee of Public Safety,]] characters repeatedly refer to his governance as a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror Reign of Terror,]] and his capital is [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris Nouveau Paris,]] where the revolutionaries end up having an important meeting [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_Court_Oath in a tennis court.]]
** The destruction of the starships ''Sovereignty of the People'' and ''Equality'' by [[spoiler:[=StateSec=]]] during the coup that put [[spoiler:Saint-Just]] in power. Not exactly subtle, power is it?a pretty blatant sign that extra emphasis is being put on the "Tyranny" part of PeoplesRepublicOfTyranny.



*** The Anvilicious Revolutionary France parallels go beyond just Rob S. Pierre: His co-conspirator and successor is [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Antoine_de_Saint-Just Oscar Saint-Just,]] his government is called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety Committee of Public Safety,]] characters repeatedly refer to his governance as a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror Reign of Terror,]] and his capital is [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris Nouveau Paris,]] where the revolutionaries end up having an important meeting [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_Court_Oath in a tennis court.]]



*** ''Shadow of Freedom'' gives us the fact that a repressive government's first action was to abolish the Right to Bear Arms.



** InternalDeconstruction: ''Echoes of Honor'' climaxes with [[spoiler:Honor's ragtag fleet of prisoners managing to completely surprise and destroy the Havenite task group coming to recapture and/or kill them. They don't even get a single missile off]].
*** Honor spends most of the next book, ''Ashes of Victory'', as an instructor at the Naval academy. When she makes a point about how complete surprise is more or less impossible, a student cites the previous point. In response, she makes several counterpoints. Primarily that she had several unusual advantages. Most importantly, ''her plan was completely insane''. Which made it unpredictable.
*** And then, Honor asks her best friend, Michelle Henke, to list some of the many, many ways the plan could've gone wrong. Henke shreds Honor's battle plan like tissue paper, notes that she could go on, and then says the following:
---->'''Henke''': All things considered, Her Grace's plan may not have been the single rashest, most foolhardy, do-or-die, all-or-nothing throw of the dice in the history of the Royal Manticoran —- or Grayson -— Navy. If it wasn't, however, I have so far failed to find the plan that ''was''.
*** Honor then proceeds to point out that a conventional battle plan would've resulted in a loss (due to not really having proper crews), and if she had failed, her entire force would've lost anyway[[note]]And if they had stayed on the planet, the narrative implied, they would've likely either been recaptured or killed -- or both.[[/note]]. She also says that if any of the students try ''anything'' like that in class, she'd say things that make Henke's criticisms look ''nice''.
*** [[CallBack Later in the book]], a Manty commander and his subordinate note that the enemy force is approaching them in a cautious manner. The subordinate quips that they may be trying to avoid any tricks like Lady Harrington tried. The commander asks why on Earth the Peeps would think he'd gone insane.

to:

** InternalDeconstruction: The climax of ''Echoes of Honor'' climaxes with [[spoiler:Honor's ragtag had Honor commanding an eclectic fleet of prisoners managing to completely surprise captured ships successfully defeating a larger PRN taskforce by not much more than pure luck and destroy sloppy thinking of the Havenite task group coming to recapture and/or kill them. They don't even get a single missile off]].
*** Honor spends most of
force personnel. In the next book, ''Ashes of Victory'', as an instructor novel, when she's teaching at [[ServiceAcademy Saganami Island]] during her recovery from the Naval academy. When she makes a point about how complete surprise is more or less impossible, a student cites the previous point. In response, she makes several counterpoints. Primarily that she had several unusual advantages. Most importantly, ''her plan was completely insane''. Which made it unpredictable.
*** And then, Honor asks her best friend,
imprisonment and escape, Michelle Henke, to list some of the many, many ways the plan could've gone wrong. Henke shreds Honor's battle plan like tissue paper, notes that she breaks down all the ways it could go on, and then says the following:
---->'''Henke''': All things considered, Her Grace's plan may not
have been the single rashest, most foolhardy, do-or-die, all-or-nothing throw of the dice in the history of the Royal Manticoran —- or Grayson -— Navy. If it wasn't, however, I have so far failed to find the plan that ''was''.
***
gone wrong, with an admonition from Honor then proceeds to point out that anyone seriously offering a conventional battle plan would've resulted similar solution to a tactical exercise problem will have several strips of hide ripped off them by her in a loss (due to not really having proper crews), and if she had failed, her entire force would've lost anyway[[note]]And if they had stayed on the planet, the narrative implied, they would've likely either been recaptured or killed -- or both.[[/note]]. She also says that if any of the students try ''anything'' like that in class, she'd say things that make Henke's criticisms look ''nice''.
***
verbal flaying. [[CallBack Later in the book]], a Manty commander and his subordinate note that the enemy force is approaching them in a cautious manner. The subordinate quips that they may be trying to avoid any tricks like Lady Harrington tried. The commander asks why on Earth the Peeps would think he'd gone insane.



