This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Marth Vader: Cut this—
- * "Magneto is a zealot who has tried to kill all non-mutants multiple times before. Modern writers seem to forget, often, that Magneto is a terrorist with a sadistic streak a mile wide and a bone to pick with society at large"
Because Magneto, at least in the regular MU, has never tried to kill all baseline humans. Even during Fatal Attractions (speaking of Character Derailment...), the point of the world-spanning EMP that accounts for the bulk of his body count was destroying the satellite network that would prevent him from using his powers on earth, not killing dudes. The movies (where Magneto HAS shown himself to be genocidal) are not canon.
Peteman: I am resisting the resisting the urge to do a Justifying Edit but I think the comment about Deadpool should go after the Dr. Strange bit, rather than before.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Apologies to the troper who posted this to begin with, but it was a little too much Conversation On The Main Page.
- This troper, though he cannot claim to have made up Spidey & Deadpool vs. Hell, actually suggested this to Joe Quesada himself. At Megacon 2008, Quesada gave a panel, about half of which was him defending One More Day from more or less everyone else in the room. At the end, as Quesada left, this troper walked beside him and inquired as to the possibility of a Peter & Wade teamup vs. Mephisto. He gave some "you never know" hedging answer...but if they actually do that, this troper would like the world to know that he was (probably) the one who gave Quesada the idea.
Nornagest: Cut this—
- * Ultimate Spider-Man had Peter dump Mary-Jane because it was too stressful to protect her, and then had him go out with Kitty Pryde because "since she's a superhero, she wouldn't need protection". Right, because it's not like superheroes get beaten up and have their asses kicked around by supervillains on a regular basis. Heck, it's not like Spidey himself has ever gotten hurt doing his duty. See what I'm getting at? The fact that Kitty quit the X-Men doesn't help matters either...
Speaking as someone who's read neither Spider Man nor any of the X Men books since the mid-1990s, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. The It's Not You, It's My Enemies trope has a history of hitting Spider-Man hard, after all.
Bob: Batman showed up because everyone affiliated with The DCU at the time showed up. It was a Massive Multiplayer Crossover. This page isn't a License To Whine over how your favorite character didn't get enough screentime.
- What the Hell was Batman doing in the Crisis on Infinite Earths, besides simply pleasing the fanboys? He appears for a few panels, contributes nothing, has none of the powers required and is obviously superfluous. It is an insult to a once great character!
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here, for now.
- X-Men: The End, an incredibly stupid story that missed the entire point. Spoiler but this is so terrible that it does not matter: Apocalypse dies within a few pages, Shadowcat becomes a politician and creates peace between the humans and mutants, and Jean Grey flies the X-Men to Heaven. I Am Not Making This Up.
Bob: They explain it. The Final Night was Hal overcoming the possession through Heroic Resolve and The Spectre was suppressing Parallax during Day of Judgment. Zero Hour is a blatant Retcon, but it's hardly the Ruined FOREVER that you make it sound like.
- This retcon also retroactively messed up other important storylines. In Zero Hour, Hal Jordan was a Well-Intentioned Extremist intending to give his friends whatever revised histories they wanted. He was hardly the madman, cackling about creating fear in Earth's heroes, that was recently presented in a supposed Zero Hour flashback. Would such a person have brought back Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, for example? Of course not! There's no fear to be had in it! And in The Final Night, Hal volunteered to sacrifice himself to reignite the Sun. This didn't create fear; it actually ended fear! And again, in Day of Judgment, Hal's spirit volunteered to take control of the Spectre force rampaging on Earth, and reform it into a Spirit of Redemption. Again, this action ended fear instead of creating it! Where's the fear bug possession in ANY of this? So we see that the conclusions to three major Crisis Crossovers no longer make sense, all because of this crackpot Retcon. An Instant Classic Voodoo Shark from DC...
Removing this: As Tony outright states he's not against Superhero Registration, he's against what Osborn will do with the Superhero Registration Database. Also well awary what he's doing is hypocritical, (it's in Invincible Iron Man 7 and 8)
- Those at Marvel right now actually expect us to root for Tony Stark's daring resistance against the evils of Superhero Registration, when its only been two dozen issues since he was the guy putting Captain America in jail for doing the exact same thing, only with less blatant lawbreaking.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here for now. Spider Man has always been a psychological cartoon, so the justification appears to justify. If it does not, return the entry but leave the justification out.
