This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Ununnilium: Need to add some actual description of the game.
Retnuh: Whoever wrote up this article comes across as being a hater of both FF 7 and it's spin-offs. Could someone try to make it more neutral sounding? And as Ununnilium said, they didn't even describe the game.
Fly: What's this about Aeris really being 'Alice'? Tetsuya Nomura stated it was an anagram for 'Earth' (with an I added - 'I, Earth?'), which fits because she is a Cetra.
Madacaek: Must... suppress... urge... to add "Oh, and Aeris dies." ... into article...
Qit el-Remel: Yuffie is so much more of a Genki Girl than a Scrappy. In many ways, she's the precursor of Rikku. Why is this not mentioned?
32_Footsteps You obviously don't know the depth of Yuffie hatred - the origin of Wutai Theft left a bad taste in the mouth of a ton of gamers. While I know of fans of Yuffie, there are millions who feel she's a Scrappy.
Roland: Um, Vincent never struck me as having too much angst. The big thing is while he's upset about his past, it doesn't paralzye him or anything.
- Durandal_1707: What? The guy deals with his angst by locking himself away in a coffin and sleeping there for 30 years until your party comes by to talk him out of it, which they do with difficulty. And presumably, if your party never comes by to talk him out of his coffin, he stays in there forever. That's not being paralyzed by it?
- Because suffering a Fate Worse than Death is no reason to have any amount of grief whatsoever.
Sockatume Cait Sith was Scottish? What? I didn't pick up on that at all. <—- Is Scottish.
32_Footsteps - The name is of very old Gaelic descent (and you could argue over whether it's Irish Gaelic or Scottish Gaelic - I personally don't know for certain). Square picked an extremely archaic spelling as well, as a modern spelling would actually render it Cat Sidhe - cat fairy. Also worth noting that FF 7 is not the first appearance of the character. In Japan, the Esper called "Stray" in Final Fantasy VI was originally called "Cait Sith".
Wanders Nowhere: Not only that, but in Advent Children's English dub, he has a (bizarre) pseudo-Scottish accent. On another note - why is it that Aeris going to the Forgotten city has been cited as an example of Too Dumb to Live here and elsewhere? I seem to recall Sephiroth following her there, not vice versa, and wasn't Cloud trying to kill her at the time?
wia: Wanders Nowhere is correct - Sephiroth was further north, in the Northern Crater where Cloud gave him the black materia (again). One of the Jenova Pieces had to be sent *back* after Aeris - and the telling part is that even though he knew what she was trying (from watching her telling Cloud) he couldn't make an attempt on her life until after Cloud caught up to her - that is, he most likely had to wait for Cloud to make contact before he knew where Aeris actually *was*. The delay wouldn't make any sense at all had he known her location beforehand, considering the number of Jenova Pieces and Sephiroth Clones he still had available to him. So Aeris' actions only put her life at danger *when Cloud found her*, not when she was alone. —- with no objection, I'm removing the link to 'too dumb to live'. Again.
- Could whoever keeps on setting Aeris as a straight example of 'too dumb to live' please at least try and refute my point before editing the main article again? I wouldn't mind so much if there was something about the situation I've *missed*.
Wanders Nowhere: I'm taking out Too Dumb to Live, again, because it really, really isn't a valid example as wia and I pointed out. It's pretty clear to me it's just being put back in as a cheap shot at a character someone doesn't like.
Lee: Could we give some of the Compilation entries their own articles? They don't get much coverage here, and things like X-2 get their own entries.
Rebochan: I don't see why not, though I'm nowhere near well-versed enough in the Compilation to make whole articles.
Lee: I'm the opposite, I'm not very good with the coding and the trope lists would be undersized. I'm only really talking about Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus though, I haven't actually played or watched the rest of it.
Rebochan: I love how over the last few years, as the anti-emo meme has taken over the net, people have tried to make Cloud out to be some sort of perfect badass that was "ruined" by the spin-offs, completely ignoring that the guy was such a mental mess that people lied to his face to keep him from turning into a sobbing pile. Which is still not emo considering all the crap he went through, but you know, character development of any sort is now emo. The sad part is, I'm not even a big fan of 7 and this *still* bugs me.
rsm109: The emo meme needs to die in a fire - some of us like characters who aren't just wooden puppets with a BFG. I'd be tempted to blame 13-year-old boys if not for the fact that I've heard adults doing it with all seriousness, and for the record I was 13 when FF 7 came out and found the character development a welcome change from a lot of games I'd played previously.
