| 1 | %% |
| 2 | %% Color is no longer permitted on the wiki. Please reformat this page. |
| 3 | %% |
| 4 | !! This is a list of Wild Mass Guesses which are still possibly true. JustForFun and silly guesses go on the [[WMG/UminekoWhenTheyCrySilly silly page]]. If a WMG is {{Jossed}}, please move it to the [[WMG/UminekoWhenTheyCryJossed jossed page]], if it is Confirmed, please move it to the [[WMG/UminekoWhenTheyCryConfirmed confirmed page.]] |
| 5 | |
| 6 | ''Please add new entries to the bottom of the page.'' |
| 7 | ---- |
| 8 | |
| 9 | [[WMG: Bernkastel is TheVirus]] |
| 10 | This is generally hinted at throughout ''Umineko'', but I'd like to enumerate it. We know from ''Higurashi'' that "Frederica is not Furude Rika", but we also know that Bernkastel is probably an agglutination of all of those dead Rikas throughout ''Higurashi''. [[spoiler:Featherine Augusta Aurora is somehow related to Hanyuu, but not Hanyuu herself.]] The theory is that Bernkastel and Featherine are extremely powerful possible versions of Rika and Hanyuu and that, like an opportunistic infection, they forcibly write themselves into kakera after kakera (possibly overwriting the personalities of the existing Rika and Hanyuu). Either the ''Higurashi'' universe is one of the kakera that escaped this treatment or [[WMG/PoisonOakEpilepticTrees the Rika and Hanyuu we all know and love are the ones who went evil in the first place]]. |
| 11 | * Poison oak or not, that one might be correct. [[color:red:Rika and Hanyuu essentially overwrite the personality of the new world's Rika and Hanyuu.]] |
| 12 | ** [[color:red: Whenever we see Rika incarnate into a new world it is right after the Rika of that world has had an experience that she could have died from.]] [[color:blue: In every case the native Rika actually did die, but Hanyuu used her powers to revive the body and attach the "main" Rika's soul to it. Thus, the native Rika's soul simply does whatever the souls of the dead normally do.]] |
| 13 | *** [[color:red:You have not proposed a mechanism by which Bernkastel and [[spoiler:Featherine]] write themselves into new universes!]] [[color:blue:They use the method you outlined above!]] |
| 14 | *** [[color:gold:Bernkastel is '''not''' Furude Rika.]] Shame on you if you thought so. [[color:red:Bernkastel originated as a ''database'' from which Hanyuu extracted the memories of 'her' Rika, with which she replaced the different kakera's native Rikas because having so many copies of the same memories was taking a toll on Rika's sanity.]] [[color:blue: I propose that Bernkastel's malice and insanity are results of being a creature created to store the massive backlog of memories from hundreds or thousands of Bad Ends.]] [[color:red:Bernkastel is indeed TheVirus and ''a'' Furude Rika (many of them, actually), but the Furude Rika who turns the calendar to 1 July Showa 58 is not the Furude Rika who is the BigBad of ''Umineko''.]] [[color:red:Not enough is known about Featherine yet to speculate firmly,]] [[color:blue:but I suggest that she is a similarly 'corrupted' (like a bad Temporary File in a computer) Hanyuu.]] |
| 15 | |
| 16 | [[WMG: Kumasawa wrote the bottle messages.]] |
| 17 | The writer of the messages had the same handwriting as the "Beatrice" in Maria's Grimoire. Maria claims to have met Beatrice every year on the island, so it stands to reason that they were there that year too. Kumasawa appears to narrate certain details, ones that would otherwise go unexplained for several games, a few times early in the first game as if she were the one telling the story. |
| 18 | |
| 19 | [[WMG: Maria really does understand (somewhat) the things Battler asks her to promise to him. She promises anyway because she developed a crush on him when they met at the airport.]] |
| 20 | Uu~ Maria doesn't have many human friends... But Battler understands Maria Uu~ |
| 21 | |
| 22 | Uu~ Everything's more fun when Battler's around Uu~ Battler even knows about Halloween Uu~ If only Maria could get Battler to believe in magic Uuu~ |
| 23 | |
| 24 | * [[NoYay No.]] Just...[[{{Squick}} no.]] |
| 25 | ** Aw, you're no fun... Uu~! Maria's glad to see Beatrice again! Maybe now... Uu~? [[WomanScorned Why is Battler paying so much attention to Beatrice?]] [[GreenEyedMonster Why has Battler forgotten about Maria?]] Uu~. [[{{Yandere}} Maybe it's not such a good thing Beatrice's here.]] [[MurderTheHypotenuse Maybe Beatrice needs to sleep forever.]] [[IfICantHaveYou Maybe Battler should join her if he likes her so much.]] |
| 26 | *** (Respondent here.) [[color:red:You will not harm Battler Ushiromiya nor Beatrice The Golden Witch!]] [[color:red:I will not allow you to harm them!]] If you want your petty revenge against your cousin and your teacher, you will have to go through me. Do you think you can defeat me? ''Come, [[http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Kalin_Kessler try to satisfy me,]] '''MARIA USHIROMIYAAA!!!''''' |
| 27 | *** (Other respondent.)[[color:blue: Uu~, Maria doesn't need to defeat you. Maria doesn't even need to harm them herself. Don't you see the thirteen corpses Maria's helper left lying around? It will be midnight soon, and then the ninth twilight will come. Sleep in peace, my ''[[SarcasmMode beloved]]'' witch Beatrice.]] |
| 28 | *** (Respondent here.) I meant what I said, arrogant child. If you want your revenge, you must defeat me in this game. Also, what do you mean by the thirteen...? * looks at a bonfire, thirteen bodies can be seen burning* Oh, those? Thought it wouldn't be respectful to leave them lying around. Your helper? You mean that person? * a faraway gallows has someone hanging from it, but neither the gender or the identity can be verified* Heh, not their first time doing it. Harumph. Arrogant girl. Know your place. [[note]]I know, I'm god-modding by offing the new elements, but I'm just messing around.[[/note]] |
| 29 | |
| 30 | [[WMG:An explanation of the first twilight and Maria's death as derived from Maria's dream]] |
| 31 | Isn't it odd that most of the first-person statesments in Maria's dream actually belong to ''Rosa''? [[color:red:Maria, in fact, in theory only gets one line of first-person, and it's a line on a screen that has nothing except for context to indicate that it is, in fact, Maria speaking.]] |
| 32 | |
| 33 | [[color:red:If we yank the first person lines of the dream out of the context they're given in, we have Rosa waking up on a cold floor, meeting a child, coming to the conclusion that the child is Sakutaro and referring to him like that a few different times. Although he doesn't correct her, he doesn't confirm it either.]] We maybe have him saying that she needs to get away from Maria because Maria's not Maria anymore(I'm debating how much dialogue is relevant if we're removing narration from context. My leaning is to include it only where it is on the same screen as first-person narration). Then things start to get weird, where her head hurts a lot in connection to the "uryus", he leaves a hole in her hand, and then she denies him and he disappears (I forget whether this bit is in first-person or not). [[color:red:Rosa sees Maria and the silhouette of an adult behind her (Presumably Beatrice), and then after a lot of yelling, Rosa is torn apart by her own hands. Loads of third person. The next time we get the first person again is one line close to the end of the scene - "I erased that laughing voice. Next, I'll erase that laughing face."]] |
