Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Main / JesusWasCrazy

Go To

OR

Added: 433

Changed: 24

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None



to:

[[folder:Anime & Manga]]
* [[DownplayedTrope Downplayed]] in ''Manga/RecordOfRagnarok''. In this setting [[AllMythsAreTrue every pagan religion is correct]], and in the struggle between [[RageAgainstTheHeavens humanity and the multiple pantheons of deities]] Jesus is depicted as firmly on the human side. Despite not being the divine figure He purported to be, He's still shown as a respected philosopher alongside Buddha, Socrates and Confucius.
[[/folder]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* ''VideoGame/ViewFromBelow'': Jynx the Quiz Master and other lore events reveal that [[spoiler:the Crimson God is actually Jesus himself, who believed he sacrificed himself in vain and never forgave his persecutors, causing him to become a misanthrope who wants to wipe out humanity]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Creator/MichaelMoorcock's ''Behold the Man'' is a definite case of this with a mentally retarded and deformed Jesus that [[YouWillBeBeethoven the time traveler winds up replacing]] so that the stories come out right.

to:

* Creator/MichaelMoorcock's ''Behold the Man'' is a definite case of this with a mentally retarded handicapped and deformed Jesus that [[YouWillBeBeethoven the time traveler winds up replacing]] so that the stories come out right.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* ''VideoGame/FearAndHungerTermina'': Played with. The in-universe equivalent of Jesus, Alll-mer, has an extremely similar story to the Bible's Jesus, right down to being a "mortal" born to a virgin mother, who gained twelve apostles and was ultimately crucified. The story diverges in that after his ascension, Alll-mer was [[{{Revenge}} driven by vengeance]], slaughtering the kings and sultans who ordered his death and forming a new world order with himself at the center.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Webcomic/GhastlysGhastlyComic put forward the idea of multiple Jesuses (Jesi?), who tend to represent the various "faces" of Christ as interpreted by his followers and the general public (with the possible exception of Drunk and Bitter Jesus, who is pretty much how Jesus would feel if he were alive to see the way the other Jesuses act). Jesus Was Crazy is Fark.com Jesus, who carries an awful lot of artillery for a guy who said "Blessed are the peacemakers".

to:

* Webcomic/GhastlysGhastlyComic ''Webcomic/GhastlysGhastlyComic'' put forward the idea of multiple Jesuses (Jesi?), who tend to represent the various "faces" of Christ as interpreted by his followers and the general public (with the possible exception of Drunk and Bitter Jesus, who is pretty much how Jesus would feel if he were alive to see the way the other Jesuses act). Jesus Was Crazy is Fark.com Jesus, who carries an awful lot of artillery for a guy who said "Blessed are the peacemakers".
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* A number of psychiatrists (eg. Charles Binet-Sanglé, WÅ‚adysÅ‚aw Witwicki, Lemuel K. Washburn) theorized that Jesus' mental health was compromised. There are a number of occasions in the New Testament when Jesus is called insane or "beside himself", and analysis of his speeches and behavior suggests some issue - a bipolar disorder, suicidal depression, frontal lobe epilepsy or paranoid schizophrenia are mentioned. (This would explain one of the bigger mysteries of Jesus - per the Gospels, he was tried and executed as a royal pretender, but his disciples were spared, while the standard Roman procedure would be to try and execute all potential co-insurgents along with the leader. The fact that Jesus was, in fact, considered not a rebel leader, but a loud and generally harmless madman, was put forth as an explanation to this.)

to:

* A number of psychiatrists (eg. Charles Binet-Sanglé, WÅ‚adysÅ‚aw Witwicki, Lemuel K. Washburn) theorized that Jesus' mental health was compromised. There are a number of occasions in the New Testament when Jesus is called insane or "beside himself", and analysis of his speeches and behavior suggests some issue - a bipolar disorder, suicidal depression, frontal lobe epilepsy or paranoid schizophrenia are mentioned. (This would explain one of the bigger mysteries of Jesus as a purely historical figure - per the Gospels, he was tried and executed as a royal pretender, but his disciples were spared, while the standard Roman procedure would be to try and execute all potential co-insurgents along with the leader. The fact that Jesus was, in fact, considered not a rebel leader, but a loud and generally harmless madman, was put forth as an explanation to this.)
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* A number of psychiatrists (eg. Charles Binet-Sanglé, WÅ‚adysÅ‚aw Witwicki, Lemuel K. Washburn) theorized that Jesus' mental health was compromised. There are a number of occasions in the New Testament when Jesus is called insane or "beside himself", and analysis of his speeches and behavior suggests some issue - a bipolar disorder, suicidal depression, frontal lobe epilepsy or paranoid schizophrenia are mentioned. (This would explain one of the bigger mysteries of Jesus - per the Gospels, he was tried and executed as a royal pretender, but his disciples were spared, while the standard Roman procedure would be to try and execute all potential co-insurgents along with the leader. The fact that Jesus was, in fact, considered not a rebel leader, but a loud and generally harmless madman, was put forth as an explanation to this.)
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy'': Many episodes -– those with spot gags on religion and others focusing on the Christian faith -– depict Jesus as immoral, rebellious and at one time not even Christian. In "Family Goy", he even suggests that all religions are the same and that it doesn't matter which one one picks because they're "all complete crap" (to which [[HollywoodAtheist Brian]] –- offscreen - shouts "Thank you!").

to:

* ''WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy'': Many episodes -– - those with spot gags on religion and others focusing on the Christian faith -– - depict Jesus as immoral, rebellious and at one time not even Christian. In "Family Goy", he even suggests that all religions are the same and that it doesn't matter which one one picks because they're "all complete crap" (to which [[HollywoodAtheist Brian]] –- - offscreen - shouts "Thank you!").
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* The Swedish comic ''[[http://mikaelsol.se/images/pjesus.jpg Personal-Jesus]]'' (with the hyphen in the name) plays a lot with the lighter side of crazy. The name itself is a wordplay: The Swedish word "personal" means "staff" or "human resources" (ergo, personnel) and is pronounced differently from the English word that is spelled the same way. In this quite surreal setting, Jesus Christ can indeed walk on water and everything, but for some reason he works in an ordinary office and creates general mayhem - getting his coworkers drunk as he turns water into wine at the worst possible moments, and so on.

to:

* The Swedish comic ''[[http://mikaelsol.se/images/pjesus.jpg Personal-Jesus]]'' (with the hyphen in the name) plays a lot with the lighter side of crazy. The name itself is a wordplay: The Swedish word "personal" means "staff" or "human resources" (ergo, personnel) and is pronounced differently from the English word that is spelled the same way. In this quite surreal setting, Jesus Christ can indeed walk on water and everything, but for some reason he works in an ordinary office and creates general mayhem - -- getting his coworkers drunk as he turns water into wine at the worst possible moments, and so on.



* ''WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy'': Many episodes – those with spot gags on religion and others focusing on the Christian faith – depict Jesus as immoral, rebellious and at one time not even Christian. In "Family Goy", he even suggests that all religions are the same and that it doesn't matter which one one picks because they're "all complete crap" (to which [[HollywoodAtheist Brian]] – offscreen – shouts "Thank you!").

to:

* ''WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy'': Many episodes -– those with spot gags on religion and others focusing on the Christian faith -– depict Jesus as immoral, rebellious and at one time not even Christian. In "Family Goy", he even suggests that all religions are the same and that it doesn't matter which one one picks because they're "all complete crap" (to which [[HollywoodAtheist Brian]] –- offscreen - shouts "Thank you!").
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* ''The WebAnimation/UnbiasedHistory of Rome'' mentioned Jesus very briefly in the episode "Mad Emperors", but merely as "some Jew with god delusions" who got nailed to a cross, given that the life of some Hebrew in a backwater province wouldn't be relevant to Roman history until much later. The followers of his teachings were still portrayed as an active thorn on Rome's side, [[spoiler:but the trope turns out to be subverted as in the episode on Constantine, Jesus himself was portrayed as a Chadly figure, and another incarnation of the pantheon to help ease the transition to Christianity]].
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Holy Natter, Batman! Nobody needs that many Justifying Edits.