Rebochan: I was impressed by the deconstruction of the role of hero, especially the idea of presenting the player with an unreliable narrator. I didn't feel the game lived to its full potential, but that aspect was pretty damn gutsy.
Ishntknew: Anyone mind if I change "Sephiroth kills Aeris" to "Aeris dies" over here and on Memetic Mutation? I've never heard the former before this site, and it's more similar to a meme from a certain other series.
Rakuen: Considering that's actually how it's written in the death meme, I'd approve that.
BritBllt: Deleting this entry and here's why...
- Thanks to a translation that was more competent than the original game, it has now been confirmed in Crisis Core that it is canonically "Aerith". Now shut. Up.
- Rebochan: The Spell My Name With An S entry seems to point pretty clearly to Aerith since that's the name Square keeps using, but the natter was unnecessarily flametastic.
- The subjective part is the attack on the original Final Fantasy 7 translation, but even the Aerith issue is still subjective, as not everyone accepts the Compilation or even post-merger Square-Enix as a higher authority than the original Square game (Word of God has more on that issue). I'm fine with the wording as it is, though, so long as the entry's not telling the reader to shut up.
- Rebochan: It's worth adding that Square did not handle the localization of FFVII - Sony did. Sony did notoriously bad localizations at the time. So there's a certain irony in holding a localization handed off to a third-party as higher canon than later localizations handled by Square themselves.
- BritBllt: Maybe, it's a position held by some fans. I'm not invested in this fight apart from agreeing that Aerith sounds like a lisp regardless of the Earth pun, but Compilation didn't kill the issue, and some people don't even consider Square-Enix the same company. I have no problem with the wording as it is (like you said, it is canon), but nonetheless, it's still a hot-button issue.
- Rebochan: Gah, anyone seriously claiming that it's not the same company and that therefore makes an alteration "more canon" than the wishes of the people that hold it are not all there to begin with. But since even The Other Wiki has to come up with a half-assed compromise, there you go.
Ree: I'm going to suggest that the Cloud/Tifa and Cloud/Aerith content in the article remain neutral, since both pairings have equally large fanbases and both pairings are not yet considered canon, despite evidence.
Rebochan: We just resolved this. Either prove Cloud/Tifa "not canon", in the face of overwhelming evidence that Square seems to think so, or stop re-opening an old Edit War.
Too Much Time: Could somebody please sort out whether it is Tifa or Aerith who wants the other two to hook up? We have Tifa listed under Matchmaker Crush and Aerith listed under Shipper on Deck. The same debate appears on the Matchmaker Crush page. Which is it? Or does it apply to both? According to The Other Wiki, when you show concern for Aerith, then your Relationship Values for Tifa go up; i.e. Tifa likes Cloud more, whereas showing concern for Tifa or saying she's your girlfriend makes your values for Aerith go down. See here.
I'd say it's Tifa who's the Shipper on Deck, but I wasn't comfortable making the edit because I haven't played the game.
Rakuen: Neither is the Shipper on Deck, it simply goes with their character types. The decision that causes this problem is in Cornero's mansion. Aerith is more concerned about others than herself, so her value goes up if you rush after Tifa in the mansion. On the other hand, Tifa is a tough girl who can take care of herself, so her value goes down if you deign to check up on her first (think of it as doubting her).
Rakuen: The Ship-to-Ship Combat entry is important, but it's also important to recognize what Square has done with the series since the game. In the movie, Cloud isn't searching for Aerith because he wants a relationship, he's looking for forgiveness for screwing up and allowing her to die. When he finally gets it, he's able to move on with his life (character development?!). This coupled with the ending of the movie very much implies the pairings have become Zack/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa. Prove me wrong and you can delete the applicable line I've added twice now.
This Troper: It isn't an either/or situation for one. For another there is no indication they are anything other than nakama and 'family' in the non-romantic sense, They certainly aren't anything but platonic in thier relationships as shown by the expanded universe such as the books, that goes for Zack and Aerith (afterlife not pre-ff7, things change) too, look them out before adding more lines.
Rakuen: I've looked up the synopsis. Aerith admits to loving Cloud more than Zach, but then realizes that it's Zach's personality that's been impressed upon Cloud. Also, there's the extra symbolism in Advent Children Complete where Cloud takes Zach's sword and places it within the church. They may never come directly out and say anything, but they're stacking the deck in that direction. Thus why I write it as a qualified statement rather than fact.
