Discussion History Analysis / AntiHero

\\\"Contrast with JerkSue, ByronicHero, BloodKnight, UberMensch, TheUnfettered, and VillainSue\\\"

This was my compromise on the matter, as the previous version was to list all of them as defining tropes, which they technically are, but for one ByronicHero doesn\\\'t seem to necessarily \\\'\\\'need\\\'\\\' to be a type V, just moody, and as such could just as well be a type III. Much of the entire premise of type V is also complete power-tripping lack of restraint, to just cut lose with sadism, mass-murder, and overkill through any flimsy excuse complete fantasy scenario that you can come up with. To say the least, JerkSue, BloodKnight, PsychoForHire, UberMensch, TheUnfettered, and VillainSue are all a very defining part of that, with plenty of common examples, and \\\"Contrast with\\\"/\\\"Compare with\\\" at the end is a very common praxis on most pages. So yes, at least some of them should stay, whereas ByronicHero isn\\\'t really any more defining than the rest, and as such shouldn\\\'t be listed as unique. However, I\\\'m willing to compromise/strictly keep the most relevant.

\\\"Contrast with JerkSue, ByronicHero, BloodKnight, UberMensch, TheUnfettered, and VillainSue\\\"

This was my compromise on the matter, as the previous version was to list all of them as defining tropes, which they technically are, but for one ByronicHero doesn\\\'t seem to necessarily \\\'\\\'need\\\' to be a type V, just moody, and as such could just as well be a type III. Much of the entire premise of type V is also lack of restraint, to just cut lose with sadism, mass-murder, and overkill through any flimsy excuse complete fantasy scenario that you can come up with. To say the least, BloodKnight, PsychoForHire, UberMensch, TheUnfettered, and VillainSue are all a very defining part of that, with plenty of common examples, and \\\"Contrast with\\\"/\\\"Compare with\\\" at the end is a very common praxis on most pages. So yes, at least some of them should stay, whereas ByronicHero isn\\\'t really any more defining than the rest.

Lisbeth is either a type III or IV. I\\\'m not personally sure which, as she swings between them. On the one hand she has suffered ridiculous amounts of psychic torture, still perseveres and maintains strong if unusual ethics, is in a very desperate outmatched situation where she usually has only herself to count on, and is technically no more extreme than Hartigan, she\\\'s simply socially handicapped, so lots of people tend to just view that part as an excuse to bump her type down further, whereas a charismatic MagnificentBastard casual massmurderer gets away with far more. On the other hand, if extremely pressed by a CompleteMonster type she will systematically and efficiently kill the threat, alternately use low-level torture to get her current abuser in charge to stop raping her or somebody else. She is also not nearly as extreme as plenty of the other type IV\\\'s, but I\\\'m willing to put her in a comparatively mild type of this with question mark though. However, she isn\\\'t strictly PayEvilUntoEvil, as it is more a case of finding desperate solutions when the law ignores it. Basically, compare with somebody sticking you in a isolation cell and raping you for several years, and then saying that you aren\\\'t allowed to defend yourself to make them stop doing so. She was fine with the system actually proving that it could handle things, and technically does less to Bjurman than what was doen to herself. What I see as pushing her into type IV isn\\\'t that part. It\\\'s that she robs a financial swindler of a billion bucks \\\'\\\'to mostly keep it for herself\\\'\\\', and can get downright sociopathic in her detached method of dealing with things (the scene in the third book when defending herself against her half-brother, by using a nail-gun to attach his limbs to the floor, then calmly waiting for him to die, calling a criminal motorcycle gang to frame them for the murder, and then going to have a soda).

Lisbeth is either a type III or IV. I\\\'m not personally sure which, as she swings between them. On the one hand she has suffered ridiculous amounts of psychic torture, still perseveres and maintains strong if unusual ethics, is in a very desperate outmatched situation where she usually has only herself to count on, and is technically no more extreme than Hartigan, she\\\'s simply socially handicapped, so lots of people tend to just view that part as an excuse to bump her type down further, whereas a charismatic MagnificentBastard casual massmurderer gets away with far more. On the other hand, if extremely pressed by a CompleteMonster type she will systematically and efficiently kill the threat, alternately use low-level torture to get her current abuser in charge to stop raping her or somebody else. She is also not nearly as extreme as plenty of the other type IV\\\'s, but I\\\'m willing to put her in a comparatively mild type of this with question mark though. However, she isn\\\'t strictly PayEvilUntoEvil, as it is more a case of finding desperate solutions when the law ignores it. Basically, compare with somebody sticking you in a isolation cell and raping you for several years, and then saying that you aren\\\'t allowed to defend yourself to make them stop doing so. She was fine with the system actually proving that it could handle things, and technically does less to Bjurman than what was doen to herself. What I see as pushing her into type IV isn\\\'t that part. It\\\'s that she robs a financial swindler of a billion bucks, and can get downright sociopathic in her detached method of dealing with things (the scene in the third book when defending herself against her half-brother, by using a nail-gun to attach his limbs to the floor, then calmly waiting for him to die, calling a criminal motorcycle gang to frame them for the murder, and then going to have a soda).