- J Michael Straczynski's run on Spider-Man had a couple of notorious Wall Bangers in its first story arc with Villain Sue Morlun, not the least of which was Spidey's assertion that Morlun was the first villain who really "ticked him off". Yes folks, apparently trying to kill you makes Spider-Man hate you more than does murdering his first true love, kidnapping his infant daughter, ruining the lives of some of his closest friends, threatening his family, and making him doubt his very existence by manipulating him into thinking he was a clone, in short all the evil deeds done by the Green Goblin to make Peter Parker's life a living hell. In spite of all this, Morlun does a better job of making Spider-Man angry than does Norman Osborn. Go figure.
- I think it was because Spidery could relate to how the previous villains had their own personal issues and problems just like he did, and while he hated them, he still knew that he could've been the same, if not worse. Morlun, on the other side of the coin, is just a guy who wants to kill him with no personal motive, which he can't relate to, so he finds this guy to truly make him mad.
Gordon Schumway: I'm sorry, but this justification simply doesn't hold water when you consider a guy like Carnage, whose main reason for his killing spree was for shits and giggles. Morlun has done nothing that Carnage hasn't, namely killing people simply because it's natural, with no other personal motive, and yet Carnage apparently did not tick Spider-Man off.
Primo Victoria: But Carnage wasn't only after Spider-Man. You take this to seriously – for me Spidey was telling it more to encourage himself than saying it seriusly. This is why it was Peters Crowning Moment Of Awesome – he just encountered a man who punched him harder than anyone before, was causing most primitive kind of fear in him and stated that he will make rest of his life a hell of never-ending run before he kills him, and instead of running away scared, Spider-Man comes up with the most badass speech he could make at the moment and shows that real hero cannot be scared even by somebody like that.
Filby: Took this out...
- Batman is alive, and don't you dare tell me otherwise.
- No need to. The very last page of Final Crisis shows him alive and well, albeit in prehistoric times.
...because, well, the reply says it all. The whole thing was a deliberate fake-out.
- Considering adding more to the Countdown to Final Crisis example, the edit being that Countdown doesn't really seem to fit into the event it was CREATED to do. Does that sound good? Also, partially unrelated question, is Countdown still even Canon anymore?
- Well it would need a whole page, in the first place. Anyway edited this troper part (the how Black Adam got his powers part) as people might think that's a Wall Banger when many fans think it's the greatest thing the writer ever wrote.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: If Countdown to Final Crisis needs a whole page, a whole page could be arranged. We have pages for Code Geass and Wall Banger/Digimon. It would help if Countdown to Final Crisis had a standard entry as well if you do that, though.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Oops - the pages I was thinking of were in the Narm section - Code Geass and Digimon. Still, between this and Crowning Moment Of Awesome, there is precedent. We just have to decide carefully whether it's good precedent.
biznizz: If we were to create a page for the whole Countdown storyline, that would be extremely helpful, because honestly we could fill a whole page with it. Hell, I almost literally threw the last collection of it against a wall (I was in a Barnes & Noble, so I didn't). We really need to do something about this. "I'm Mary damn Marvel"? Who wrote this crap? Paul Dini? What the f***!? If he didn't write the Pied Piper storyline in this (which actually managed to be somewhat awesome), I'll.... what the hell happened to him?! And I still don't know if Countdown is canon. I've heard Morrison say that people should ignore it and I've heard that Morrison is going to try to rework some stuff so Countdown can be canon. Which is it!? Sorry if I seem a bit pissy, but this is honestly the worst thing I've read since The Dark Knight Strikes Again.
Bob: Have you even read Booster Gold #5? Because I don't think you have.
- Booster Gold, issue #5. Booster travels back in time to stop Barbara Gordon from being shot by the Joker, and is repeatedly defeated by the Joker. The Joker is normally a hideously dangerous villain, true; the problem here is that Booster had Power Armor and a force field and the advantage of surprise for each one of his many repeated attempts, thanks to time travel. The Joker had a revolver.