This Troper: just another piece of unclear claimed 'evidance' like the previous version had cloud riding through a field and Aerith appearing. And I'm fairly sure you got it wrong on the novels, she knew clouds soldier personality was a front since way back in ff7 and wanted to meet the real him, it was Cloud she cared for not the 'Cloud trying to be Zack'. It's pointless fan-spec and has no place in the listings, When In Doubt - Leave It Out
Rebochan: The only "pointless fan-spec" is the idea that Zack/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa are not couples. Square's not good at subtle shipping - they're good at bludgeoning you over the head with their romantic pairings until you beg them to stop.
This Troper: Except not. They will keep bringing out more and more pieces of the Complication and horribly tease both sides for evermore as they milk all the money they can from the series, Like Gainax. 10 years from now We'll be playing ff7: The Highschool AU dating game. Until we get actual confirmation Words from the Gods about anything actually happening instead of what we have now being fanservice and implication countered by future retcons and remakes as well as other sources that have everyone being platonic and non-romantic with each other we act responsible and don't put anyone up as the 'winner' of this old old shipwar
Rebochan: I've seen nothing to show Cloud having feelings for Aerith. To say they're "teasing" it reeks of desperate Cloud/Aerith shipping that will not die. You could make a reasonable case for Aerith having feelings for Cloud and possibly not Zack, but they're still not subtle.
This Troper: ...Oh god now the heavy shippers are going to appear aren't they. Let's stick to canon and just keep it clean, neither of the cheekily slipped in couples are confirmed as canon and neither is the alternitive, and until that changes let's keep things as the status quo. If you want to debate the multi-faceted loveshape indepth there are many shipper forums on the net, Tv Tropes is not one of em.
Rebochan: No, sticking to canon would mean not pretending this is up for debate to please a bunch of crazy shippers. Cloud/Tifa is undeniable. TV Tropes is a place where we don't make things pleasing for shippers - we go with what's actually in the show or game. By the way, you haven't offered anything in the works to prove that they're not a couple. You've just told us we're reading it wrong and then complained a lot about Square.
This Troper: Wow that was a hell of an edit. And if we aren't here to please crazy shippers you should not be changing it to suit yourself miss. Since you want it so badly there is seemingly nothing going on between Cloud and Tifa after Advent Children shown by the works set in a later time period, you think they'd at least mention that Cloud and Tifa had been getting together in Dirgeof Cerberus, just a short word in the notes at least, a minor scene where they express some hint of thier new relationship, or any other source of info not from Do C perhaps. But no, you take the ambigious parts and declare it as obvious proof that your ships is canon, and it's tiresome as well as neverending. Just leave things as they are, IF you have some new work or source I've not heard of that properly finishes off this tired old shipwar feel free to whip it out, but until you get something more concrete than Advent Children with no follow up just leave it out mate.
Rebochan: If the game, the movie, and the compilation spending ridiculous amounts of time reminding you how much Cloud obsesses over Tifa isn't enough, I can't help you. I'd love to know where you're getting "works set in a later time period" though. Because the only thing set later than that is Dirge of Cerberus, which doesn't focus on them at all, so why it would take a detour to focus on something that was settled is beyond me. Advent Children is the most recent work. They didn't need to say anything in Dirge of Cerberus because they already said it in Advent Children, and in Final Fantasy VII. There's no reason to say "Oh by the way, we're totally still hooked up". I don't know how ambiguous a sequence in which Tifa has to run through Cloud's psyche and discover every single thing he did somehow related to her is to you. Nor the idea that he spent the entire time after the game living with Tifa. Again, Square is as subtle as a pile of hammers. At no point in any of this does he go "I love Aerith." I'm getting the impression that you'll only be satisfied if there's a wedding, and even then you'll still find it too "ambiguous" somehow. I want the page to be accurate, and stripping out all references to what actually happened to satisfy an Anon is silly.
This Troper:...You think Cloud and Tifa have been in a proper fullon relationship since ff7? As in they've been an actual official couple all along? ...with the whole lack of any active romantic relationship portrayed? Do you not understand what you are writing here? hum... I'm trying to end this blight upon the board.. the discussion page does not need a pointless ship war which is sometyhing I've been trying to avoid all along. I thought after days of no answer you had let the thing drop but now you say it yourself, you're an utter Cloud/Tifa fanatic, everything is utter PROOF PEOPLE and you won't accept a neutral stance. geeze... this has spiraled all out of control, I miss the first guy.