| 34 | |
| 35 | [[color:red:One of the recurring theories as to how the first twilight of any arc could be possible is via a drug. However, Knox's 4th states on this matter that it can't be an unknown poison (in other words, drug).]] [[color:blue:Therefore, we must get more specific.]] [[color:red:There are already plenty of drugs that can make people have weird hallucinations,]] [[color:blue:but we don't even need to go that far. Just one that makes someone more suggestible - in other words, a depressant in the right dosage.]] Honestly, I would look at something like Ketamine - one of the "date rape drugs" - since [[color:red:it has both depressant and hallucinogenic qualities.]] In fact, as further evidence, I submit to you a section of Website/ThatOtherWiki on Ketamine - my own speculations in red & blue: |
| 36 | |
| 37 | "Ketamine produces effects similar to PCP and DXM. Unlike the other well known dissociatives PCP and DXM, ketamine is very short acting, its hallucinatory effects lasting sixty minutes when insufflated or injected and up to two hours when ingested, the total experience lasting no more than a couple of hours.[71] [[color:red:What ever was given to Kyrie et al. assuming none of them are the culprit could not last very long. Although for them, it did have to be even shorter than what's specified here.]] [[color:blue:However, for Rosa, if we assume my theory about Maria, the time frame is just about perfect.]] Like other dissociative anaesthetics, hallucinations caused by ketamine are fundamentally different from those caused by tryptamines and phenethylamines. At low doses, hallucinations are only seen when one is in a dark room with one's eyes closed, while at medium to high doses the effects are far more intense and obvious.[72] [[color:blue:I am, of course, vouching for the "medium to high dosages" point.]] |
| 38 | |
| 39 | Ketamine produces a dissociative state, characterised by a sense of detachment from one's physical body and the external world which is known as depersonalization and derealization.[73] [[color:blue:Rosa's description of the dimension she was in sounds a lot like this.]] At sufficiently high doses (e.g. 150 mg intramuscular), users may experience what is coined the "K-hole", a state of dissociation whose effects are thought to mimic the phenomenology of schizophrenia.[74] Users may experience worlds or dimensions that are ineffable, all the while being completely unaware of their individual identities or the external world. Users have reported intense hallucinations including visual hallucinations, perceptions of falling [[color:red: This matches the account given by Kyrie, Krauss, Kanon, Shannon, and Nanjo]], fast and gradual movement and flying, 'seeing God', feeling connected to other users, objects and the cosmos, experiencing psychic connections, and shared hallucinations and thoughts with adjacent users. John C. Lilly[75], Marcia Moore[76] and D. M. Turner[77] (among others) have written extensively about their own spiritual/psychonautic use of ketamine. (Both Moore[78] and Turner[79] died prematurely in a way that has been linked to their ketamine use.)" |
| 40 | |
| 41 | [[color:blue:What we are seeing in the first part is Rosa waking up while under the influence of the drug. She sees a child. Still trying to fill in the blank on that one. Normally, I'd say it's Maria, but since she shows up later... This is probably the toughest part to fill in. Will get back to it. Rosa's head hurts - that'd be easy under the influence of a lot of different drugs, especially if she were overdosed, which she would probably have to be in a lot of these cases.]] |
| 42 | |
| 43 | [[color:red:Sees Maria and Beatrice.]] [[color:blue:Because of that, I'd yank this scene out of chronological context too and place it around the time Maria goes to take her test.]] [[color:red:Remember how her body is found? In the dining hall - the same place as the first twilight victims - including Rosa! And without any external injuries, so Battler himself theorizes that she was killed by poison.]] [[color:blue:This is before any of the adults have had their faces removed, although they may be dead (I would theorize that Rosa's relative lucidity was an unintended element). Chances are, they were just about to poison her - give her a snack while they talked, or something.]] |
| 44 | |
| 45 | In fact, [[color:blue:I would take Maria's body being found in the dining room without injury as a support for the theory that the actual deaths of those six occur later than we are led to believe.]] It's not proof because she could have been killed in another room with the dining room with the dining room itself sealed off from her sight. [[color:blue:However, I propose that she was, in fact, killed in the dining room. She saw the adults napping in their chairs and was told either:]] |
| 46 | |
| 47 | [[color:blue:a. They're napping. She's shown quite a few times to be gullible, so I wouldn't put falling for this past her.]] |
| 48 | |
| 49 | [[color:blue:b. They're going to the Golden Land. They don't look hurt; they look peaceful. That would comfort her, and she would be fine with the situation.]] |
| 50 | |
| 51 | Now, here's why I don't think she could have been led into the dining room if they were killed with their heads smashed at the time we think they were - [[color:blue:seeing the adults with faces half-gone would be an immediate warning to * RUN* for her.]] [[color:red:She still has some sort of sense of danger, even if she'll be led to the Golden Land. We saw that at the end of the second arc.]] Sure, that could have happened, and she could have been injected with something, but in that case, you'd expect to see some sort of evidence of a struggle, like an injury. [[color:red:There weren't any.]] |
| 52 | |
| 53 | [[color:blue:So Rosa sees Maria and tries to go over to her without understanding what's going on around her, when she is grabbed by someone - I would definitely place this person among the fifteen, but I think the one behind Maria, if (s)he is among the ones we know of as that group, is very well disguised. Rosa is too doped to figure out that the hands grabbing her are, in fact, someone else's and thinks that they're her own hands.]] |
| 54 | |
| 55 | [[color:red:Then we have that one line - "I erased that laughing voice. Next, I'll erase that laughing face."]] Doesn't necessarily need to refer to Rosa here. I would have it as any of the six adults, because remind me how they were found again? Oh yeah - [[color:red:THEIR FACES WERE HALF-GONE.]] I will say this, though - [[color:blue:it's most likely to be Rosa if we allow a tiny bit of context. Probably, knowing who it's referring to would be the key to cracking the mystery.]] |
| 56 | |
