This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Working Title: proposal: split Character Alignment: From YKTTW
Man Without A Body: Despite the picture, I'm pretty sure Robin Hood is the ultimate in Chaotic Good. But, as I believe we've gotten all these from that website with all the RPG Fauxtivational Posters, there's not much to do about it.
Kerrah: Here
◊ is one I just made. Good enough?
Smokie: I erased Haruhi Suzumiya from Chaotic Neutral and put her into True Neutral, given to that she actually does have her restrains and morals. She fits True Neutral type 5 just too well. Instead, I put Asakura Ryoko in Chaotic Neutral.
Shockz: Restraints? Morals? Are we talking about the same Haruhi who pulled the computer blackmail incident here? "Ultimate free spirit"..."good character with wild streak"..."does whatever the hell [she] likes and damn the consequences"...sounds like Haruhi to me. I'm putting her back in, but I won't remove her from True Neutral.
Smokie: My descision was too harsh, I see that. You actually do have a point. It is hard to see what Haruhi actually fits into. Unreliable Narrator Kyon's thoughts about it do not always help either. Let me first say though, that the blackmail incident was at the very beginning of the series. In the later course of the story, she definitely gets True Neutral with a streak to good. What I meant by restrains are things like that she wouldn't kill a person for the sake of mysterious events or wouldn't harm an innocent (Let me clearify that in her view, the club president wasn't innocent, since he denied her a computer. This may seem cruel or insane, since it isn't evil at all.. But it's Haruhi we are talking about here. Textbook egocentric). What I meant by morals are things such as the rules she sets up by herself. (I can't tell if this is meant to be True Neutral, Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral). At least, they are rules. This is basically the main reason why I put her into True Neutral, but hence the many facets of her personality, which makes her even more unpredictable, it might as well be Chaotic Neutral.
Taelor: The way I understand it, Chaos in the Dn D sense isn't so much about not having any rules, as not accepting rules from outside sources. By this definition, Haruhi pretty much the gold standard of chaotic neutral characters.
Monsund:Yeah many people new to Dn D seem to have the wrong idea about the alighment system. Believing Lawful=most good, Neutral=middle, and Chaotic=least good which is far from the truth.
Wraith_Magus: I've always hated that... Paladins set entirely the wrong example. (Any time such an argument starts, Paladins are ALWAYS pulled up as an example of why "lawful good is just better". You know, in spite of having everything "good" being clearly part of the "good" axis.) Paladins must be Lawful Good not because Lawful Good is the "true" good, but because they are an expressly military order, based upon the knights templar and other crusaders, with the expectation to follow military chain of command. Honestly, I really don't like the concept of paladins at all, as I think it muddies the notion of good. Players of paladins often are not playing "good" characters because they believe that the code they follow always brings about the best results, and by extension, believe in the philosophy they are following. They don't do good things because they just feel like being "good". They do "good" things because the DM is holding a gun to their head, threatening to strip away all their neat superpowers the instant they screw it up sufficiently enough. (Depending, of course, on the cruelty or leniency of the DM.) It's actually part of why I've always been partial to Chaotic Good. It's the alignment that believes that everyone should have the greatest freedom of choice possible. Because it's only really good when you have a serious choice to make, one where you can sometimes see that the ends might justify those means, or that the means might not justify the ends, not one that is a forgone conclusion where you must use the only means you have given to you, maybe trying to find what little wiggle room you can, and you STILL choose the best decision, whatever it might be...
Austin: From what I know of the Orks, I don't think they belong here. The Dn D supplements I've read make it clear that it's actions that determine alignments, not motivations. Killing things for fun is text book chaotic evil.
- Technically: yes. Orks should be labelled as Chaotic Evil; what may keep them in the CN category could be the "over-the-top" treatment they receive, and the fact that they genuinely think you enjoy the fight as much as they do!
Count Dorku: Then delete it. It is a wiki, after all.
- As for the Eldar: Eldar society is anything but Chaothic Neutral: each individual must choose a one way, whether it is war, divination or art and must follow this path until completion. then, and only then, can he choose another activity. That would make Eldar society and individuals Lawful Neutral. On the galactic scale, however, they attitude towards other races is one of a True Neutral , type 5: they ally with whoever it is more convenient for the survival of the Eldar race. By the time of the Fall of the Eldar, they had devolved from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Evil, but now they have learned their lesson
Action Zero: Removed the following from here and booting her over to Chaotic Evil, I've always understood it as being actions that determine alignment, not if you "understand what evil is." I would also argue that that line itself about understanding what evil is comes from someone trying to read something in her character that just plain isn't there, and I suspect from the Double Standard line that it's a Nena fan who's upset over the majority not agreeing with them. Murdering all but one at a wedding, then killing Wang when she could have just left if she disagreed with her puts her squarely in evil. Helping CB doesn't help given how it was entirely for her own ends.
- Nena Trinity from Gundam 00, who killed all the guests at a wedding and mutilated Louise Halevy just to vent her frustrations. She was once considered Chaotic Evil (thanks to some one-sided hatred in fandom due to her gender), but since she seems to be a doted homebred Tyke-Bomb without much understanding of what true evil is (unlike Ali, who states himself that he's Chaotic Evil), Chaotic Neutral seems to fit her best.
Shini: Added Guybrush and Qara to Chaotic Neutral, and realized Disgaea demons were listed twice so I removed this:
- While most demons in Disgaea claim they're chaotic evil, they're rather bad at being evil (Poke the Poodle comes to mind), thus their true alignment is chaotic neutral. Except the psychopaths, they're full blown chaotic evil.
Since the one further down the page is more descriptive and showed examples
Sovvil: I find it interesting that Haruhi Suzumiya, a girl that had loads of Kick the Dog moments ,such as the blackmail incident and (no matter how you see it), killing a person for denying her a computer, and was a Bully is considered Chaotic Neutral though? sure she became better but come on!
Anyways, I wanted to write down something interesting about how I (you may not agree, though. feel free to post your protests) thought that the difference is between Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil.
Lets say for example they made their living off stealing from other people (poverty and other factors that may excuse this behaviour is not included in this situation). Here is how the difference could be.
Chaotic Good characters does have loved ones. They will only steal from those who genuinely deserved it (such as someone who got rich through extortion) and will donate a substansial amount of money to charity.
Chaotic Neutral characters also have loved ones. They will only steal from those who genuinely deserved it (such as someone who got rich through extortion), but, unlike the Chaotic Good characters, will keep all the money for themselves (and their loved ones, probably)
Chaotic Evil characters, too, have loved ones. Like the Chaotic Neutral characters, they will keep all the money for themselves (and their loved ones, probably) but they don't care who they steal it from. They will just as likely steal it from an extortionist as they are likely to steal it from an honest, hardworking man.
Here is where the difference between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil is in - in relation to the innocent. Whereas Chaotic Neutral characters will mind stealing from random strangers and will only do so if they are really desperate (as in, poverty) the chaoticevil will not only steal if they are desperate, but also if it is profitable and they are sure they can get away from it.
This is the reason why I'm bothered that someone like Haruhi Suzumiya is considered to have started off as Chaotic Neutral instead of Chaotic Evil. She doesn't seem to lack the ability to make a moral judgement like an animal does (again, correct me if I'm wrong)