Rakuen: I've stayed out of this because Rebo's been doing a good job of things. The onus is not on anyone to prove that Cloud/Tifa is canon, the onus is on you to prove it is not. Now do so or leave it alone, because I tire of getting hit by notifications where all you do is rant aimlessly without providing any proof.
This Troper: Bullshit, this ain't a Cloti/Clerith/Zaerith forum, none of these couples are confirmed in the current timeframe and so the article should say that, you can't foist the burden off on me and say I need to prove they aren't together when the position that needs to be proven is that they ARE together romantically. If the article is to represent truth then you it cannot rely on two shippers campaigning for thier OTP.
Rakuen: That's right, flame rather than provide evidence, it really helps your case. I don't even care about the ship, I too want the article to reflect the evidence presented. Thus why I've left the article alone for so long now. So present it, or again, step off.
This Troper: Suck it up and then play by your own rules, but more importantly realize how circumstancial and "In my opinion" your evidance has been to make the change from a neutral article to a shippy. You may not be as fanatic as the balls to the walls shipper you consider one damm fine debator but realize you want to change this article based on feelings instead of fact when there's absolutly no reason to do so. Now instead of pouting get up and prove your shipping as being worthy of considered the gospel truth wether you want to admit to it as such or not, or simply drop it.
Rebochan: I've provided facts showing they are. You've provided nothing but your interpretation and a lot of complaints about the Compilation. You've also ignored evidence provided to you that they are as invalid evirely because it was in the Compilation. That was going on before I stepped in. For what it's worth, no. I'm not a shipper, I don't even like FF 7 all that much, though I'm a general fan of the series and hence I spend time here. I'm someone that just likes to see something that actually happened in the game not blown off for no apparent reason except that one person wants it that way. Square does not need to tell you "Yes, Cloud and Tifa are a couple" when they're living together already. That's what any sane person would consider an "active romantic relationship."
This Troper: You do know Barret lives there too when he's not on the road? And you are a shipper, they live in the same house but that alone doesn't equal a couple at all... there's the fact for one they don't sleep together or otherwise share a room. That's pretty poor as evidance overall.
Rebochan: It means a lot that they still live together, especially when it builds off of them living together after the events of the game itself? Lets see. Cloud obsesses over Tifa in FF 7. Tifa and Cloud need each other to get Cloud back. Cloud and Tifa stay together through the end of the game. Cloud and Tifa are now living together. Why does Barret living there suddenly nullify it? We don't need to pan a camera on Cloud and Tifa boinking to prove this (especially when the two of them are kind of on the rocks for much of Advent Children anyway, what with Cloud having a little vision quest and carrying a terminal disease...).
This Troper: Whaa..? "Cloud obsesses over Tifa in FF 7"? This along with the live in the same house is meant to be the fantastic evidance I'm not providing? Explain your claim.
Rebochan: The entire reason Cloud did anything in his childhood and the reason he tried to become a SOLDIER was because he had a crush on Tifa and wanted her to notice him. This was all covered in Cloud's psyche sequence in 7. And since you so hate synopsis, here's a script of the entire game. I could quote the entire sequence, since it all leads into this, but here's just a few lines.
- Tifa: Now that you mentioned it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place? I always thought it was a sudden decision you made......Second Cloud: ......I was devastated. ......I want to be noticed. I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice......Tifa: Someone to notice you...? ......who?Second Cloud: You......
Ding. A good chunk of that sequence even goes over how much he obsessed with wanting to have Tifa and never being able to. Read from there, it's a lot of text.
This Troper: Oh hey, you return, I was in the middle of writing an addition you evil evil person. So you think because he had a crush on the popular girl as an outcast teen that means he's obsessed with her forever? You notice he doesn't display that kind of obsessed behaviour as an adult? Almost as if... he changed as a person over a period of many years? MY GOD, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! you'd almost think people were more than static dolls who can be altered by life experiance. Heh you seem like you want to make him a total freak, like a Twilight character or something, does he sneak into her room and watch her while she sleeps as well?
- Hell might as well give you the add-on for the previous thing I was writing that the big reason Cloud needed Tifa in particular to help him get his head together is because she was the only person around who had clear memories of Cloud's youth and the Nibleheim Incident, and if she had told him these things alot sooner it wouldn't have been so easy for Seph/Jen to mind-control him.