| 57 | Now then, I know what you're thinking - "Well, then, why did Gohda and Kumasawa say that they saw the faces half-smashed before running to the guesthouse? [[color:blue:Answer: They were put up to it. After everyone else was drugged and passed out, they were told by the culprit what would happen to everyone. And then, they were told that if they wanted to be spared, to leave and go to the guesthouse while the culprit did that. The culprit, of course, lied to them - their heads were smashed later. They were also told to tell the kids what they were told as if they had witnessed it. If everything worked according to plan, then maybe the children would be spared too. They would definitely be killed if they were found outside the guesthouse. And so they took a chance that they would be able to save someone and did as they were told.]] |
| 58 | |
| 59 | As for why this goes against Kyrie's first-person statements? Frankly, [[color:red:I don't trust them.]] I think that [[color:blue:Kyrie at the very least is aiding the culprit, probably against everyone else's knowledge.]] [[color:red:The fact that she goes so far as to describe the Siesta Sisters and goat-headed butlers]] is suspicious enough, but when it' s looking more and more likely that Shannon and Kanon are one person (see statements about that theory - connects to the sixth game too), the fact [[color:red:she stated that both of their deaths were separate]] makes me even more suspicious. [[color:blue:Thus, I suspect her first-person parts, where she talks about the golden thread smashing the faces, of being lies.]] |
| 60 | |
| 61 | [[color:red:And Krauss never directly says it when he's on the phone. Jessica says that she heard from Kumasawa and Gohda after Krauss basically pauses]] [[color:blue:So what if he paused because he didn't actually know what had happened to Natsuhi when Jessica asked? Then Jessica says that and Krauss is worried about her rushing out to try to rescue Natsuhi, because he doesn't know what Gohda and Kumasawa told her - they may well have said that she was captured, as far as he knows. And so he tells her not to do anything brash.]] |
| 62 | |
| 63 | There may be some other hints that can be gleaned from this scene, but the fact that it was so non-sensical in the flow of the story just makes me want to root around in it even more. |
| 64 | |
| 65 | [[WMG: So. Stakes.]] |
| 66 | They're shafts about yea long. In appearance disgusting, even 'demonic'. Viciously pointed ends. They embody all that is sinful. They're partially autonomous, and might leap up and try to pierce a person even if their bearer doesn't wish them to. They talk at length about how ecstatically pleasant it is pierce flesh. |
| 67 | |
| 68 | ''All of this'' was extrapolated from one phrase in the epitaph about how body parts should be 'gouged' somehow. |
| 69 | |
| 70 | Conclusion: Our killer has ''issues''. '''[[Franchise/JusticeLeagueOfAmerica LOTS]]''' [[WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague of issues.]] |
| 71 | |
| 72 | [[WMG: Battler has lost his magic immunity]] |
| 73 | With Erika promised to take over the role of detective, Piece-Battler's lost any privileged status as 'narrator' or 'witness'. His testimony is no longer any more reliable that any other piece on the board. Because of this, the polite fiction that he never witnessed any witchery in action because of his abnormally strong magic resistance is no longer necessary. |
| 74 | |
| 75 | The next time Battler slinks off on his own, he's going to turn on the lights and BOOM! Piece-Beatrice right up in his face. She'll give him a hug and a kiss, shake his hand and then slap him across the cheek. |
| 76 | -->'''Beatrice:''' I can't ''say'' how long I've wanted to do that. |
| 77 | Then she'll pull his face off, just for old time's sake. |
| 78 | |
| 79 | [[WMG: Battler should be feeling a lot of deja vu right about now]] |
| 80 | There is a woman who loves the Ushiromyia family very much. When she saw the terrible events that would follow from Kinzo's death, she swore to do anything to cover the truth with noble lies. She would gladly drag her reputation through the mud to preserve the honour of the Ushiromiya. |
| 81 | |
| 82 | She never imagined how bad things would get, though, and the strain of constant deceit tears her apart. Worse than that, the witch of miracles has sent a detective against her who constantly attacks and belittles her, pokes holes in her deception and treats her with a chilling lack of love. Worse than ''that'', she's acting under duress, and an enigmatic mastermind sometimes orders her to perform acts which further slander her -- but if she refuses she will suffer the worst of all possible fates. Pinned on a board, she is gradually worn down until at her lowest ebb she breaks and confesses her darkest and most private shame. But it's all too late, zenzen dame da -- the torture has broken her and she'll never be whole again. |
| 83 | |
| 84 | Quickly: did I just describe the events of Episode 5, or Episodes 1 to 4? |
| 85 | |
| 86 | %% So in this metaphor the voice on the telephone would be... Lambdadelta... OH HELL THE VOICE ON THE TELEPHONE WAS LAMBDADELTA |
| 87 | |
| 88 | * This is why I think Natsuhi is at least one of the most appropriate successors to the headship, despite marrying into the family. She ties with Eva for the position, IMO. |
| 89 | |
| 90 | [[WMG: Beatrice is actually three people.]] |
| 91 | Meta-Beatrice, that is. At least, the Beatrice from the first four or five games; whether this still applies to her is debatable, but...meh. Anyway, she is composed of the three Beatrices who existed: The Beatrice Kinzo loved but could not marry, the Beatrice whom Rosa met, and piece-Beatrice, who is also loli-Beatrice from her dream in the beginning of Ep3. |
| 92 | Kinzo did indeed love a woman named Beatrice, but that Beatrice [[DeathByChildbirth died shortly after giving birth to their illegitimate daughter.]] Kinzo had this girl raised in Kuwadorian so he could keep a part of his beloved Beatrice nearby without shaming the family, but then SHE died. Kinzo was now on the grip of insanity and devastation after losing the only reminder of his lover, so he adopted another Beatrice from his orphanage, a baby (or a child) with blonde hair and blue eyes, hoping to raise this girl to become his beloved Beatrice. |
| 93 | |
| 94 | Now, this Beatrice was truly unique. She had a wild imagination but no playmates. She somehow learned about the previous Beatrice's (possibly by going through old diaries left behind in Kuwadorian, and looking up old photos) and these two women combined and became her imaginary friend. Then she met Battler, who promised to come back for her on a white horse (in combination with the Pony Theory). This caused her to take her imaginary playtime with 'Beatrice' to a whole new level; she started dressing up like Beatrice and even claimed that she was Beatrice herself, pretending to be a princess awaiting for her prince to arrive. |
| 95 | |
| 96 | To her misfortune, however, an already unstable Kinzo took her words a little too literally. He visited her one night, and questioned her of her identity, asking if she remembered him. She tried to explain she was just playing make-believe, but he tortured her into 'confessing' to being his beloved Beatrice. After this 'confession', he then proceeded to sexually assault her, believing this was his beloved Beatrice come back to him. Alternately, Genji and Kumasawa showed up just before he had a chance to do this, but it was too late; the damage had already been done. |