* ContinuityLockout: The eleventh book, ''At All Costs'', marks the point where David Weber officially started assuming you've read all the spinoffs: events from both the Zilwicki/Cachat novels and the first of the new ''Saganami Island'' gaiden books are integral to a full understanding of the plot, and yet ''are not {{Infodump}}ed by the book itself'', merely alluded to in passing. Thank the Intercessor for TheWikiRule.
** 'Shadow of Victory' is at least partially designed to unite all the various spinoffs prior to the final book. However, it makes so the actual timeline advances only one day as various different thread, including those before the end of 'At All Costs' are brought up to the end of 'Shadow of Freedom' and 'Cauldron of Ghosts'.

to:

* ContinuityLockout: The eleventh book, ''At All Costs'', marks the point where David Weber officially started assuming you've read all the spinoffs: events from both the Zilwicki/Cachat novels and the first of the new ''Saganami Island'' gaiden books are integral to a full understanding of the plot, and yet ''are not {{Infodump}}ed by the book itself'', merely alluded to in passing. Thank the Intercessor for TheWikiRule.
**
TheWikiRule. 'Shadow of Victory' is at least partially designed to unite all the various spinoffs prior to the final book. However, it makes so the actual timeline advances only one day as various different thread, including those before the end of 'At All Costs' are brought up to the end of 'Shadow of Freedom' and 'Cauldron of Ghosts'.



** UnreliableNarrator: Can conveniently explain the second...the Grav Lance was too situational to work consistently in combat on a light vessel, and Honor never actually MET Hemphill! Also, as an AuthorsSavingThrow, ''Fearless'' had been simply seconded as a test bed that was never intended to go into service unless the weapon was extraordinarily successful (which it wasn't). Hemphill had never intended to throw away a perfectly good (if outdated) light cruiser and its crew; it simply happened due to circumstances beyond either woman's control.



** Honor considers Thomas Theisman to be one and Theisman seems to return the favor. Then there is Victor Cachat who proves to be a heavy weight contender for the title with his actions in ''Crown of Slaves.''
** While above examples are just contenders, Oscar Saint-Just and Albrecht Detweiler are ''the'' ones. With emphasis on the "bastard" part.
* MaryTzu: There are those who argue that Honor is one, or at least has become one over the years.

to:

** Honor considers Thomas Theisman to be one and Theisman seems to return the favor. Then there is Victor Cachat who proves to be a heavy weight contender for the title with his actions in ''Crown of Slaves.''
Slaves'', where he gets Manticoran assets and Erehwon's government cooperating in a scheme that benefits the People's Republic a little more than it does the other participants - one of whom is technically still at war with Haven.
** While above examples are just contenders, Oscar Saint-Just and Albrecht Detweiler are ''the'' ones. With emphasis on the "bastard" part.
* MaryTzu: There are those who argue that Honor is one, or at least has become one over the years.
part, manipulating many millions of people to act to suit their respective purposes.



* ProtectionFromEditors: ''Mission from Honor'' and ''A Rising Thunder'' have firmly moved the series from its ''HoratioHornblower'' focus on single deployments with a traditional narrative arc (setup, rising conflict, climax, aftermath) to an unwieldy "record of an ongoing period of time" format that embodies this trope. For example, if ''A Rising Thunder'' didn't have P v. E, it might not have taken a third of the book to reach the main cast, nor would the first three chapters have focused on one-shot {{Lower Deck Episode}}s that basically came down to "Operation Lacoön upsets Solarians and Manticoran shipping companies."

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* ProtectionFromEditors: ProtectionFromEditors:
**
''Mission from Honor'' and ''A Rising Thunder'' have firmly moved the series from its ''HoratioHornblower'' ''Literature/HoratioHornblower'' focus on single deployments with a traditional narrative arc (setup, rising conflict, climax, aftermath) to an unwieldy "record of an ongoing period of time" format that embodies this trope. For example, if ''A Rising Thunder'' didn't have P v. E, it might not have taken a third of the book to reach the main cast, nor would the first three chapters have focused on one-shot {{Lower Deck Episode}}s that basically came down to "Operation Lacoön upsets Solarians and Manticoran shipping companies."
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