- And hey! Where else should these two crazy kids live after all that palaver? maybe return to the rebuilt Nibs filled with fake villagers and traumatic memories? ...Of course not, so Cloud-Barret-Tifa-and the darling Marleen -Denzel too later on live together in Edge, and by grud they don't live together because they are just so in love, but where else are they going to go? and if they really are so in love why have they not been interacting in a couple-like fashion ever? you wish you'd get to see them boink but there's not even a kiss...a handholding [lol clerith! Nah just kidding]... a romantic word shared between two lovers?
- Maybe if Tifa was able to vocalise her romantic interests she'd have more luck but Cloud's got pretty much nowt boiling inside him in the way of love and lust of that kind, and that's why they haven't been portrayed as anything other than platonic in thier canon interactions, except for in the eyes of shippers who like to have articles proclaiming thier ship as bluntly implied to be obviously canon 'lol'.
- Really she seems the one with the 'obsession' now, Cloud could prolly snap his fingers and she'd do him, but he's too busy not doing so. . .
- Hell might as well give you the add-on for the previous thing I was writing that the big reason Cloud needed Tifa in particular to help him get his head together is because she was the only person around who had clear memories of Cloud's youth and the Nibleheim Incident, and if she had told him these things alot sooner it wouldn't have been so easy for Seph/Jen to mind-control him.
Rebochan: How does any of what you wrote actually disprove anything? All you've done is promote reasons why it might not without using any evidence from the games. Then you follow this with attacks on people who disagree with you and rants about the game and shipping. Cloud became a SOLDIER for Tifa. He still tried to protect Tifa up until he was kidnapped and went crazy...and then he still kept trying to protect Tifa. Seems to me that despite Cloud thinking he was Zack, he didn't change his feelings about Tifa. They're living together in Advent Children along with other people close to them. These are the facts. They build off of each other.
This Troper: So wanting to protect and save someone no matter the odds is a sign of Love? "I'm your bodyguard, right?" But didn't you say Cloud didn't care for her at all like that? And your facts are full of errors, Cloud never thought he was Zack, you notice when he acts in his 'SOLDIER personality' at the start of the game he's kind of cold and an asshole....Do you know what Zack is like in personality? And of course secondaly Cloud never became a SOLDIER, and originally he had bragged to a girl he had the hots for as a teen that he would a SOLDIER as strong as Sephiroth, so he would be better than the other boys she compared him to...then she pretty much preassured him into promising to saver out of the blue? your facts are circles trying to be forced through triangle-holes.
Rebochan: It's a sign of love when it stems from a childhood crush - remember how he kept protecting her as a child too? It's in the game script. And Cloud certainly did think he was Zack - he truly believed that everything Zack did were his own accomplishments and that he was the SOLDIER that went to Nibelheim instead of Zack. He basically took Zack's identity and Tifa knew it and kept that from him. That's all in the script I linked. People do change as they get older, but Cloud shows a consistent pattern of protectiveness for Tifa and this is all explained in the backstory as its unveiled in the game. Aerith's story in the Compilation was her realizing that many elements of the person she thought of as Cloud were identical to Zack.
This Troper:...except the two are nothing alike in personality? You can't say he took his complete identity and have him act like a completly different guy, It was his mannerisms and his acheivments he took but not his personality, that's what I've been saying. And that sounds like Tosh, even in ff7 she realized that Cloud was not like Zack and wanted to meet the real him as well in her novels she decides on page she loves Cloud more than Zack. And as for your main point Cloud never protected Tifa so in such a single-minded intense fashion as you describe, this is well within the bounds of personal interperatation...which was the problem before.
Rebochan: What in that says that Cloud did not think he was Zack? He still had a lot of Cloud's personality, but he had Zack's too and he did believe he had Zack's accomplishments and much of his life. The entire segment in his psyche showed that he really believed that and the segment earlier with Sephiroth shows that Sephiroth knew he thought this was true as well. Tifa knew he was so messed up that she kept it from him. Not completely being Zack doesn't negate this. Aerith knew after she died what was Zack and she wanted to understand Cloud better - but that means she recognized that a lot of the Cloud she knew was taken from Zack. I don't know who Tosh is supposed to be. As for Cloud protecting Tifa...
- Once on Mt Nibel when they were kids.
- Once in the reactor.
