History YMMV / Dogma

* DesignatedProtagonist: Bethany might just be the most forgettable major character in the View Askewniverse.

* CompleteMonster: God, never apologizing and never explaining. Everything in the Old Testament would qualify, but then again, all that's really necessary is that God is keeping Hell going and doing nothing about the tortures taking place there. Plus everything listed under JerkSue below. Admittedly, only the third characteristic on the page really consistently applies (though the [[DesignatedVillain *cough* villains]] do point out the second characteristic), but God's portrayal through the "sympathetic" characters is grossly at odds with its own actions.

* JerkSue: God.
** Starting with the wrathful phase, then still not forgiving Bartleby or Loki after S/he changed His/Her mind, and most obnoxiously of all, mocking Bethany for asking about the meaning of life. And yet, no one calls Him/Her out on this except for the villain, who [[DesignatedVillain happens to be arguably the most reasonable character because of it]].
** Well, it would probably be more accurate to say that God fit that bill in the Old Testament days. It is stated that He became less wrathful and vengeful later (Bartleby comments on how most of the old Hell-worthy sins were now obsolete). It was also hinted that God forgave Bartleby and Loki [[spoiler:before She killed Bartleby (when she held him and comforted him)]]. Also, I never saw God as mocking Bethany. From what the movie showed, life was quirky and strange and just hard to explain, doubly so for the divine. So it would make sense that the meaning of life wasn't something deep and profound but rather something quick and odd.
** God did, in fact, forgive Bartleby (and possibly Loki) as evident by her facial expressions but the decree was that they were to never enter Heaven. If they were allowed in, existence would be negated. Also, considering all of the bloody carnage they were committing [[spoiler: including Bartleby stabbing his own friend, Loki]] there's little reason to let them in by the end of the movie. They might've been sympathetic villains but they were villains nonetheless.
** Also it seems (based on Bartleby's reactions) that rather than sending them both to hell for their sins God instead made an exception and simply let them cease to exist, thus giving them a form of peace after all of their suffering.

* FridgeLogic[=/=]FauxlosophicNarration: "it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith." It makes a lot less sense than it sounds. Why is having faith in the wrong thing worse than no faith at all? And if none of the things are right or wrong, then what's wrong with not having faith in any of them?
** Faith is not limited to religion. You can believe in undefined deity, spirits, or science. To function in this world, we must have faith that the universe is mostly constant. It isn't important why we think it is, just that we do.

* ViewerGenderConfusion: For this troper and at least one friend of mine, Barret Hackney. Yes, the redheaded Triplet. Stop looking at me like that.
* WhatAnIdiot: A trigger-happy Jay almost causes the apocalypse.

** And angels, and the nature of man, and the Prophets, and other celestial beings... Hell, even Literature/TheBible is interpreted in a decidedly un-Catholic way. (Specifically, no, indulgences do ''not'' work the way the movie says they do, but the Protestant interpretation of [[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A19-21&version=NIV Matthew 6:19-21]] explains how {{Dogma}}'s indulgences work. This is [[LampshadeHanging lampshaded]] in the airport scene.)
* CompleteMonster: God, never apologizing and never explaining. Everything in the Old Testament would qualify, but then again, all that's really necessary is that God is keeping Hell going and doing nothing about the tortures taking place there. Plus everything listed under JerkassStu below. Admittedly, only the third characteristic on the page really consistently applies (though the [[DesignatedVillain *cough* villains]] do point out the second characteristic), but God's portrayal through the "sympathetic" characters is grossly at odds with its own actions.
* CrowningMusicOfAwesome: "Still" by God Herself, played over the end credits.

* FridgeLogic/Fauxlosophy: "it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith." It makes a lot less sense than it sounds. Why is having faith in the wrong thing worse than no faith at all? And if none of the things are right or wrong, then what's wrong with not having faith in any of them?

* ItWasHisSled: God being a woman, played by AlanisMorissette.
* JerkassStu: God.

** God did, in fact, forgive Bartleby (and possibly Loki) as evident by her facial expressions but the decree was that they were to never enter Heaven. If they were allowed in, existence would be negated. Also, considering all of the bloody carnage they were commiting [[spoiler: including Bartleby stabbing his own friend, Loki]] there's little reason to let them in by the end of the movie. They might've been sympathetic villains but they were villains nonetheless.

* MemeticSexGod: God Herself. Jay mentions when She kissed him, ''he popped a semi''.

** And angels, and the nature of man, and the Prophets, and other celestial beings... Hell, even TheBible is interpreted in a decidedly un-Catholic way. (Specifically, no, indulgences do ''not'' work the way the movie says they do, but the Protestant interpretation of [[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A19-21&version=NIV Matthew 6:19-21]] explains how {{Dogma}}'s indulgences work. This is [[LampshadeHanging lampshaded]] in the airport scene.)