* This is a component of the Christian apologist argument called "Lord/Liar/Lunatic", popularised by Creator/CSLewis, which is ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin. The argument is usually preceded by an argument about a historical Jesus or the veracity of biblical accounts, but then goes on to argue that with the various claims attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, he must be lying, crazy or an actual deity. This is generally a response to those who view Jesus as a good teacher but not a divine one. However, a lot of his ideas about morality work. Other speakers of morality don't always live up to what they say in their own lives, casting doubt on the "liar or a lunatic" part actually negating anything. However, the "Lord of All" part, if valid, negates a popular tenet of believing there are many "right" ways to {{Heaven}}. Also, to have him ''not'' measure up to those claims negates the Bible's claims about salvation through grace. Three counter-arguments to the debate are: 1) That Jesus' claims to divinity were the product of overzealous followers after his death. (This, for the record, is the official position of UsefulNotes/{{Islam}}: that Jesus was a prophet and messenger[[note]]In the Islamic concept, these are slightly different concepts; prophets are sent on a mission from God to remind people of the faith, but do not receive revelation; messengers are prophets who also received a revelation.[[/note]] of God who personally never claimed to be divine but whose followers eventually got a bit carried away.) 2) That religious belief in oneself isn't necessarily (or even likely) proof of clinical insanity -- especially not in the social context of that particular age of history. Or 3) That the Jesus of Literature/TheBible is a fictional character, whose divinity within the story makes him a great moral example regardless of real life divinity (which ignores multiple non-Christian sources referencing him). A counter-counter-argument is that if this is the case, then [[AndThatsTerrible the entire Bible becomes sketchy as a moral authority.]] Then on whose authority is morality defined? Of course, many would argue that basing morality on what a particular person said isn't a good basis regardless. It's worth noting that modern doubts that the historical Jesus claimed to be God (History Channel historians' and theologians' preferred view) don't necessarily stop all modern theologians from defending the gospel writers' position. This leads to the derivative argument that the followers were either honest, insane, or suicidal. In spite of modern secular accusations that they had fame and glory in mind, most of the New Testament writers wrote each other warning of how likely it was they would all be killed. In fact, only John died of natural causes.[[note]]Or so the legends of their martyrdoms say (no other historical record existing), although the accounts contradict on many specifics.[[/note]] They were frequently harassed and run out of town, and lived in constant poverty. Not exactly the usual makings of a GetRichQuickScheme. Honesty is not definitive, however, as believers in many religions have been willing to die for beliefs which most others do not view as remotely true (Heaven's Gate is an obvious example). So, a willingness to die for one's beliefs does not by itself prove they are true, but does indicate sincerity (or perhaps suicidal tendencies), even if shown to be misplaced.

to:

* This is a component of the Christian apologist argument called "Lord/Liar/Lunatic", popularised by Creator/CSLewis, which is ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin. The argument is usually preceded by an argument about a historical Jesus or the veracity of biblical accounts, but then goes on to argue that with the various claims attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, he must be lying, crazy or an actual deity. This is generally a response to those who view Jesus as a good teacher but not a divine one. However, a lot of his ideas about morality work. Other speakers of morality don't always live up to what they say in their own lives, casting doubt on the "liar or a lunatic" part actually negating anything. However, the "Lord of All" part, if valid, negates a popular tenet of believing there are many "right" ways to {{Heaven}}. Also, to have him ''not'' measure up to those claims negates the Bible's claims about salvation through grace. Three counter-arguments Creator/CSLewis. According to the debate are: 1) That Jesus' claims to divinity were the product of overzealous followers after his death. (This, for the record, is the official position of UsefulNotes/{{Islam}}: argument, if we grant that Jesus was a prophet and messenger[[note]]In the Islamic concept, these are slightly different concepts; prophets are sent on a mission from God to remind people of the faith, but do not receive revelation; messengers are prophets who also received a revelation.[[/note]] of God who personally never claimed to be divine but whose followers eventually got a bit carried away.) 2) That religious belief (as portrayed in oneself isn't necessarily (or even likely) proof of clinical insanity -- especially not in the social context of that particular age of history. Or 3) That the Jesus of Literature/TheBible is a fictional character, whose divinity within the story makes him a Literature/TheFourGospels), then it's fallacious to believe he was merely "a great moral example regardless of real life divinity (which ignores multiple non-Christian sources referencing him). A counter-counter-argument is that if this is the case, teacher." If said claims aren't true, then [[AndThatsTerrible the entire Bible becomes sketchy as a moral authority.]] Then on whose authority is morality defined? Of course, many would argue that basing morality on what a particular person said isn't a good basis regardless. It's worth noting that modern doubts that the historical Jesus claimed to be God (History Channel historians' and theologians' preferred view) don't necessarily stop all modern theologians from defending the gospel writers' position. This leads to the derivative argument that the followers were either honest, insane, Jesus was lying about being God, or suicidal. In spite of modern secular accusations that they had fame and glory in mind, most of Jesus was crazy, "on the New Testament writers wrote each other warning of how likely it was they would all be killed. In fact, only John died of natural causes.[[note]]Or so level with the legends of their martyrdoms say (no other historical record existing), although the accounts contradict on many specifics.[[/note]] They were frequently harassed and run out of town, and lived in constant poverty. Not exactly the usual makings of a GetRichQuickScheme. Honesty man who says he is not definitive, however, as believers in many religions have been willing to die for beliefs which most others do not view as remotely true (Heaven's Gate is an obvious example). So, a willingness to die for one's beliefs does not by itself prove they are true, but does indicate sincerity (or perhaps suicidal tendencies), even if shown to be misplaced. poached egg."
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''Literature/LambTheGospelAccordingToBiff'' is a corner case. Jesus isn't crazy (and in fact is portrayed as closer to CrazyAwesome) but he's distracted enough by the whole Son of God thing that he comes off as a bit loopy.

to:

* ''Literature/LambTheGospelAccordingToBiff'' is a corner case. Jesus isn't crazy (and in fact is portrayed as closer to CrazyAwesome) crazy, but he's distracted enough by the whole Son of God thing that he comes off as a bit loopy.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Note that while "Jesus Was Crazy" and "Jesus Was Way Cool" are opposites, they can still show up in the same work. Either they contradict each other in some kind of point-counterpoint argument, or they blend together through some kind of CrazyAwesome or CloudCuckoolander characterization. If this trope is double subverted, if Jesus is crazy and the son of God, then TheCuckoolanderWasRight.

to:

Note that while "Jesus Was Crazy" and "Jesus Was Way Cool" are opposites, they can still show up in the same work. Either they contradict each other in some kind of point-counterpoint argument, or they blend together through some kind of CrazyAwesome or CloudCuckoolander characterization.characterization or SuccessThroughInsanity. If this trope is double subverted, if Jesus is crazy and the son of God, then TheCuckoolanderWasRight.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''Literature/{{Julian}}'', an enemy of Christianity, takes this view. Jesus was just some guy who thought he was the Messiah. He acted out the prophetic requirements, raised followers, and eventually stormed the temple when nothing else worked. Pontius Pilate was right to execute him[[note]]Ignoring the basic fact that Pilate had ''no desire'' to execute Jesus.[[/note]].

to:

* ''Literature/{{Julian}}'', an enemy of Christianity, takes this view. Jesus was just some guy who thought he was the Messiah. He acted out the prophetic requirements, raised followers, and eventually stormed the temple when nothing else worked. Pontius Pilate was right to execute him[[note]]Ignoring him.[[note]]Ignoring the basic fact that Pilate had ''no desire'' to execute Jesus.[[/note]].[[/note]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* The Swedish comic ''"[[http://mikaelsol.se/images/pjesus.jpg Personal-Jesus]]"'' (with the hyphen in the name) plays a lot with the lighter side of crazy. The name itself is a wordplay: The Swedish word "personal" means "staff" or "human resources" (ergo, personnel) and is pronounced differently from the English word that is spelled the same way. In this quite surreal setting, Jesus Christ can indeed walk on water and everything, but for some reason he works in an ordinary office and creates general mayhem - getting his coworkers drunk as he turns water into wine at the worst possible moments, and so on.

to:

* The Swedish comic ''"[[http://mikaelsol.''[[http://mikaelsol.se/images/pjesus.jpg Personal-Jesus]]"'' Personal-Jesus]]'' (with the hyphen in the name) plays a lot with the lighter side of crazy. The name itself is a wordplay: The Swedish word "personal" means "staff" or "human resources" (ergo, personnel) and is pronounced differently from the English word that is spelled the same way. In this quite surreal setting, Jesus Christ can indeed walk on water and everything, but for some reason he works in an ordinary office and creates general mayhem - getting his coworkers drunk as he turns water into wine at the worst possible moments, and so on.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


->'''[[OnlySaneMan Pilate]]:''' Look at your Jesus Christ. I'll agree he's mad. Ought to be locked up, But that is not a reason to destroy him. He's a sad little man. Not a king or god. Not a thief, I need a crime!\\

to:

->'''[[OnlySaneMan Pilate]]:''' Look at your Jesus Christ. I'll agree he's mad. Ought to be locked up, up. But that is not a reason to destroy him. He's a sad little man. Not a king or god. Not a thief, thief. I need a crime!\\
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


A character might be tempted to argue that Jesus Was Crazy as a kind of StrawCharacter argument: Taking for granted that if you don't believe the parts of the Gospels where Jesus ''actually'' ascended into heaven and all that, then you must still believe the parts where he ''claimed'' to be divine, and thus be obliged to consider him a megalomaniac. Of course, atheists, Muslims et cetera who think Jesus was cool prefer to focus on a simplified understanding of TheGoldenRule, and that kind of stuff; assuming that the claims of divinity were added after his death - along with the walking on water and similar hard-to-accept accounts.[[note]]Muslims believe that Jesus (or "Isa" in Arabic) was the second-to-last Prophet of Allah, Muhammad's immediate predecessor, and that he ''was'' able to perform miracles, but only as a favor granted by God rather than a sign of divinity in his own right.[[/note]]

to:

A character might be tempted to argue that Jesus Was Crazy as a kind of StrawCharacter argument: Taking for granted that if you don't believe the parts of the Gospels where Jesus ''actually'' ascended into heaven and all that, then you must still believe the parts where he ''claimed'' to be divine, and thus be obliged to consider him a megalomaniac. Of course, atheists, Muslims et cetera who think Jesus was cool prefer to focus on a simplified understanding of TheGoldenRule, and that kind of stuff; assuming that the claims of divinity were added after his death - -- along with the walking on water and similar hard-to-accept accounts.[[note]]Muslims believe that Jesus (or "Isa" in Arabic) was the second-to-last Prophet of Allah, Muhammad's immediate predecessor, and that he ''was'' able to perform miracles, but only as a favor granted by God rather than a sign of divinity in his own right.[[/note]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


%%[[folder:Video Games]]

to:

%%[[folder:Video [[folder:Video Games]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* The underground comic ''ComicBook/GodNose'' depicts Jesus as a CloudCuckoolander; at one point, he decides to become a folk singer and in a later panel, he's shown performing in a club to a {{Beatnik}} audience.

to:

* The underground comic ''ComicBook/GodNose'' depicts Jesus as a CloudCuckoolander; at CloudCuckoolander. At one point, he decides to become a folk singer and in a later panel, he's shown performing in a club to a {{Beatnik}} audience.