| 97 | |
| 98 | After this incident, she was [[BreakTheCutie completely broken,]] thoroughly convinced it was her fault for pretending to be Beatrice while Kinzo was within earshot. She had a total nervous breakdown, causing her personality to [[LiteralSplitPersonality split quite literally]] (similar to Eva and Eva-Beatrice) and merge with the other two Beatrices. Therefore, meta-Beatrice is in fact all three Beatrices put together. |
| 99 | |
| 100 | This Beatrice has all the memories of the past Beatrices who lived, but she also has a combination of the three Beatrices' personalities, which is why she keeps tripping through the FaceHeelRevolvingDoor. One of these Beatrices (probably the first) was slightly arrogant, the other one (the second) was a bit softer yet naive and unknowing of the world beyond Kuwadorian, and the third was a slight mixture of the two childish and naive, yet jaded by her experience with Kinzo, while also holding an affection for Battler. When you mix these three personalities together, you get meta-Beatrice. |
| 101 | * This theory works quite well, but I'd make one small alteration, the original Beatrice secretly survived and stayed by Kinzo's side without him knowing it. This helps reconcile the Virgilia/Kumasawa as Predecessor Beatrice argument with this one. |
| 102 | * This theory is, in fact, partially correct (especially with regard to the first Beatrice), but as a whole, jossed as of episode 7. |
| 103 | |
| 104 | [[WMG: A Brief Explanation of Time Loops]] |
| 105 | This theory arose as a means of trying to explain the time loop and meta-world without magic. It does however, require some seriously unlikely psychological phenomena. It's based on the time looping concept from Hiroshi Sakurazaka's novel ''All You Need is Kill''. |
| 106 | Basically, only the beginning of the first arc and the conclusion of the last arc really happen. Everything else is Battler contemplating the path that's led him to the point at which he usually dies and considering where that path will lead him. |
| 107 | |
| 108 | First Arc: The murders commence as usual. Before the ninth twilight, Battler tries to imagine what will happen next. His conclusion is that he, George, Maria, and Jessica will be killed in the ninth twilight, so he tries to formulate a plan that will lead to a better end. |
| 109 | |
| 110 | Second Arc: Battler commences his session of thinking and imagines another possible way the last few days events could have played out. (His thinking here is influenced by the conversation about "bad luck" he overhears Genji and Kanon having in Episode 1.) Battler realizes accepting Beatrice rather than denying her will yield different results, but when he considers the consequences, it dawns on him that that course of action will only lead to more death. |
| 111 | |
| 112 | Third Arc: Battler wonders if safeguarding his own safety by hiding would be a better course of action. He also probes his mind for memories of his grandmother's tales about Beatrice and discovers he remembers more about her than he thought. His disdain for the idea of Beatrice being the culprit leads him to assume Eva, being the most blatantly obvious suspect, is the killer. He realizes that if this is so, she'll eventually get to him anyway and moves on to another line of thought. |
| 113 | |
| 114 | Fourth Arc: Battler, remembering the purpose of the family conference and the original positions of the first twilight victims, realizes it is quite likely his grandfather is the culprit. This hasty conclusion is a similar error to his folly regarding Eva in the third arc, and he decides that the very idea is absurd. His thoughts lead him to piece together a theory that Kinzo may already be dead, and thus should not play into his scheming any further. |
| 115 | |
| 116 | Fifth Arc: In his despair at his inability to come up with a method of survival, Battler's thoughts lapse from strategy to fantasy. He prays desperately for a deus ex machina situation to occur and save him from his fate. His hopes manifest in the idea of a "super-detective" that would have the skills to solve the mystery. It finally hits Battler that if Beatrice doesn't exist, one of his family members must be a culprit and he hates the idea, so he changes his thinking. |
| 117 | |
| 118 | Final Arc (Unseen): Battler comes to an ultimate conclusion, solves the mystery, and defeats the culprit. This is the true answer to the first arc. |
| 119 | All meta world segments can be considered metaphorical looks into Battler's mind. |
| 120 | |
| 121 | [[WMG:Rosa was planning on giving Maria a new Sakutaro on Rokkenjima.]] |
| 122 | We know that Ange found something when she went down the stairs while talking with Captain Kawabata. We also know that things clicked into place for her regarding Maria and Beatrice. We also know that in the Golden Land, she summoned the Sakutarou ''plushie'', which was the thing that allowed Maria to accept Sakutaro's existence again. This completely flummoxed Beatrice, who tried to state in red that Sakutaro was a plushie handmade by Rosa, and that there was only-" and then she stopped. Inference would lead us to think that she was trying to say that there was only one in the world. This, she couldn't say because what Ange had found was another Sakutaro plushie. Rosa had packed it to take to Rokkenjima, but dropped it accidentally on the boat ride over there. Captain Kawabata later found it and, although he wasn't sure who had dropped it, planned to give it back to them later. Of course, he couldn't do that, but he held on to the plushie, and after 12 years, of course he wouldn't remember it. After all, he had no one to connect it to. But Ange noticed because she knows what Sakutaro looks like, and on Rokkenjima, 12 years after the murders, she offered it there to Maria's spirit so that Maria's spirit could be at peace. Before she, herself, died. |
| 123 | |
| 124 | [[WMG: Events in each arc correspond (loosely) to the appropriate twilight.]] |
| 125 | Sometimes literally, sometimes metaphorically... |
| 126 | |
| 127 | * At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key. |
| 128 | ** At the first arc's tea party there were only six people (if you don't count Beatrice). |
| 129 | * At the second twilight, the surviving shall tear apart the two who are close. |
| 130 | ** Perhaps referring to Maria and Rosa being torn apart (in more ways than one) at the end of the 2nd arc. |
| 131 | ** Rather, the whole arc revolved around it: First all of the adult COUPLES, then Jessica and Kanon, then George and Shannon, and finally Maria and Rosa. In short, the theme of the whole arc. |
| 132 | * At the third twilight, the surviving shall praise my honorable name on high. |
| 133 | ** First arc with someone finding the gold and escaping, Battler almost gives in to Beatrice due to her 'North Wind and Sun' strategy. |
| 134 | * At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. |
| 135 | ** The illusion of the living Kinzo (the head of the Ushiromiya family) is destroyed, nearly every death involves a head wound. |
| 136 | ** Also, Battler's mental breakdown after finding out about [[spoiler:Asumu not being his mother.]] |