** Starting with the wrathful phase, then still not forgiving Bartleby or Loki after S/he changed Her mind, and most obnoxiously of all, mocking Bethany for asking about the meaning of life. And yet, no one calls Him out on this except for the villain, who [[DesignatedVillain happens to be arguably the most reasonable character because of it]].
** Well it would probably be more accurate to say that God fit that bill in the Old Testament days. It is stated that He became less wrathful and vengeful later (Bartleby comments on how most of the old Hell-worthy sins were now obsolete). It was also hinted that God forgave Bartleby and Loki [[spoiler:before She killed Bartleby (when she held him and comforted him)]]. Also, I never saw God as mocking Bethany. From what the movie showed, life was quirky and strange and just hard to explain, doubly so for the divine. So it would make sense that the meaning of life wasn't something deep and profound but rather something quick and odd.

* LifeImitatesArt: As if "Buddy Christ" had not been MemeticMutation enough on its own, [[http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2011/aug/26/jesus-macho-makeover along comes this to make things interesting.]]

* AcceptableTargets: "Worse, Wisconsin." Note that this line was penned by a NewJersey native.

* AlternativeCharacterInterpretation: Of {{God}}, no less.

* FridgeBrilliance: As has been noted [[ConversationInTheMainPage many, many times on this page]], indulgences do ''not'' work the way the movie says they do. Then again, the movie is all about [[AlternateCharacterInterpretation alternate interpretation, be it of the Bible, angels, human beings, and even God himself]]. Why should indulgences be exempt from it?
** The ending provides a quite literal example of {{DeusExMachina}} when Bethany pulls God off life support. God out of the machine indeed.
** [[spoiler: Asrael spends over a million years in hell because he can't think of a way to get himself out but promptly locks onto a plan to get Loki and Bartlby back into heaven, and Serendipidy goes from inspiring 9/10ths of the top grossing movies to being stranded in a strip club because she has writers block. As muses they were meant to inspire others, [[CreativeSterility not themselves.]]]]
** Bethany's refusal at one point is screaming at Jay that "NOBODY is FUCKING ME!!" [[spoiler:Which turns out to be the literal truth, since the conception she has at the end of the film is immaculate -- the Virgin Mary, in a way.]]
*** Except that [[spoiler:immaculate conception and virgin birth aren't the same thing]], but who's counting?
* FridgeHorror[=/=]NauseaFuel[=/=]NightmareFuel[=/=]{{Squick}}: So, People crucified end up sh*tting themselves? Now think about it: This would include... [[spoiler:yep, Jesus himself]].
** [[TruthInTelevision People void their bowels when they die.]] [[WesternAnimation/TheVentureBrothers They don't usually show that part on TV.]]
*** [[SouthPark Hell, even a Wal Mart did it once.]]
* FridgeLogic:
** Loki and Bartleby are supposedly trapped in Wisconsin for all eternity, and yet they have the freedom to travel all the way to New Jersey.
*** By the time Loki and Bartleby start their journey to New Jersey, [[spoiler:God had already been trapped inside the body of the old man by Azrael's flunkies, meaning that God couldn't stop them from leaving Wisconsin]].
*** But if God stated they were supposed to stay in Wisconsin and they left wouldn't that end existence too?
*** This troper was under the impression that Wisconsin was just where the two were dropped off and nothing said they had to ''stay'' there.
*** It's the difference between what God commands one to do, and what God outright states as fact. God's commands can be defied (sin), but God's outright declarations cannot ('Bartleby and Loki will never reenter Heaven').
**** I'd say that the Metatron's statement "for the whole of human history" pretty much covers it. But if they followed the rules, we wouldn't have a movie. Oh wait, God is out of commission, which means the rules cannot be enforced.
** Rufus says that Jesus owes him twelve bucks, even though dollars didn't exist two thousand years ago, and presumably they wouldn't need American currency in heaven.
*** He's probably spent some time figuring out the exchange rate and adjusting for inflation.
** This movie postulates that Catholic Dogma (or even just a single Cardnial's interpretation of it) can doom the universe. What happens when millions of [[ChristianityIsCatholic Orthodox and Protestants]] disagree on what God decrees? Certainly, they all have dogma of their own. Wouldn't they cancel each other out? And if it's that easy to negate all of existence, wouldn't that mean that the universe has essentially been in grave danger for thousands of years as Christianity evolved and split apart into different denominations?
*** Since, again, ChristianityIsCatholic in the world of this movie, the mistakes by Orthodox and Protestants don't risk unmaking existence. (However, it does mean that everyone who lived in a period when Catholic doctrine taught that non-Catholics went to Hell is in trouble...)
**** It should also be noted that Catholic dogma was not the first Christian theology, so why would it matter more than older versions?
** Why didn't Metatron go with them and repeat his fiery entrance to get the church closed?
*** He didn't want to get hosed again.
*** Being [[SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism rather on the cynical side]], he'd probably just assume someone had slipped something into his drink.
*** Probably the same reason he sent humans to stop angels instead of sending an army of angels to the church; they were trying to keep a low profile because, of course, any proof of God's existence wastes the point of faith.