* ''Literature/{{Julian}}'', an enemy of Christianity, takes this view. Jesus was just some guy who thought he was the Messiah. He acted out the prophetic requirements, raised followers, and eventually stormed the temple when nothing else worked. Pontius Pilate was right to execute him.

to:

* ''Literature/{{Julian}}'', an enemy of Christianity, takes this view. Jesus was just some guy who thought he was the Messiah. He acted out the prophetic requirements, raised followers, and eventually stormed the temple when nothing else worked. Pontius Pilate was right to execute him.him[[note]]Ignoring the basic fact that Pilate had ''no desire'' to execute Jesus.[[/note]].



[[folder:Live Action TV]]

to:

[[folder:Live Action [[folder:Live-Action TV]]



* In John Wick's ''Thirty'', the characters meet several different versions of Jesus. The two most notable are the self-described Gnostic Jesus, who is mundane but a philosophical genius ... and Paul's Jesus, who is a [[spoiler: psychotic firebreathing monster the size of a building]].

to:

* In John Wick's ''Thirty'', the characters meet several different versions of Jesus. The two most notable are the self-described Gnostic Jesus, who is mundane but a philosophical genius ... genius...and Paul's Jesus, who is a [[spoiler: psychotic firebreathing fire-breathing monster the size of a building]].building.]]



* ''Music/JesusChristSuperstar'' is (among other things) built like a point-counterpoint debate regarding who and what Jesus was. While Maria Magdalena and the apostle Simon represent two very different versions of JesusWasWayCool, Pontius Pilate goes down the Jesus Was Crazy road -- [[InsanityDefense trying to defend Jesus by arguing that he's insane]]. See page quote. Note that the "cool vs crazy" debate is not about being for or against Jesus. Pilate is trying to save him, while Caiaphas who is trying to get him crucified subscribes to the "Jesus is cool" camp. In the initial scene, Judas is still loyal to Jesus, and yet complains about how Jesus is turning increasingly mentally unstable under the pressure from his believers.

to:

* ''Music/JesusChristSuperstar'' is (among other things) built like a point-counterpoint debate regarding who and what Jesus was. While Maria Magdalena and the apostle Simon represent two very different versions of JesusWasWayCool, Pontius Pilate goes down the Jesus Was Crazy road -- [[InsanityDefense trying to defend Jesus by arguing that he's insane]]. insane.]] See page quote. Note that the "cool vs crazy" debate is not about being for or against Jesus. Pilate is trying to save him, while Caiaphas who is trying to get him crucified subscribes to the "Jesus is cool" camp. In the initial scene, Judas is still loyal to Jesus, and yet complains about how Jesus is turning increasingly mentally unstable under the pressure from his believers.



[[folder:Video Games]]

to:

[[folder:Video %%[[folder:Video Games]]



* Webcomic/GhastlysGhastlyComic put forward the idea of multiple Jesuses (Jesi?), who tend to represent the various "faces" of Christ as interpreted by his followers and the general public (with the possible exception of Drunk and Bitter Jesus, who is pretty much how Jesus would feel if he were alive to see the way the other Jesuses act). Jesus Was Crazy is Fark.com Jesus, who carries an awful lot of artillery for a guy who said "Blessed are the peacemakers."

to:

* Webcomic/GhastlysGhastlyComic put forward the idea of multiple Jesuses (Jesi?), who tend to represent the various "faces" of Christ as interpreted by his followers and the general public (with the possible exception of Drunk and Bitter Jesus, who is pretty much how Jesus would feel if he were alive to see the way the other Jesuses act). Jesus Was Crazy is Fark.com Jesus, who carries an awful lot of artillery for a guy who said "Blessed are the peacemakers."peacemakers".



* ''WebVideo/ZinniaJones'' claims that the biblical Jesus was way out of whack, for example in the episode [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs The Meaningless Death Of Jesus]].

to:

* ''WebVideo/ZinniaJones'' claims that the biblical Jesus was way out of whack, for example in the episode [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs The Meaningless Death Of Jesus]].Jesus.]]