| 137 | * At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. |
| 138 | ** The object that [[spoiler:killed Battler]] was piercing his chest. |
| 139 | ** Not to mention [[spoiler:Beatrice's death, chest = heart, etc.]] |
| 140 | * At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. |
| 141 | ** This one is more on the metaphorical side I think (it might just plain not fit, but it's close enough for me to add), but [[spoiler:some anatomists consider parts of the female reproductive system to be part of the abdomen, which is what most people refer to when they say stomach/belly; All five of the characters confirmed dead had them, and four of those had used them... Eva was even telling George that he still counted as being there up until he killed her, and the second to last blow he dealt her was to her abdomen.]] |
| 142 | * At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. |
| 143 | ** Wounds to the knee are used to prevent a target from escaping, which is one of the themes of the episode. Will is trapped in Bern's fake Fragment, later Lion and Ange are trapped on the theater, no one can escape from Kirie, and it ends on the desperate, hopeless escape from Bern through the Sea of Fragments. And with the reveal of the love-lacking truth, it is no longer posible to escape from reality. |
| 144 | |
| 145 | The following twilights are for games that have either not been translated or have not been released, added here for completeness. |
| 146 | |
| 147 | * At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. |
| 148 | * At the ninth twilight, the Witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive. |
| 149 | * At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold. |
| 150 | |
| 151 | Furthermore, what someone would be given for reaching the golden land sounds like what would happen if the story ends with a happy ending, as many assume/hope it will. The witch being put to sleep sounds like it represents the illusion of the witch being dispelled. |
| 152 | |
| 153 | * This is impressive. It gets a little weak at the sixth twilight, but gains strength towards the end. Considering 07 will probably only do 8 episodes, the 9th and 10th represent the game ending and us solving the mystery, respectively. |
| 154 | |
| 155 | [[WMG: Love and the Seven Stakes of Purgatory]]. |
| 156 | Some old books show the Plan of Dante's Inferno. These books divide the Seven sins into 3 based on Love. |
| 157 | * Misdirected Love: Pride, Envy and Wrath. |
| 158 | * Defficient Love: Sloth |
| 159 | * Excessive Love: Gluttony, Lust and Greed. |
| 160 | Considering reaching Beatrice is understanding Love, this might prove relevant. |
| 161 | |
| 162 | [[WMG: Torture is Witchspeak for "I love you."]] |
| 163 | Among witches, torturing your crush Higurashi/Umineko style is a perfectly acceptable way to court someone, because it's meant to be a fun game and gives you an excuse to spend lots of time with your target and get to know them. Hence the reason for all the LesYay between Bern and Lambda; by witch standards, Higurashi is a classic romance story, and Bern was very touched by all the effort Lambda went through to win her over. For whatever reason, Beato has fallen in love with Battler and is trying to win him over the way any other witch would: by setting up a high stakes game (the gruesome murders just make it that much more exciting). However, torture isn't romantic at all for most humans, so Battler utterly rejects Beatrice at first. Beato realizes this fact over the course of the games and starts flirting with him in a more conventional (by human standards) manner. This is why her playing is so lackluster--she wants the damn game to end because it doesn't serve her purposes any more. However, it's not so easy to stop a courtship ritual once it's started, which gives Bern and Lambda to take it over for their own purposes. |
| 164 | |
| 165 | [[WMG: The golden butterflies are a lit fuse]] |
| 166 | The golden butterflies might actually be the light from a lit fuse, a sparkling kind. If you follow them, it might lead to some trap to injure the follower... In the end of Episode 1, I reckon the survivors saw golden butterflies and Beatrice coming out of the portrait. That scene might be about a fuse set on the portrait, which might give quite an impression when it lights up. |
| 167 | |
| 168 | [[WMG: [[VisualNovel/UminekoWhenTheyCry Umineko]] is to Ryukishi07 what [[Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion Evangelion]] was to Hideaki Anno.]] |
| 169 | Think about it; Evangelion deconstructed the mecha anime upon which it was based, while Umineko clearly deconstructs most of the tropes present in Higurashi. They both include ThisLoserIsYou and YouBastard moments along with serious {{mindscrew}} and meta segments. Also, you really can't deny that some CreatorBreakdown is going on, what with BT's death and all. |
| 170 | * But Umineko's been doing that since it started, and BT didn't die until a month before the fifth game came out. |
| 171 | ** Who is BT? (Doesn't know all the terminology, nicknames, or names behind the series.) |
| 172 | *** BT was Ryukishi07's best friend, and the entire reason the Franchise/WhenTheyCry franchise exists. Ryukishi07 originally wrote VisualNovel/HigurashiWhenTheyCry for him. |
| 173 | |
| 174 | [[WMG:Okonogi is the true culprit.]] |
| 175 | We know from Higurashi that Okonogi is a very clever and influential man. He out-xanatos'd Takano for God's sake! Looking at Umineko, Okonogi has a lot to gain from the deaths of the Ushiromiyas. He could get a payout from the Sumaderas for finishing off their greatest rivals, and the Ushiromiya fortune would fall under his control until Ange was of age. So it wouldn't be a stretch to say he might have paid off one of the Ushiromiyas to betray the rest, or used a trick in the counting of the people on the island to sneak in a few Yamainu to assassinate the key players at the right points to make it appear Beatrice had commited the crime. He then has his forces bomb the mansion, eliminating any remaining survivors. He then sends Amakusa (Yamainu himself) to gain the trust of Ange and eventually snipe her. |
| 176 | * [[color:red:Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Furthermore, Knox 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story.]] |
| 177 | ** [[color:blue:Knox's Rules may not apply, because it has not been stated in Gold that this is a Knox-observant Mystery.]] |
| 178 | ** [[color:red:Umineko is a part of the larger story known as "Franchise/WhenTheyCry", which also incorporates Higurashi. Higurashi is before Umineko, both chronologically and in publication order. Okonogi was introduced in Higurashi.]] [[color:blue:Therefore, Okonogi was introduced in the early part of the story]]. As for the "clues not presented" part... I got nothing. |
| 179 | *** [[color:red:Okonogi did not debut in ''Umineko'' until [=EP4=]!]] [[color:blue:I propose that "the early part of the story" in the context that Knox's 1st is used in refers to [=EP1=], therefore, Okonogi has been ruled out as the culprit by Knox's 1st!]] |
| 180 | *** It's not even clear if Okonogi in Higurashi and in Umineko are the same people. And it would break many Reds. |