- Several times in the game, but in particular, the Don Corneo sequence.
This Troper: But this goes heavily against what was said before, when Cloud protects and is worried Aerith multiple times, and reminds her with a flourish -when they are both locked up and she says she knew he'd come for her- that he promised to be her bodyguard, right? But you told me quite strongly that there is no evidance that Cloud ever showed feelings for her, even though it's the same argument and could be argued to be on a larger scale. I expect the retort will be along the lines of what we've been discussing just now but...
Rebochan: Where does Cloud think of Aerith? Where does Cloud, in his messed up psyche, find losing Aerith to rank? The girl up and dies on him, but when he's trying to put his brain together and sort through all of his memories, the ones that worry him all relate to Tifa somehow and none to Aerith. Actually, to be quite frank, he barely thinks about Aerith at all after she dies, something always bothered me in the game and something I actually liked about the movie for addressing. And why does Aerith having feelings for Cloud show those were reciprocated? Cloud protected Tifa throughout his life and the reason why is explained. Cloud protected Aerith for a brief period of time and then she died. Cloud apparently didn't care about this either until after several years passed and he got Geo Stigma while trying to cure it for someone else.
This Troper: Man... you still wonder why anyone would think to call you a Clo Ti Shipper? Anyway the thing you wanted:
- Cloud “How could I ask you to go along when I knew it might be dangerous?”
- Aerith "Cloud, are you there?" Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?" Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right." "I knew that Cloud would come for me." Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
- Aerith "I'm... alone... I'm all alone now..." Cloud "But I'm... we're here for you, right?" Aerith "I know. I know, but... I am the only... Cetra."
- Cloud "I remember Aerith a lot." "No... not that. You haven't remembered. You haven't forgotten." "That's not it... How would you say it..." "Aerith was right there all along. Right by our side." "She was so close, we couldn't see her." "What Aerith did... The words she left behind..."
- Cloud "Aerith has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future..." "I'm sorry... Aerith. I should have figured this out sooner." "...You left us without saying a word... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think..." "That's why it took so long for me to find out... But, Aerith... I understand now." "Aerith... I'll do the rest." "Thank you... Aerith."
- Wanted something like this right? I came across a site that had a bunch of them anyway so your getting em.
Mr Death: Hi there. Just thought I'd chime in. Here's a newsflash: A guy can be friends with one girl, and be in love with another. GASP AND ALARM! Those lines basically just show, unless you're willing to stretch things, that Cloud liked Aerith. Liked. As in, "Hey, we're friends, and I'm sorry you died." Showing you're sad when someone dies doesn't mean on its own that they're "teasing" the relationship.
As has been mentioned, there's much, much more evidence that Cloud loves Tifa, and that Tifa reciprocates. Advent Children might not go so far as to show them humping, but Tifa is clearly a woman worried about the man she loves, and it was much smarter of Square to not have them go, "OMFG WE'RE A COUPLE!" and announce it at every opportunity. You surely know couples who have been together a while, right? Do they take every opportunity to remind you that, yes, they are a couple? No, they probably don't.
Face it. Your "ship teasing" is your own little conspiracy theory. Let's move on with our lives. Rebochan's provided more than enough evidence, and you've answered with little more than "NUH-HUH!" So please, let's just let this die, okay?
This Troper: What's been provided is a fan's interpretation of the series, and unsurprisingly nothing new within it. No new evidance any fan of the games doesn't already know and all depending on ones point of view it can sound like the holy truth or a load of hardcore shipping. Just Like the past 12 years where canon has been claimed by people over and over again. I'm not here to change this page to anything about that, All I had originally attempted to do was switch it back to how it first was before someone decided they wanted to open this can of worms.
Swish: I would like to ask, as a random observer to the argument, what the evidence of Cloud-Aerith love is. Claiming there is nothing between Cloud and Tifa is fine and all, but using that as the reason for something between Cloud and Aerith is rather convoluted, isn't it? Thus far, everything presented on this discussion have been fairly valid reasons why Cloud-Tifa works. But the only thing pointing for Cloud-Aerith (other than the bodyguard angle) is "It's not Cloud-Tifa, deal with it." I'm just wondering where the basis for Cloud-Aerith is, other than the bodyguard and that one date they may or may not have gone on...