* ''WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy'': Many episodes – those with spot gags on religion and others focusing on the Christian faith – depict Jesus as immoral, rebellious and at one time not even Christian. In "Family Goy," he even suggests that all religions are the same and that it doesn't matter which one one picks because they're "all complete crap" (to which [[HollywoodAtheist Brian]] – offscreen – shouts "Thank you!").

to:

* ''WesternAnimation/FamilyGuy'': Many episodes – those with spot gags on religion and others focusing on the Christian faith – depict Jesus as immoral, rebellious and at one time not even Christian. In "Family Goy," Goy", he even suggests that all religions are the same and that it doesn't matter which one one picks because they're "all complete crap" (to which [[HollywoodAtheist Brian]] – offscreen – shouts "Thank you!").
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* This is a component of the Christian apologist argument called "Lord/Liar/Lunatic", popularised by Creator/CSLewis, which is ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin. The argument is usually preceded by an argument about a historical Jesus or the veracity of biblical accounts, but then goes on to argue that with the various claims attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, he must be lying, crazy or an actual deity. This is generally a response to those who view Jesus as a good teacher but not a divine one. However, a lot of his ideas about morality work. Other speakers of morality don't always live up to what they say in their own lives, casting doubt on the "liar or a lunatic" part actually negating anything. However, the "Lord of All" part, if valid, negates a popular tenet of believing there are many "right" ways to {{Heaven}}. Also, to have him ''not'' measure up to those claims negates the Bible's claims about salvation through grace. Three counter-arguments to the debate are: 1) That Jesus' claims to divinity were the product of overzealous followers after his death. (This, for the record, is the official position of UsefulNotes/{{Islam}}: that Jesus was a prophet and messenger[[note]]In the Islamic concept, these are slightly different concepts; prophets are sent on a mission from God to remind people of the faith, but do not receive revelation; messengers are prophets who also received a revelation.[[/note]] of God who personally never claimed to be divine but whose followers eventually got a bit carried away.) 2) That religious belief in oneself isn't necessarily (or even likely) proof of clinical insanity -- especially not in the social context of that particular age of history. Or 3) That the Jesus of Literature/TheBible is a fictional character, whose divinity within the story makes him a great moral example regardless of real life divinity. A counter-counter-argument is that if this is the case, then [[AndThatsTerrible the entire Bible becomes sketchy as a moral authority]]. Then on whose authority is morality defined? Of course, many would argue that basing morality on what a particular person said isn't a good basis regardless. It's worth noting that modern doubts that the historical Jesus claimed to be God (History Channel historians' and theologians' preferred view) doesn't necessarily stop all modern theologians from defending the gospel writers' position. This leads to the derivative argument that the followers were either honest, insane, or suicidal. In spite of modern secular accusations that they had fame and glory in mind, most of the New Testament writers wrote each other warning of how likely it was they would all be killed. In fact, only John died of natural causes.[[note]]Or so the legends of their martyrdoms say (no other historical record existing), although the accounts contradict on many specifics.[[/note]] They were frequently harassed and run out of town, and lived in constant poverty. Not exactly the usual makings of a GetRichQuickScheme. Honesty is not definitive, however, as believers in many religions have been willing to die for beliefs which most others do not view as remotely true (Heaven's Gate is an obvious example). So, a willingness to die for one's beliefs does not by itself prove they are true, but does indicate sincerity (or perhaps suicidal tendencies), even if shown to be misplaced.
* UsefulNotes/FriedrichNietzsche held a somewhat similar belief: that Jesus was an "idiot." Note that he doesn't mean that Jesus was ''stupid''--rather, that Jesus had a view of life that was [[{{Cloudcuckoolander}} detached from reality]] and perhaps [[WideEyedIdealist too idealistic]]. Nietzsche is actually pretty positive on what he believed (on the basis of biblical analysis--which between his training in ancient languages and his upbringing in a family of Protestant ministers he was entirely qualified to do) to be Jesus' true message (a quasi-UsefulNotes/{{Buddhis|m}}t exhortation to the weak and poor to come to terms with and accept their suffering as simply a fact of the human condition rather than a fundamental injustice) and saves his venom for [[WordOfSaintPaul St. Paul]].