| 181 | [[WMG: All the murders were done by a witch, using her witch magic]] |
| 182 | Bear with me a moment... |
| 183 | * [[color:red:Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.]] |
| 184 | ** Prove that Knox's Decalogue is in effect! Say it in Red! |
| 185 | *** That I can't say, but I can guarantee that since [[color:red:Higurashi did not end with all the murders having been done by Oyashiro-sama,]] [[color:blue:there is no way Ryuukishi07 will give us such a lame troll ending for Umineko.]] |
| 186 | *** [[color:blue:Knox's rules were never in effect for Higurashi.]] |
| 187 | *** [[color:red:Ryukishi is also one of the biggest troll ever]]. |
| 188 | *** False dichotomy! [[color:red:Ryukishi07 has already stated that he will not use the same plot device for Umineko,]] [[color:blue:but that does not mean that this is a Mystery!]] [[color:red:Battler has an entire scene dedicated to proving that this may not be the case in Episode 5's ????, before his ascension.]] [[color:blue:Therefore, I propose that this is not Mystery, but merely Anti-Fantasy.]] |
| 189 | *** Yup, pure Fantasy or pure Mystery is boring, and not Umineko-ish. I suspect that magic is just a representation of different values (this doesn't apply to kakera magic, though). Anti-Fantasy all the way, but boo pro-mystery. |
| 190 | *** [[color:red:It was never stated in Red or Gold that Knox's Decalogue is or is not in effect.]] [[color:red:However, for Knox's Decalogue to '''truly''' be in effect, it '''MUST''' be stated in Gold, for the only one who can apply Knox's Decalogue to the game is the Game Master.]] Otherwise, it can simply be a certain interpretation based on Dlanor's involvement and her recitals of the Decalogue in Red. [[color:blue:So long as it is never proclaimed in Gold that "Knox's Decalogue applies to this game as a Mystery", violations of the Decalogue are permissible since the Game Master never confirmed that Knox's Decalogue applied to the game. I propose that Beato never designed her game as a Mystery. Alternatively, if she '''did''' design it as a Mystery, then she either did not know of Knox's Decalogue, or chose not to have it apply to her game.]] |
| 191 | *** [[color:blue:Wrong. While Gold Truth may be usable only by the Game Master, statements of fact about rules and premises may be made in red and counted as accurate, at least {{Metaphorically|True}}.]] (For example, I can say [[color:red:"All red text is true from some perspective"]] or list the victory conditions in red, and it is inarguably true despite being a rule) [[color:blue:Furthermore, simple membership in Knox's Decalogue does not grant a rule special status as far as applying or not applying unless otherwise stated.]] For instance, I can say [[color:red:"There were no Chinamen in Higurashi, therefore it obeys Knox 5"]] despite Higurashi explicitly breaking other Knox rules. |
| 192 | *** [[color:red:Gold is said to sometimes be inferior to Red, but can sometimes be '''superior'''.]] Plus, the whole "absolute validity" thing mentioned on Umineko's Wiki. [[color:blue:But even then, you did not prove that the game was constructed around the Decalogue!]] |
| 193 | *** [[color:blue:Requiring that I prove that the game was deliberately and intentionally constructed around the Decalogue would qualify as a Devil's Proof, as I cannot know the mindset of its creator at the time of its creation. I can, however, say that ]] [[color:red: because anything in red is true,]] [[color:blue:any rule of the Decalogue spoken in red applies to the story-- even if just coincidentally (Knox's 5th can easily apply to stories not meant to follow the Decalogue) and only {{Metaphorically|True}} (Knox's 2nd can only apply to an Anti-Fantasy stance)-- unless it is qualified with "If this story obeys the Decalogue" or the like. This is true even if the story is not a Mystery, as even stories without Mystery elements can have culprits and detectives, or as they are more frequently termed in such stories, killers and heroes.]] |
| 194 | *** The statement that "[[color:red:Anything in red is true]]" can only apply if all involved believe it. [[color:red:As such, while it is a valid viewpoint, and shouldn't simply be shifted aside, it also should not be taken as absolutely true, with any conflicting facts being lies or woven by outside deception,]] [[color:blue:as that borderlines religious belief, and]], as stated in a WMG further up, [[color:red:neither the Red Truth nor the Golden Truth can be used to verify the existence of a supernatural entity]] [[color:blue:beyond affirming that the speaker believes the words they're saying. Thus, the Golden Truth could possibly '''not''' work in that case, while the Red Truth would, since, in order to stand, it requires belief that it is true.]] (Most of the blue statements are due to possible misinterpretations or possible mistaken beliefs. I could be completely wrong, or simply looking at it the wrong way.) |
| 195 | *** [[Series/ReadingRainbow This WMG is becoming]]... '''[[{{Pun}} A READING RAINBOW]]!''' |
| 196 | *** [[color:green:Series/ReadingRainbow was a show that encouraged children to read.]] |
| 197 | *** A-are we sure that it's a good idea to encourage children to read by throwing Umineko at them? "See spot. See spot run. Run spot run. See spot get his goddamn face smashed in with gardening tools and see Spot locked in the shed. See spot get into a metaphorical battle of wits with a witch that may or may not exist. Run spot run." |
| 198 | ** Who cares whether Knox decalogue applies or not? Knox's second states that the ''detective'' cannot use magic. It does not prevent the culprit from being a magical witch. [[color:red:This theory does not contradict the Decalogue.]] |
| 199 | |
| 200 | [[WMG:The statement "The games between Beatrice and Battler Ushiromiya adhere to Knox's Decalogue as Mysteries" must be stated in Gold to truly rule out possibilities that violate the Decalogue.]] |
| 201 | After all, hasn't Red been confirmed as being a subjective truth, which can be used if the statement is literally true from at least one given perspective? [[color:blue:Therefore, the only possible way to truly rule out the possibilities that were countered with the Decalogue is to proclaim it in Gold that the games followed the Decalogue, and thus, recitals of the Decalogue can be transferred from Red Truth to Gold Truth.]] |
| 202 | * Actually, if we read the novels more accurately, we can notice that it is often said in red that "X goes against Knox's Decalogue!". But the other necessary logical step, "These events all follow Knox's Decalogue!" is never stated in red or gold. Therefore, we know that a number of things happen that run counter to Knox's Decalogue, but this might well be meaningless in the context of Rokkenjima of Knox's Decalogue isn't followed. |
| 203 | ** (OP here.) Precisely. How do we know that the Decalogue is '''absolute''' in this game? Until it is verified in Gold, [[color:gold:citing the Decalogue is fair game, and ignoring the citations of the Decalogue is permitted.]] |
| 204 | *** Actually, we know that Knox Decalogue isn't absolute in this game. Dlanor herself said that. |
| 205 | |
| 206 | [[WMG: It's the servants]] |