- Particularly egregious is the instance where Booster leaps in front of the bullet fired at Barbara, goes down with a shoulder wound, and the Joker then goes on to shoot Barbara anyway. But why on Earth was the crimefighter formerly known as Batgirl just standing there throughout all this? With the Joker's advantage of surprise lost due to Booster's spoiling his first shot, Babs had every opportunity to drop-kick the clown across the hallway.
- Superdickery.com puts it best... Booster Gold is like the entire DC universe's ''bitch''.
- The real annoying thing is all it would take at the end was something like 'Some events in the past are flexible, some are not and cannot be changed' Hand Wave to make it SOMEWHAT acceptable.
- Superdickery.com puts it best... Booster Gold is like the entire DC universe's ''bitch''.
- Particularly egregious is the instance where Booster leaps in front of the bullet fired at Barbara, goes down with a shoulder wound, and the Joker then goes on to shoot Barbara anyway. But why on Earth was the crimefighter formerly known as Batgirl just standing there throughout all this? With the Joker's advantage of surprise lost due to Booster's spoiling his first shot, Babs had every opportunity to drop-kick the clown across the hallway.
You mean like if Rip Hunter, a Time Master who knows everything there is to know about Time Travel, spent an entire entire page explaining that anything before the present is "solidified time" and any attempt to change it would be either a futile attempt ending in failure as per You Can't Fight Fate or, if somehow successful, would irreparable damage the timeline and threaten the entire universe and that he told Booster to go back to save Barbara for the sole reason of teaching him this lesson so that he wouldn't try to save Ted Kord the same way?
Remember when I said that I didn't think you had even read Booster Gold #5? There's a reason for that.
- Booster Gold should have been successful. Barbara should have been saved. But that would be going against something Alan Moore wrote, and Alan Moore is always right, regardless of what he says and does.
- Why? So she can go back to being Batgirl?
- Booster Gold should have been successful. Barbara should have been saved. But that would be going against something Alan Moore wrote, and Alan Moore is always right, regardless of what he says and does.
Conversation In The Main Page.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here. There may be a Wall Banger in here, but we need to refine what it is.
- Also from Dark Reign, the not-so-brilliant plan to kill Deadpool by curing his cancer. Supposedly, this would cause his regeneration ability to go out of control and tear him apart, except it's already been established by the Hollywood Science of the Marvelverse that without his cancer, he would be fine. He'd even look normal. The only way the writing could possibly be any stupider is if this plan works.
- Also his healing factor isn't keeping his cancer in check, it is his cancer, which would (I guess) work since he would still have a bullet in his head
- Also from Dark Reign, the not-so-brilliant plan to kill Deadpool by curing his cancer. Supposedly, this would cause his regeneration ability to go out of control and tear him apart, except it's already been established by the Hollywood Science of the Marvelverse that without his cancer, he would be fine. He'd even look normal. The only way the writing could possibly be any stupider is if this plan works.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here. The justification appears to justify.
- This troper can't remember the exact comic, but Deathstroke once defeated the better portion of the Justice League. Superman and Wonder Woman weren't there, but Green Lantern or the Flash should've been able to beat a guy who's basically an assassin with a healing factor. Blinding Kyle? Okay. Injuring The Flash by pointing his sword backwards and having Wally run into it? Less so.
- That was in Identity Crisis, when they were hunting down Doctor Light. And Kyle wasn't blinded - Deathstroke broke his hand, making it that much harder for him to use the ring. 'Stroke is also a tactical genius, hence his ability to defeat the Atom using just a laser pointer, and just -why- Wally got his butt kicked. Mr. West has always been a hothead, and while he was busy running around those landmines that the afore-mentioned assassin had planted, he was already bringing his sword up into position to where he knew, from having seen West in action before, the perfect position to make him run right into it because he -knew- he would be there. Familiarity with one's opponent, thanks to having faced him when he was a Titan, and just plain planning.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Oh, and would someone kindly doublecheck the integrity of the Judd Winick/Kyle Rayner example? I tried to synthesize the initial Wallbanger and a justification, since it still seemed to add up to a Wallbanger (just a different kind).