* JerkassStu: God. Starting with the wrathful phase, then still not forgiving Bartleby or Loki after S/he changed Her mind, and most obnoxiously of all, mocking Bethany for asking about the meaning of life. And yet, no one calls Him out on this except for the villain, who [[DesignatedVillain happens to be arguably the most reasonable character because of it]].
** I always thought God answered Bethany's question as well as any human could understand.
*** The whole thing only exists to suit God's whims? When God's been established as switching them at any time and never apologizing or explaining anything to humans? Why don't we want Bartleby to end the world again?
**** [[WhatAnIdiot Because all of existence would stop?]]
** The question was "What is the meaning of life?" or something like that, right? It seemed pretty obvious to me that the answer, [[spoiler:pantomimed as a nose pinch]], could best be expressed verbally as [[spoiler:"fun"]].
*** After reading the above, this troper considers it a wonderful case of FridgeBrilliance.
**** Actually in a deleted scene [[spoiler:it turns out that the answer is the punchline from one of GeorgeCarlin's stand-up routines "plastic".]] Cardinal Glick is more than meets the eye.
***** More likely, Carlin got the punchline from the same place Smith said he got the idea for God's answer: ''TheGraduate''.

*** Also it seems (based on Bartleby's reactions) that rather than sending them both to hell for their sins God instead made an exception and simply let them cease to exist, thus giving them a form of peace after all of their suffering.

** This troper had a surprisingly good painting of the "Buddy Christ" statue ''in the entryway to her Catholic high school''. The art classes at her school are full of snarky atheists. These facts are directly related.
** TheRedStapler: It's for real, too. In bobblehead form.

* TheWoobie: Loki, oddly enough.
** Bartleby is [[WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds arguably one as well]]. He ''was'' the one most sympathetic to and fond of Humanity, a viewpoint he held from Biblical times up until that night on the Jersey-bound train.
** Bartleby breaks down in tears when he sees God again for the first time in several millenia. That's when you realize that he is essentially a child who has been abandoned by his mother.
** Metatron feels this way about Jesus, after he told him how his life would turn out: "He begged me to 'make it all not true'... If I had the power, I would have."

* WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds: Azreal, who would rather not exist (and take the universe down with him) than stay in Hell any longer. Later, [[spoiler:Bartleby]] becomes one as well, because of the [[spoiler: unfairness of God loving humans more than angels.]]

** [[TruthInTelevision People void their bowels when they die.]] [[VentureBros They don't usually show that part on TV.]]

* CompleteMonster: God, never apologizing and never explaining. Everything in the Old Testament would qualify, but then again, all that's really necessary is that God is keeping Hell going and doing nothing about the tortures taking place there. Plus everything listed under JerkassStu below.