| 207 | Ok, this isn't as spectacular as many of the other theories on this page, and it's easy enough to poke holes in, but I'm throwing it out there anyway. We all know that Kinzo was obsessed with reviving Beatrice, and would be quite happy to sacrifice his family if he thought it would bring her back, but he's far too busy being dead to be responsible for the murders. This, however, doesn't stop him from leaving instructions for his furniture detailing the ceremony that needs to be carried out. Genji is repeatedly stated as being incredibly loyal to his master, and believing he would kill for him is not a stretch. Shannon and Kannon were both raised in an Uroshimiya-run orphanage and have been brainwashed to the point that they don't even see themselves as human. Getting them to kill and/or die for their master would not be hard. It's unlikely that Kumosawa is in on it, and Gohda almost certainly isn't, but the fact remains that three people working together, all possessing master keys and an intimate knowledge of the island, could explain many of the twilights. They aren't necessarily responsible for every murder, only the more ritualistic ones, with the more crazy/opportunistic family members capitalising on the deaths to eliminate a few loose ends of their own. They choose their victims at random, and if they themselves are selected (notably episode 3) then they offer themselves, confidant that the ritual will continue as their master predicted. Other theories can still apply (i.e. Shannon faking her death in episode 1 so she can continue the ritual - episode 3 apparently shows only five sacrifices are needed, Kannon giving up his identity in episode 2 and perhaps turning on the other servants etc). |
| 208 | |
| 209 | [[WMG: Nanjo is the murderer for the Episode 3]] |
| 210 | The first twilight is conducted by Nanjo. The reason is simple. Only servants, Krauss, Natsuhi, Nanjo, and perhaps Jessica know Kinzo is dead. The servants are dead. Jessica is with her cousins playing cards. And Natsuhi and Krauss are discussing the issue of who is actually Beatrice. He can only be Nanjo. In addition, Nanjo ensures appear just as they leave the meeting all the brothers. I suspect that Jessica helped. That and the mobile Nanjo I explain later. |
| 211 | |
| 212 | The second twilight is also borne out by Nanjo. Nanjo was at the top of the stairs, so quietly he could accompany Rosa and Maria to give him air to the child. Once out of he kill them. |
| 213 | |
| 214 | Nanjo leaves a cigarette in the room of Eva and Hideyoshi to throw suspicion. Kyrie falls into the trap. Nanjo follows Kyrie, Rudolf and Hideyoshi to the mansion and he killed them by treachery. Prepare all the stakes stuff and return to the guesthouse. However, Kyrie has only been hit in the stomach, so he is not dead, just lost consciousness from the shock. This is shown by the fact that Ronove refuses to confirm that all three are dead in red. |
| 215 | |
| 216 | After finding the bodies, George is very upset and decides to go to Shannon for the last time. Nanjo sees out the window and close the latch of the window to hide that fact. Take advantage Natsuhi and Krauss are alone to kill them. Probably he first drug them or something, to not resist and then strangle them. He then goes to the room where the body of Shannon is and kill George. |
| 217 | |
| 218 | In the last part, when they discover the bodies of Natsuhi and Krauss, Eva runs off in search of George. The number of the door should be a message between the murderers. That's why I suspect that Jessica is complicated as it is the other person alive who knows the secret of Kinzo. When Eva and Battler then run out after she that hurts Jessica, Jessica and Nanjo are left. Whoever shoots Nanjo is Kyrie, who regains consciousness and decides to kill the murderer to save Battler. Kyrie then bleeds to death. When Eva discovers Nanjo is dead, Eva concludes that the murderer must be Battler, and so kills him. |
| 219 | |
| 220 | Now the mobile of Nanjo. Nanjo is silent on the death of Krauss for the simple reason that they need to pay an expensive operation to save his granddaughter. However, Krauss has already lost all the money in the family business, and the only money left on the island is gold. Nanjo discovers that fact on the day of the conference. The problem is you can not extract the gold from the island without anyone noticing, so your only option is to kill them all and then take the gold. |
| 221 | |
| 222 | And about Eva-Beatrice... after the massacre happen, Eva feels very remorseful because: 1 - has killed Battler but then she doubt that he is the murderer, and 2 - In his heart he wanted the rest died to win gold medal. So believes the witch inside the murders committed in its place. |
| 223 | |
| 224 | * I'd agree on Nanjo as the murderer, but would make a couple of changes: |
| 225 | |
| 226 | ** Nanjo didn't need to place the cigarette in Eva and Hideyoshi's room. Hideyoshi really was making an alibi for Eva, but it was while she searched for the gold instead of while she murdered Rosa and Maria - we got that part of the story in AnachronicOrder, and Kyrie was correct in deducing Hideyoshi was alone in the room. Eva just couldn't tell about the gold when she came back because she'd look guilty of Rosa's murder since she had no alibi. |
| 227 | |
| 228 | ** Kyrie, Rudolph and Hideyoshi were dead at the time we saw them (eight hours or so is an awful long time to survive bleeding out from a wound that looked fatal). The reason Ronove couldn't proclaim them dead in red was to draw attention away from the fact that Krauss, Natsuhi and George were also not proclaimed dead in red until after Nanjo's murder. Krauss and Natsuhi were killed by strangulation, which isn't really something that could kill them later to fit the red text if they weren't already dead. George was the one who killed Nanjo, then died of his wounds. He brought Jessica back with him to the parlour before dying. Jessica died there too from something that Nanjo had done to her (possibly even just giving her an [[ChekhovsGun asthma inhaler]] with nothing in it while she's having trouble breathing). When Battler accuses Eva of being the murderer, they're standing in the parlour, and the reason he's suddenly convinced it was her is that Jessica is lying there dead, with the only mark on her being where Eva shot and blinded her earlier. Eva, who's aware that for almost every murder she has no alibi, has been starting to doubt her sanity. Believing herself to have killed Jessica, and knowing that everyone else on the island is dead, she agrees when Battler says she must be the murderer, and kills him, a victim of temporary insanity. |
| 229 | |
| 230 | ** Nanjo's motive is that he's being paid by the Sumaderas. If all the Ushiromiyas die, Ange becomes the sole inheritor of the estate, the Sumaderas take custody of her, and the Ushiromiya fortune is theirs. Bernkastel makes note that Ange is always sick on the 3rd and never accompanies the family. She tries to justify this as being before the cut-off of Beatrice's game board, but the witches have been very cagey on whether everything is the same at the start of the games or not - the only other thing said for definite to always be the same is Kinzo's death. The real reason for this is that the Sumaderas arranged that Ange be sick. The number on the door of the parlour is the account number for the bank that had money for Nanjo's son. George somehow discovered what was going on, and painted the number there after he was injured. Regaining consciousness to discover Nanjo leading a blinded Jessica somewhere alone, he set out to save her. |
