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This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

From YKTTW

Kana: A large slice of the anime section seems questionable at best. Ouran, Genshiken, Excel, and Haruhi all reference a lot of tropes, but do little to no deconstructing, they're just parody. FLCL, Kujibiki Unbalance, Yu-Gi-Oh GX and Lucky Star would barely even be considered parody. Nadesico does have some deconstruction, though I'm not sure I'd consider it fleet. Evangelion, Utena are pretty deserving to be in here. Haven't seen the others, so can't comment on them.

Tamsin: Is there a reason Hitchhikers is down as a TV series? I haven't seen it, but I thought the TV version was pretty much the radio version with visuals.

Basically I want to add Hitchhikers as Radio (seeing as that's what it was originally) and computer game (as it's "the first game to move beyond being 'user friendly'" by being 'user insulting' and 'user mendacious')... but four instances of the same franchise may be overdoing it a touch.

Ununnilium: Ahem: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy covers the entire franchise, and has links to the different individual versions. Editing the entry.

Deus Ex Biotica: Nearly half the things here aren't true Deconstructions: Galaxy Quest and Order of the Stick are notably Affectionate Parodies, for example, while The Simpsons and Futurama are... sitcoms. As in, the kind that aren't deconstructing anything, save in a few significant episodes. Compare with Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (deconstructing Sci-Fi, while Galaxy Quest parodies it) and Seinfeld (deconstructing Sit Coms, while The Simpsons is an example) to see what I mean. If there's no response in a couple days, I'll shorten this list considerably.

Sci Vo: The description links to Affectionate Parody, which I think is very similar in its effect of discrediting tropes. I think that people are picking up on the extensive use of metafiction in The Simpsons and Futurama when they add those here. Should we add something to the description about how that's different? Also, isn't Deconstructor Fleet a Fan-Speak term? I just want to make sure before I add it to that index.

Deus Ex Biotica: I would consider it to be Fan-Speak, but then, I consider everything here to be Fan-Speak save the quotes. What else is this wiki, after all?

As for why I draw a line between the Fleet and Affectionate Parodies, here's the crucial text from the existant (and not written by me) pages:
  • [Affectionate Parodies] often function as both a send-up of a genre and an honest member of it. Generally, there's some kind of underlying plot, a twisted version of a stock tale, and actual characters, even if they're swathed in cliches like a mummy in wrappings.
  • A Deconstructionist show will not just make fun of its genre, but attack it. Often, it will show that the genre's tropes (consciously or not) represent a very dark moral. The most common way to do this is to take a trope (often a comic one) and play it utterly realistically — showing just how bad an idea it would be in the real world.
Therefore, if it is either an "honest member" of the genre (Futurama is actual Sci-Fi, if self-mocking Sci-Fi), or clearly showing what's good about it (Galaxy Quest bends over backwards to sell us on the "dream" of Sci-Fi), it's an Affectionate Parody. If it attacks the genre (Watchmen says pretty much flat-out that if you're choosing to be a costumed hero, something is wrong with you), or radically slides the scale to a much more "realistic" place (Seinfeld tells us that Sitcom types really would be crappy friends), it's a Deconstruction.

Does anyone dispute these definitions?

Sci Vo: Right, there's a difference between deconstruction and affectionate parody. It appears to me that this little bit of fan-speak is not making that distinction. The examples that don't fit are actually mentioned in the YKTTW; it's the title that's inaccurate. It seems to me that what they intend to describe are those shows which break tropes out of their happy places and look at them from an off-center view, ultimately resulting in their exhaustion and the need for either reconstruction or new tropes entirely. Subversion, deconstruction and parody all do that.

Deus Ex Biotica: So... this one needs a new name? Something more general.

Filby: How is Ouran High School Host Club a deconstruction? It seemed like pretty straight-up Fanservice to me.

That Other 1 Dude: It's suppose to be a parody of all Shojo cliches and character types, though it falls under Affectionate Parody. However, I myself question the inclusion of Suzumiya Haruhi.

Lord Seth: Should Yu-Gi-Oh The Abridged Series be listed and if so where?

Why, exactly is Mobile Suit Gundam listed here? or Yu-Gi-Oh GX, Metal Gear Solid, or Animaniacs for that matter. Just because something comments on a trope doesn't mean it deconstructs it

Filby: I think the list is getting a little bloated. A lot of the things listed as deconstructions are really just parodies, pastiches, or use Lampshade Hanging a lot without actually challenging and/or subverting all the tropes of its genre, which is what a deconstruction is.

Re: Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series, I'd say not, since it doesn't deconstruct anything, just parodies.

Smokie: Deconstruction, Deconstruction, Deconstruction, DeconstruBLAHBLAH - I thought the definition of Deconstructor Fleet is basically "sinking its meathooks into any trope it can find and folding and spindling it to shreds". If everyone is just comparing this to, no, defining this as Deconstruction, then what purpose does this trope have? And yes, Affectionate Parodies can very well fit here. This is not about how something is subverted (in the critical way, like Deconstruction), but rather to which degree. A normal parody parodies one genre (and only tropes that are used there). A Deconstructor Fleet would use tropes from every field it can find and use it in a completely new sense, making the entire show somehow subverted, that's why things like Lucky Star, Suzumiya Haruhi, The Simpsons and Futurama fit here very well. Maybe I misunderstood the definition of this trope. But look at what you wrote. You question every show that is listed here because "it's not a deconstruction, it jus-I LOVE NGE". Then how is Deconstructor Fleet any different to Deconstruction? I don't really think this was the intention of this trope.
That Other 1 Dude: I question the purpose of this page. Only about a fourth of the example are actually deconstructions, and Deconstruction and Affectionate Parody already seem to fill the purpose.

Wascally Wabbit: It has the Grandfather Claus but yeah it is redundant.
Sean Tucker: I bolded NGE's name because it's literally a complete deconstruction of the mecha anime genre. It plays a grand total of three tropes straight, namely Emotionless Girl (Trope Maker), Theme Music Power-Up, and Break the Cutie.
How is Dune a deconstruction of what?

B Ktrn: I'd say either replace Yugioh GX with Yugioh 5 Ds or remove it. 5D's instead because it is such a major departure from the normal Yugioh format. Truly, though, removal is best.
Puffy Treat: Shouldn't "Sailor Nothing" be listed under "Web Originals" instead of "Literature"?
Wascally Wabbit: This page seems to be nothing but a restatement of the examples from Deconstruction.