* YouFailReligiousStudiesForever: The concept of Plenary Indulgence used in the movie is wrong. Multiple characters (angels and a cardinal) describe it as a clean slate, and the forgiveness and removal of all sins. It's not it. Plenary Indulgence is the removal of need for temporal punishments - It does not remove nor wipe out a person's sins.
** Pope Carlin changed the definition when he phrased it the way he did. Catholic dogma says that what the Pope says, goes based on a line said to Peter by Jesus in the Bible. It works, [[MST3KMantra if you don't think about it too much.]]
** Pope [[GeorgeCarlin Carlin?]]. Heh, that's amusing.
*** Er, technically he was a Cardinal, but the movie did say that whatever the Catholic Church states applies in heaven, so I guess the power vested in the Pope applies to authorities of his blessed church.
*** Also, wouldn't being banished to earth count as a temporal punishment? If so, then the plot works...
** Infallibility isn't even correctly defined in the film. The Pope only has complete infallibility when he speaks ''ex cathedra'' (literally "from the chair"). This has happened exactly once in the course of complete Church history: to define the Catholic dogma of the Assumption of Mary.
** The film also states that angels are sexless, even though in the bible they fathered children. And that the existence of brothers and sisters of Jesus is concealed by some great church conspiracy, despite the fact that they are mentioned in 4 separate books of the New Testament.
*** A deleted scene of the film also mentions angels previously having sex with humans and God later revoking the angels genitalia in a similar fashion as his forbidding them from drinking alcohol. I guess somebody didn't like the Nephilim.
*** Also, the Catholic Bible maintains that Mary was a virgin and never had any children besides Jesus. (Yes, Catholics use a different Bible than Protestants.)
**** This is a deliberate divergence from dogma, as pointed out by Rufus, who says the official position is crazy ("a virgin birth, sure, but a married couple never having sex?"). It may still violate actual Catholic dogma, but just like God being a woman and Jesus being black, this is intentional.
**** Catholic TRADITION maintains Mary remained a virgin all her life. The Catholic Bible is mum on the subject because it just contains some Old Testament books not included in Protestant Bibles.
** Jesus' age and maturity. Rufus claims we know nothing about Jesus from 12 to 33 because of censorship. Actually, the gospels don't mention much at all before his ministry at 33. The 12 years old thing is a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finding_in_the_Temple single appearance]] when he demonstrates his supernatural spiritual knowledge. This undermines the idea of Jesus' grief a bit, although it is actually canon in Gethsemane... at 33. The whole idea that Jesus "came upon" his status is one of the oldest heresies called Adoptionism.
** Jesus' siblings. There is one passage where Jesus mentions some people in terms, [[JapaneseSiblingTerminology like in many languages]], which are ambiguous and can mean brothers, cousins, or just kin. The problem is while Rufus says there's nothing in the Bible that Mary ''stayed'' a virgin during marriage (even saying that believing a young married couple such as Mary and Joe didn't make love was "just plain old gullibility"), The Orthodox church believes it, the Pope believes it and even Martin Luther believed it. Most Protestants, though, do not believe it, and the passage in Matthew where Joseph learns about Mary's divine pregnancy only says they didn't have marital relations ''until'' after Jesus was born.
*** Actually, it's supported by Mark 3:31-35, where Jesus' "mother and brothers" show up to talk to him and he proclaims that instead his followers are his "mother and brothers", indicating that he had biological siblings.
** Fatal theophany (i.e. you see God, you die), isn't very clearly an attribute of God, which makes Metatron a little redundant. It's most definitely a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#Seduction_by_Zeus_and_birth_of_Dionysus Zeus thing]]. Although He strongly implies in Exodus 19 and applies to His face in Exodus 33, He doesn't use it on those he chooses to appear to and since he doesn't appear when he doesn't want to, he hasn't actually used it. And of course, not being Zeus, he could restrain if when He wanted to.
*** It is, however, an element of seraphim. There's a ''reason'' they're cloaked in six wings...
*** The movie doesn't claim you dying from SEEING God. Metatron is God's VOICE. The claim is that if you HEAR God's voice unprotected, you die.
*** Kevin Smith made up neither the Metatron nor the reason for his function. Both are completely legitimate real-world angelology. He didn't make up the five Adams, either. According to some Kabbalistic traditions, God really did need to make first drafts of both the Universe (resulting in the Qlippoth) and Adam. (FridgeLogic: Shouldn't an omniscient being be able to see that?)
**** Unfortunately, there is a bit of a screw up involving Metatron with only 2 wings; Metatron is supposed to have '''36''' wings. He also is supposed to have eyes and mouths all over his body (with each mouth said to speak a different language). But that'd be impossible to show for a film with a small budget.
***** Then Again if he did show his true form Bethany might have went insane. Plus, he wouldn't have fit in her bedroom.

** Bethany, as indicated by her backstory: She got pregnant in college, and her boyfriend told her to have it or he would leave her. [[TakeAThirdOption Instead, she had what was basically a back-alley abortion and told him she'd miscarried.]] This led to an infection that rendered her infertile, which she didn't find out until after she and her boyfriend had gotten married and spent half a year trying to get pregnant. After she confessed all of this to him, sobbing the whole time, [[{{Jerkass}} he coldly asked her for a divorce]]. Poor girl; she needs a hug. ''Badly''.

**** This is a deliberate divergence from dogma, as pointed out by Rufus, who says the official position is crazy ("a virgin birth, sure, but a married couple never having sex?"). It may still violate actual Catholic dogma, but just like God being a woman and Jesus being black, this is intentional.

* WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds: Azreal and later [[spoiler:Bartleby]].

*** Kevin Smith made up neither the Metatron nor the reason for his function. Both are completely legitimate real-world angelology. He didn't make up the five Adams, either. According to some Kabbalistic traditions, God really did need to make first drafts of both the Universe (resulting in the Qlippoth) and Adam.
**** Unfortunately, there is a bit of a screw up involving Metatron with only 2 wings; Metatron is supposed to have '''36''' wings. He also is supposed to have eyes and mouths all over his body (with each mouth said to speak a different language).