to:

* This is a component of the Christian apologist argument called "Lord/Liar/Lunatic", popularised by Creator/CSLewis, which is ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin. The argument is usually preceded by an argument about a historical Jesus or the veracity of biblical accounts, but then goes on to argue that with the various claims attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, he must be lying, crazy or an actual deity. This is generally a response to those who view Jesus as a good teacher but not a divine one. However, a lot of his ideas about morality work. Other speakers of morality don't always live up to what they say in their own lives, casting doubt on the "liar or a lunatic" part actually negating anything. However, the "Lord of All" part, if valid, negates a popular tenet of believing there are many "right" ways to {{Heaven}}. Also, to have him ''not'' measure up to those claims negates the Bible's claims about salvation through grace. Three counter-arguments to the debate are: 1) That Jesus' claims to divinity were the product of overzealous followers after his death. (This, for the record, is the official position of UsefulNotes/{{Islam}}: that Jesus was a prophet and messenger[[note]]In the Islamic concept, these are slightly different concepts; prophets are sent on a mission from God to remind people of the faith, but do not receive revelation; messengers are prophets who also received a revelation.[[/note]] of God who personally never claimed to be divine but whose followers eventually got a bit carried away.) 2) That religious belief in oneself isn't necessarily (or even likely) proof of clinical insanity -- especially not in the social context of that particular age of history. Or 3) That the Jesus of Literature/TheBible is a fictional character, whose divinity within the story makes him a great moral example regardless of real life divinity. divinity (which ignores multiple non-Christian sources referencing him). A counter-counter-argument is that if this is the case, then [[AndThatsTerrible the entire Bible becomes sketchy as a moral authority]]. authority.]] Then on whose authority is morality defined? Of course, many would argue that basing morality on what a particular person said isn't a good basis regardless. It's worth noting that modern doubts that the historical Jesus claimed to be God (History Channel historians' and theologians' preferred view) doesn't don't necessarily stop all modern theologians from defending the gospel writers' position. This leads to the derivative argument that the followers were either honest, insane, or suicidal. In spite of modern secular accusations that they had fame and glory in mind, most of the New Testament writers wrote each other warning of how likely it was they would all be killed. In fact, only John died of natural causes.[[note]]Or so the legends of their martyrdoms say (no other historical record existing), although the accounts contradict on many specifics.[[/note]] They were frequently harassed and run out of town, and lived in constant poverty. Not exactly the usual makings of a GetRichQuickScheme. Honesty is not definitive, however, as believers in many religions have been willing to die for beliefs which most others do not view as remotely true (Heaven's Gate is an obvious example). So, a willingness to die for one's beliefs does not by itself prove they are true, but does indicate sincerity (or perhaps suicidal tendencies), even if shown to be misplaced.
* UsefulNotes/FriedrichNietzsche held a somewhat similar belief: that Jesus was an "idiot." "idiot". Note that he doesn't mean that Jesus was ''stupid''--rather, that Jesus had a view of life that was [[{{Cloudcuckoolander}} detached from reality]] and perhaps [[WideEyedIdealist too idealistic]]. idealistic.]] Nietzsche is actually pretty positive on what he believed (on the basis of biblical analysis--which between his training in ancient languages and his upbringing in a family of Protestant ministers he was entirely qualified to do) to be Jesus' true message (a quasi-UsefulNotes/{{Buddhis|m}}t exhortation to the weak and poor to come to terms with and accept their suffering as simply a fact of the human condition rather than a fundamental injustice) and saves his venom for [[WordOfSaintPaul St. Paul]].Paul.]]

Top