Mr Death: No, This Troper. Your evidence has been nothing but your own fan-speculation. Rebochan has provided excerpts from the game itself, as well as the Compilation, that put together definitely points to a relationship between the two. Your only "evidence" has been a couple lines that imply nothing more than he was friends with Aerith and was sad that she died, and the fact that Cloud and Tifa weren't slobbering all over each other in Advent Children (which had, as a plot point, that Cloud was becoming distant) and Dirge Of Cerberus, during which they had maybe five minutes of screentime, during a battle.
Let's sum things up, shall we?
Evidence provided by Rebochan that Cloud and Tifa are the official couple: Cloud did everything in the first game's back story to impress Tifa. When his mind broke, it was memories of Tifa that brought it back together. Tifa stays with Cloud when he's confined to the wheelchair. They're living together with a family after the game. They show clear concern for each other whenever the other is in danger, beyond the concern they tend to show other party members.
Evidence provided by you that it's not the official couple: A couple lines that show that Cloud cared enough about Aerith to be sad that she died, and a string of, "Nuh-huh, you're wrong!" with no actually valid points to refute Rebochan's conclusions.
Rebochan's proven his point. At this point, the onus is on you to prove that Cloud and Tifa do not love each other, and you've failed to do that. Why're we still talking about this?
Madamhydra: While not questioning that Cloud and Tifa care for each other deeply, I'm not sure that there's definitive proof that they are -romantically- involved as a couple (as compared to a more familial and/or plutonic sort of relationship). Please note that I'm not attempting to downplay the feelings Cloud and Tifa obviously have for each other, since some plutonic relationships can be just as (if not more) emotionally intense and intimate as romantic relationships. While Square-Enix has certainly provided a very plausible basis for a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa some point in the future, but is there clear evidence of actual romantic love between Cloud and Tifa at the present? People do grow out of childhood and teenage infatuations.
Rebochan: As I said before, it's a combination of what we know of them *before* and where they are now. We don't have a scene of them screwing like jackrabbits, but that doesn't mean they're not romantically involved. I think anyone removed from the fandom and its minefield of shipping that was told a guy and his childhood crush found each other again and relied on each other to get through a severe personal crisis and are currently sharing a house together several years later would assume they were romantically involved.
Madamhydra: While I agree it's a perfectly reasonable *assumption* that two people in their situation may be romantically involved, a mere assumption (reasonable or not) does not equate to definitive evidence. With respect to definitive evidence, I'm not demanding explicit verbal or pictorial proof that they're 'screwing like jackrabbits' or 'boinking'. I'm not anti-Tifa or pro-Aerith. I am also quite aware of the distinction between canon and fandom. All I'm asking is whether there's some clear indication that (as of Advent Children or Dirge of Cerberus), Cloud and Tifa's feelings for each other constitutes 'love' in the sexually romantic sense, versus 'love' in a non-sexual deep affection sense.
Rebochan: I think more importantly, does Cloud treat anyone else the way he treats Tifa, and does Tifa treat anyone else the way she treats Cloud. Sharing that much intimate space or that much concern for a specific person of the opposite isn't something one does platonically. We don't exactly have a kissing scene or even a hug, but we've got everything else that goes along with a romantic commitment to another person. It's worth noting that Japanese romances tend to be a lot more subtle anyway - less about hugs and kisses and more about commitments and promises. They're still sharing personal spaces that two platonic Japanese people would not be sharing.
Lednev: I find it amusing that you have two people living together for the better part of 4 years. Raising two children. And people will say "well since there is the possibility that they are not in a relationship you can't assume". Yes you can actually. Unless it is specifically pointed out that they are not in a relationship then it is very safe to assume. Even if you ignore the various creator statements outright saying Cloud and Tifa are together.
Mr Death: To whoever keeps putting the graphics as So Bad Its Horrible, I envy you, for you have clearly never seen truly So Bad Its Horrible graphics. The character models on the field map are a little blocky, sure, but that does not equate to So Bad Its Horrible. That would be if the graphics were fundamentally broken—as it is, you can easily tell who's who, they're animated well enough (even if they are Going Through the Motions), and the backgrounds are detailed and animated. The fight screen graphics are good as well, cramming even more detail onto the characters.
As for Breath of Fire 3, you do realize the characters are 2D sprites, right? So not at all indicative of what a company at the beginning of the PS 1's life cycle could do with 3D graphics, right? As for the backgrounds, Final Fantasy VII's prerendered backgrounds look a lot cleaner and more detailed than what I've seen of BOF 3.
