This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
I refute Red Shoe's statement in a way that is especially damning because Red Shoe's statement wasn't actually here.
Looney Toons: Bwah?
Ununnilium: *flee*
Robert: Is Doctor Who a sufficiently advanced alien? He's neither a standard example of this trope, nor a straightforward subversion, but he feels relevant.
Ununnilium: Nnnnn... I know what you mean. I'd say the Time Lords are more advanced than the Goa'uld, but this still doesn't seem Sufficiently.
Robert: There are a few episodes where the Time Lords send the Doctor to lay down the law in typical Sufficiently-Advanced style - 'This experiment is forbidden' - but while they could pass themselves of as gods at least as well as the Goa'uld, they never did. Even the Master wasn't interested in being worshipped.
What I was initially wondering was if Doctor Who has any examples of this trope. You might expect it to, but the Doctor doesn't really qualify, and he raises the bar for that universe. Anywhere else, the Daemons would qualify - stupendous power, no sign of machinery - but the Doctor says it's all done with mirrors, and we trust him. Mostly too, the Doctor defeats the godlike powers he encounters, more than Picard could ever hope to do to Q.
Has Doctor Who avoided this trope because of its premise, or even subverted it?
Ununnilium: Wasn't there a "Black Guardian" and "White Guardian" at some point in the old series who were implied to be stupendously powerful cosmic beings?
Looney Toons: There were indeed, during the tenure of the Fourth Doctor.
Red Shoe: There are times, especially during the "Cartmel Masterplan" that try to imply that the Doctor *is* a Sufficiently Advanced Alien, and he's just been playing it down according to the usual rules of The Dungeon Master. This is where the Big Finish story "Death Comes To Time" winds up
Robert: The Guardians were stupendously powerful, by human standards, but their interactions with the Doctor don't fit the trope. Both times, the white Guardian actually needs the Doctor's help, not the normal pattern for a Sufficiently Advanced Alien.
Red Shoe: No, but I think it does fit in with the pattern of The Dungeon Master. The idea of Anthropomorphic Personification that we're kicking around over on YKTTW seems like a better fit.
Robert: Red Shoe, I agree. I'd summarise the difference between the two tropes by analogy: Sufficently Advanced Aliens are the SF equivalent of wizards/faeries; Anthropomorphic Personifications include the SF equivalent of Gods.
The boundary between the two is fuzzy, both in modern media and in ancient myths, but mostly the distinction is clear enough, and the two categories function differently in stories.
As for the Doctor, because he's almost sufficiently advanced himself, his interactions with sufficiently advanced aliens don't follow the normal pattern for this trope. (It's more comparable with SG 1 vs the Goa'uld). His interactions with anthropomorphic personifications do follow the normal pattern for that trope.
Seth: I would agree that The Doctor and the Time Lords are sufficiently advanced but because the story is told from his perspective it is never seen that way. It's like a subversion but so much more so - Averted Trope anyone? If he put any effort into it he would pass as a god, hell all he needs to do it say to his companion he is a god and they would believe him straight out because well look at the guy. In the second episode of the new series he stopped time by willing it. That's godlike - but the premise is such that it has not and will not come up in the context of this trope. Trope Averted
Paul A: I don't know, though. Did he really stop time, or was it just a Bullet Time fast reactions thing?
Robert: I think that was Bullet Time, but in one of the older episodes (maybe Tom Baker) the villain did something that stopped time. The Doctor shrugged it off.
Ununnilium: "End of the World" was definitely Bullet Time. He just changed his own perception. The thing is, the Time Lords aren't Sufficiently Advanced except by virtue of technology.
A Carlssin: In "Time Flight", there was a race of aliens who'd ascended to god-like status, then decided that the key to eternal happiness was to live out their days shut up in a box buried in Prehistoric Earth. One of the Doctor's companions nearly Ascended and became a god, but was replaced at the last moment by an air-disaster examiner.
Seth: Okay watch last of the time lords and tell me The Doctor couldn't pass for a god? He gains Telekinesis, flight, glowyness and resets his regeneration cycle, de-aging himself 900 years through the power of prayer If that isn't godlike, i loose faith in the bible, god himself needed less than that to prove himself to people.
Cosmetor: That was a case of Clap Your Hands If You Believe, and an exceptional situation besides. Ordinarily, the Doctor can't do anything with a wave of a hand or a snap of his fingers; he depends on obvious devices, however advanced they are. Apart from that, he's usually limited to things humans can do.
Maureen Mac Donald: The First Doctor's companion Katarina thought that the Doctor was a God despite his telling her otherwise and ends up giving her life for him because of it. The Third Doctor also manages to convince a group of townspeople that he was a wizard (with some help from Benton and Clarke's third law). The Seventh Doctor is also told that one day he'll become the basis of the myth of Merlin. Finally, the leader of the Sycorax mistakes a side effect of the Tenth Doctor's regeneration (a regrown hand) for witchcraft. The Doctor can pass himself off as a God/Wizard/Magician if he wants to. He just doesn't need to very often.
Daibhid C: Anybody can pass themselves off as a god or magician in the right circumstances. All you need is to know the time of an eclipse 8-). In "The Daemons" the Doctor poses as a magician through deviousness and a remote control for his car; two things that are also posessed by James Bond. The Doctor may appear to be a magician to Trojans, superstitious devil-worshippers and inhabitants of alternate universes where magic is real anyway but I'm not sure that qualifies him for Q-level status. (In fact, since magic works in Morgaine's dimension, it's entirely possible the Merlin incarnation was a magician...)
Seth: Wait wait wait... Wesley Crusher, The Wesley Crusher - Ascended to a higher plain of existence? I didn't see those episodes but how much did they hate the fans.
Paul A: As I recall, actually, most fans felt that they'd been done a favour — now that Wesley's spending most of his time on another plane of existence, we don't have to put up with him hanging around on this one.
Inyssius: I'm gonna cut the Protoss, for reasons that are too obvious to explain despite the fact that explaining would take less time than explaining why I'm not going to has.
Roxana: I agree with John Crichton; Godlike Aliens are pains in the fundament. They have lousy manners, rotten attitude and the morals and ethics of spoiled brats.
Rakuen: I'd suggest the whole Cthulhu argument on the main page get condensed or solved. I've not even read the books, but surely someone can stamp it out..?
Looney Toons: Snipped the following because it's just outright wrong. Kryptonians are nowhere close to being like, say, the Q.
- In the Superman mythos, Kryptonians were like this. They had a red sun, which didn't give them superpowers but had extremely advanced technology. However, they were also extremely arrogant, choosing to not listen to Jor-El. Their shortcomings have been laid bare in the recent New Krypton event, where now they are still technologically advanced and are starting to develop superpowers, but believe themselves superior to humanity and our laws (and even the Green Lantern Corps) and thinking they are so infallible, they reinstate General Zod as their military leader (the real kicker is that New Kryton's leader is Supes' aunt, who completely ignores her nephew's pleas for interplanetary cooperation).
- Actually, if I remember well, at his entrance as Superman, his background, including of maybe being a God, is disputed. Also, even if his powers are somewhat explained by technology, they are still seen more as God-like abilities. As a reinfocement, Zod claims to be God to the people of Earth, without knowledge of Superman's existence. If Superman weren't saving people for years until then, to get the people used to his powers, Zod & co might have been able to pull it off.
macroscopic: Removed the Lovecraft argument as mentioned above, and another similar one about Star Trek. Really the term 'god' being ill-defined is what causes this trope in the first place so I don't see what arguing about it is going to do.