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here. Jeph Loeb was good before; he might be good again. Same with the Ultimates line.
Arguably, anything using the Ultimates post-Ultimates 2 is wallbanger territory.
- Rather anything penned by Jeph Loeb, who has become a walking Wall Banger in and of himself.
- How far back are we going? Because The Long Halloween was pretty good.
- He was wavering beforehand, but his son's untimely death seems to have broken the man.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: This does not belong in the main entry, but on learning of the Jack Chick entry - let me get this straight. You find someone becoming a serial killer because he was told Santa doesn't exist less of a Wall Banger than his going to hell specifically because he never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior? I'm not sure what makes me more uncomfortable - that a linchpin of evangelistic Christianity has been labeled a Wall Banger, or that there's no reason to remove it. (It is even written in Scripture that people will find it a Wall Banger. Not those exact words, but you get the idea.)
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here. It is beautiful, and I agree with it as far as it goes, but it is a Justification and does not belong on the main sub-page.
- Whether or not Barry's memory is being manipulated, maybe the fans shouldn't be so disturbed about his backstory being rewritten. True, a few things were "changed," and even then they might not be real; but did anyone honestly think that Barry wouldn't be affected by the changing timelines from the multiple Crisis Crossovers that has happened since he died? Crisis of Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis - did people think his past would be less changed than anyone else's? No one is the same as they were since the original Crisis when Barry died; they may be close, but everyone was changed.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cut this and put it here for now. We don't justify on the main page; if it's wrong, cut it! Points that are truly Wallbangers will, I hope, be restored at leisure. (Is there anything in The DCU more controversial than the power of the Bat Family?)
- Green Arrow #75, in which the villain Deathstroke used a device to turn Black Canary's own powers against her and was able to hold her hostage while forcing her to suck on his sword-blade◊. She does not try to escape or use her superpowers, which are more than capable of precisely breaking metal at point-blank range. Green Arrow, rather than trying to fight the villain or challenging him to quit hiding behind a woman, wound up begging on his knees for Black Canary to be spared. Despite the whole Justice League showing up to save the day, Deathstroke and his accomplice still manged to escape, thanks to a Deus ex Machina bomb that somehow neutralized the powers of every single JLA member for a few minutes. The bomb also somehow rendered Batman, who was not otherwise impaired in any way, unable to notice and follow Deathstroke's getaway car leaving the lot... despite its being the only car visible on the road.
- Deathstroke made it pretty clear that there was no getting out of that situation. His sword was inside of her mouth a hair away from killing her. His reflexes are good enough that he could incapacitate Black Canary from several paces away just by hearing her jaw click in Identity Crisis. And he's ruthless enough that Green Arrow had absolutely no chance of appealing the situation. How is this a wall banger? Also, it's hardly deus ex machina if he's the world's greatest strategist, and has to deal with escaping from superheroes all the time. As a human with no additional powers, wouldn't Batman be the easiest person to knock out for a couple of minutes? He was thrown clear by the explosion.
- Green Arrow #75, in which the villain Deathstroke used a device to turn Black Canary's own powers against her and was able to hold her hostage while forcing her to suck on his sword-blade
Main Man J: cut this:
- ...And now Quesada has confirmed a four-part FOLLOW-UP to OMD is in the pipeline for 2010 based on MJ's whisper to Mephisto (yes, everything she's doing currently is to keep Aunt May's heart beating, all whilst Peter date-rapes Mss Marvel and Felicia Hardy while IN A RELUCTANT RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE ELSE) Some fanboys think Marvel have been lying upfront to them and this will turn out to be a "Captain America" fake-out (Dead? Nah, He Got Better, though HIS comeback is just as stupid) with the marraige restored, and realty returned to normal...other fans used to the wall-banging reckon it will do more damage and knock ASM's sales down far, far lower. Issue 600 of ASM did not even crack the top ten, Spider-Man is everything but dead folks.
Radical exaggeration. I'd almost call it trolling. Reads more like Complaining About Shows You Don't Like than anything else.