Lisbeth is either a type III or IV. I\\\'m not personally sure which. On the one hand she has suffered ridiculous amounts of psychic torture, still perseveres and maintains strong if unusual ethics, is in a very desperate outmatched situation where she usually has only herself to count on, and is technically no more extreme than Hartigan, she\\\'s simply socially handicapped, so lots of people tend to just view that part as an excuse to bump her type down further, whereas a charismatic MagnificentBastard casual massmurderer gets away with far more. On the other hand, if extremely pressed by a CompleteMonster type she will systematically and efficiently kill the threat, alternately use low-level torture to get her current abuser in charge to stop raping her or somebody else. She is also not nearly as extreme as plenty of the other type IV\\\'s, but I\\\'m willing to put her in a comparatively mild type of this with question mark though. However, she isn\\\'t strictly PayEvilUntoEvil, as it is more a case of finding desperate solutions when the law ignores it. Basically, compare with somebody sticking you in a isolation cell and raping you for several years, and then saying that you aren\\\'t allowed to defend yourself to make them stop doing so. She was fine with the system actually proving that it could handle things, and technically does less to Bjurman than what was doen to herself. What I see as pushing her into type IV isn\\\'t that part. It\\\'s that she robs a financial swindler of a billion bucks, and can get downright sociopathic in her detached method of dealing with things (the scene in the third book when defending herself against her half-brother, by using a nail-gun to attach his limbs to the floor, then calmly waiting for him to die, calling a criminal motorcycle gang to frame them for the murder, and then going to have a soda).

Lisbeth is either a type III or IV. I\\\'m not personally sure which. On the one hand she has suffered ridiculous amounts of psychic torture, still perseveres and maintains strong if unusual ethics, is in a very desperate outmatched situation where she usually has only herself to count on, and is technically no more extreme than Hartigan, she\\\'s simply socially handicapped, so lots of people tend to just view that part as an excuse to bump her type down further, whereas a charismatic MagnificentBastard casual massmurderer gets away with far more. On the other hand, if extremely pressed by a CompleteMonster type she will systematically and efficiently kill the threat, alternately use low-level torture to get her current abuser in charge to stop raping her or somebody else. She is also not nearly as extreme as plenty of the other type IV\\\'s, but I\\\'m willing to put her in a comparatively mild type of this with question mark though. However, she isn\\\'t strictly PayEvilUntoEvil, as it is more a case of finding desperate solutions when the law ignores it. Basically, compare with somebody sticking you in a isolation cell and raping you for several years, and then saying that you aren\\\'t allowed to defend yourself to make them stop doing so. She was fine with the system actually proving that it could handle things. What may push her into type IV isn\\\'t that part. It\\\'s that she robs a financial swindler of a billion bucks.

So afaIk he\\\'s an overpowered wanton overkill casual massmurderer VillainProtagonist without compassion, restraint, or idealism, definitely more extreme than ThePunisher, who is a type V, so yes Schneider is a CompleteMonster by real world standards, and definitely a far gone type V.

Also, I\\\'m getting very tired of cclospina removing
\\\"Contrast with JerkSue, ByronicHero, BloodKnight, UberMensch, TheUnfettered, and VillainSue\\\"

This was my compromise on the matter, as the previous version was to list all of them as defining tropes, which they technically are, but for one ByronicHero doesn\\\'t seem to necessarily \\\'\\\'need\\\' to be a type V, just moody, and as such could just as well be a type III. The entire premise of type V is also lack of restraint, to just cut lose with sadism, mass-murder, and overkill with any flimsy excuse fantasy scenario that you can come up with. To say the least, BloodKnight, PsychoForHire, UberMensch, TheUnfettered, and VillainSue are all a very defining part of that, with plenty of common examples, and \\\"Contrast with\\\"/\\\"Compare with\\\" at the end is a very common praxis on most pages. So yes, at least some of them should stay, whereas ByronicHero isn\\\'t really any more defining than the rest.

So afaIk he\\\'s an overpowered wanton overkill casual massmurderer VillainProtagonist without compassion, restraint, or idealism, definitely more extreme than ThePunisher, who is a type V, so yes Schneider is a CompleteMonster by real world standards, and definitely a far gone type V.

Lisbeth is either a type III or IV. I\\\'m not personally sure which. On the one hand she has suffered ridiculous amounts of psychic torture, still perseveres and maintains strong if unusual ethics, is in a very desperate outmatched situation where she usually has only herself to count on, and is technically no more extreme than Hartigan, she\\\'s simply socially handicapped, so lots of people tend to just view that part as an excuse to bump her type down further, whereas a charismatic MagnificentBastard casual massmurderer gets away with far more. On the other hand, if extremely pressed by a CompleteMonster type she will systematically and efficiently kill the threat, alternately use low-level torture to get her current abuser in charge to stop raping her or somebody else. She is also not nearly as extreme as plenty of the other type IV\\\'s, but I\\\'m willing to put her in a comparatively mild type of this with question mark though.

He\\\'s a wanton overkill massmurderer VillainProtagonist without compassion, restraint, or idealism, definitely more extreme than ThePunisher, who is a type V, so yes Schneider is a CompleteMonster by real world standards, and definitely a far gone type V.

Dark Schneider... well, it\\\'s been several years, but as far as I remember he is SealedEvilInACan, used to be the warmongering, massmurdering, cheerfully sadistic and overkill-loving BloodKnight supremacist tyrant of the world; keeps up the same behaviour; and states outright that he will do it all over again at first opportunity; which sounds like an accurate description of an EvilOverlord to me at least.

He\\\'s a wanton overkill massmurderer VillainProtagonist without compassion, restraint, or idealism, definitely more extreme than ThePunisher, who is a type V, so yes Schneider is a CompleteMonster by real world standards, and definitely a type V.