Some New Guy: Regarding the recent complaint about Bunnie, aren't her cybernetic limbs iconic to her character by this point?
SynjoDeonecros: That's not the point of the complaint: the point is that the Bem could not change her robotic limbs back to flesh and bone, because they weren't her original limbs (they were replaced because the old ones were killing her, and apparently transforming the new limbs into organic ones would endanger her life), but they were able to transform Eggman and Snivley back into organics, despite the fact that the robotic bodies they had when they were changed back were not their original ones (they were backups that they downloaded their minds into after their old ones were destroyed...and that body of Eggman's was yet another replacement that he had, when the one he came to Mobius Prime in was blown up). The inconsistency that the Bem could turn Eggman and Snivley into organics, when their entire bodies have been replaced, but not Bunnie, when her robotic parts were replaced, is the issue here.
SynjoDeonecros: Whoever keeps on editing the Sonic the Hedgehog examples with justifications needs to stop it, seriously; first of all, the justifications miss the point of the Wall Banger, entirely (ex. Regina not having a "political connotation" attached to her isn't the point; the point is that she's a technology-based villain in a long line of technology-based villains created and used by the writers who obviously don't get why Robotnik and his technology was evil, in the first place, and think that any major villain to Mobius must have a technology motif). Second of all, the justifications make no sense (not making Espio a villain under the Iron Dominion equals the writers being negligent? How? Since when does "Oriental villain takes over" mean "all vaguely Oriental or Oriental-affiliated characters has to be involved"? Especially when said character's Oriental connection is tenuous, at best?). Third, while this trope is subjective, the justifications given sound way too much like Gushing Over Shows You Like than actual attempts to justify a Wall Banger. Seriously, stop it; your attempts at Justifying Edits really aren't.
Random ninja: I thought Espio was Spanish....
SynjoDeonecros: I can't say for sure. The point is, someone tried to justify Espio joining up with the obviously Oriental Dragon Lady villain, simply because he's now a ninja, and it would be a "waste of potential" to not have him join them. Because, y'know, taking some jujitsu lessons from your local martial arts dojo automatically means you have to submit yourself to an invading samurai army, if said dojo allies itself with the invaders.
Some New Guy: Good. God. The Archie Sonic section has got to be one of the biggest cases of whining and bitching I've ever seen. Requesting its removal while its still Natter-free.
SynjoDeonecros: It's only whining and bitching because someone keeps on trying to make Justifying Edits and turning it into a debate. Cleaning it up is fine, I think, but there's enough legitimate Wall Bangers in there without the Justifying Edits to not warrant total deletion.
Mr Blonde 267: Perhaps some sort of disclaimer should be added to the top. People seem to be under the impression that this page is a catch-all for complaining about anything that happened in comics that they don't like.
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Yes, there should be a disclaimer. The question is, what should it say?
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Cutting this and putting it here for now. Whether it goes back is probably related to whether there will be a disclaimer on this page and what the disclaimer disallows.
- In the recent Giant-Sized Astonishing X-Men #1, Joss Whedon chose to exit the title, not by killing Shadowcat, but by having her molecular structure trapped inside a giant metal projectile that was then fired at near light-speed into space. Although her Heroic Sacrifice saved the Earth from dying from the planet-smashing kinetic kill weapon, she's still trapped in the projectile, rocketing out into the trackless interstellar void; her reward is effectively being buried alive forever. (It's been established that she can survive indefinitely without sustenance while intangible.) Add that too much of the book was spent on dream sequences designed solely to tease the reader with false hope, and, yes, the wall did indeed have something banging against it.
- It's Joss Whedon. If he wasn't horrifically tormenting a character the fans liked, then it wouldn't be Joss Whedon. Why are we fans of his, again?
- Firefly.
- It's a multi-fandom meme that "Joss Whedon destroys that which he loves."
- Regarding the previous Wall Banger...technically, it's not so much Wall Banger as it is Nightmare Fuel.
- It's Joss Whedon. If he wasn't horrifically tormenting a character the fans liked, then it wouldn't be Joss Whedon. Why are we fans of his, again?