| 231 | |
| 232 | [[WMG: Kanon and Shannon are murderers in the Episode 1]] |
| 233 | The first twilight is conducted by Shannon. She shots the 5 ones, but her gun explodes and destroy her face. Then Kanon destroy the faces of the other to hide this fact. The original plan was likely to kill all adults, but because Natsuhi locked her bedroom and Eva and Hideyoshi were gone... they make the crime look like the sacrifices to revive Beatrice. |
| 234 | |
| 235 | The second twilight is conducted by Kanon. He cut the chain, kills Hideyoshi and Eva while Genji or Nanjo draw the circle. Then the act like they didn't know Kinzo is dead. |
| 236 | |
| 237 | The forth and fifth twilight were Kanon faking his dead. He just have to use red paint into his chest. Then Nanjo "certifies" his death. The Kinzo's corpse probably was planted before killing Eva and Hideyoshi. The reason that Kanon fakes his death is to been away from Natsuhi survillance and kill her by surprise. |
| 238 | |
| 239 | The sixth, seventh and eighth twilight were realized by Kanon. He kills Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa. He is the "Beatrice" that Maria told the others about. |
| 240 | |
| 241 | Regarding Natsuhi's death, she was killed by Kanon. He needs her to be separated from the group to do this. Probably in order to avoid Jessica being implicated. He separates her with the letter and shots her. |
| 242 | * [[color:red: It's forbidden for a servant to be the culprit.]] |
| 243 | ** 1. Yasu isn't a servant. S/he is the Head of Ushiromiya family. 2. There's nothing indicating that the gameboards comply to Van Dine rules. And they definitely don't. 3. Indeed, Shannon and Kanon (in fact Yasu) along with Genji are the culprits in EP1. |
| 244 | |
| 245 | |
| 246 | [[WMG: Kinzo is a child molester]] |
| 247 | We know that Kinzo have a girl being locked in Kuwadorian. After she is dead, he tries to ressurect her. This "resurrect" means to seek for other childrens that look like Beatrice, make dress like her and the rape their. This is probably what might happen to Kanon and Shannon. We have the following clues: |
| 248 | |
| 249 | * Erika proposes in Episode 5 that Natsuhi dressed up like Beatrice to seduce Kinzo. |
| 250 | * Kinzo donates a lot of money to an orphanage. |
| 251 | * He adopted a lot of this orphans as servants. Too suspicious for someone who locked up a girl all her life. |
| 252 | * In Episode 2 it seems that Kanon is the "Beatrice" that repairs Maria's candy. |
| 253 | * Kanon obsession of being "just furniture". Kinzo made something really gross to him. |
| 254 | |
| 255 | Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa were the ones that take care of this child in Kuwadorian and were "her parents", because for Kinzo, Beatrices is her lover, not her daugther. Because Beatrice died and also because of the attitude of Kinzo, they look after for revenge. In fact, Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo are the demons Ronove, Virgilia and Gaap who helped Beatrice. |
| 256 | |
| 257 | However, Kinzo died before Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa could have a revenge. So they enforce their revenge on Kinzo's children, who probably knew about his secret. In fact in Episode 1 it said something like "Everyone knew the secret |
| 258 | Kinzo's hobby". This could be his black magic hobby or... the things he done to the servants. |
| 259 | |
| 260 | About Beatrice nature, she is the clamor asking for justice of all the orphans raped and abused by Kinzo with the consent of his children. That's why in Episode 5, when Battler reach the truth, he supports Beatrice. |
| 261 | * Kanon and Shannon look nothing like any Beatrice. [[color:red:Due to Battler's sin many humans on Rokkenjima die.]]Thus, whatever the culprit's motives are they are centered around Battler not Kinzo. Also, if Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa knew about this, why didn't they tell the police? |
| 262 | |
| 263 | [[WMG: It is possible for information given in red to be objectively false.]] |
| 264 | Because any given scene might just be a hallucination, we have no way of knowing that anything said was actually ever spoken. Do we have any way of knowing for sure that red text can't be hallucinated? For that matter, [[Webcomic/GirlGenius maybe this is all just some absinthe-fueled ]][[strike:[[Webcomic/GirlGenius scientific romance]]]] fantastic mystery nightmare [[AllJustADream Battler's having]] |
| 265 | * No, it is not allowed for Battler's perspective to be hallucinated, falsified, misinterpreted, or otherwise wrong. As the Detective, the narrative is bound to make him reliable so that the player can construct the mystery. Therefore, Battler's perspective in the Meta-World is 100% reliable. |
| 266 | ** Except in [=EP5=]. when he's not the detective but Erika. |
| 267 | *** Well, yes, on the Gameboard, atleast. Either way, the Meta-World can be taken at face value, due to it's role as a narrative device. |
| 268 | |
| 269 | [[WMG: Erika can't detect her way out of a paper bag]] |
| 270 | She's an actress, hired to put the screws on Natsuhi. Kyrie feeds her her lines. |
| 271 | |
| 272 | Seriously, people like that don't exist in real life. |
| 273 | * [[Manga/SayonaraZetsubouSensei Yes. How could a Great Detective, something I've only seen in fiction, possibly exist? She must be an actress!]] |
| 274 | |
| 275 | [[WMG: [[Literature/{{Illuminatus}} There is no enemy anywhere]]]] |
| 276 | Beatrice scapegoats herself to spare the family. Lambda is Beatrice's patron, and therefore complicit in her secret and terrible innocence. Bern talks a good game, but only seems to take actions that force Batter into a deeper understanding of himself. Dlanor is an unshakable pillar of moral character in a crooked world. |
| 277 | |
| 278 | Hang on. We've no villains left; just a cast of actors in the make-Battler-a-better-person psychodrama. |
| 279 | |
| 280 | [[WMG: Any letter claiming to be from Beatrice, that isn't checked against Maria's diary is a forgery.]] |
| 281 | Maria claims she meets Beatrice everytime she comes to Rokkenjima. Furthermore, her diary contains a bit of Beatrice's handwriting. The message bottles and money letters contain the same hand writing, and thus it is reasonable to assume they were written by the person Maria calls Beatrice. On the other hand Maria initially mistakes EVA for Beato, meaning its likely that anyone could claim to be Beatrice and she'd believe them (unless they acted too differntly from Beato) and thus believe that anything they gave her was from Beatrice. To summerize, the money letters and message bottles were written by the person Maria meets every year, and everything else is written by another person or persons. |
| 282 | |
| 283 | [[WMG: EVA is and always has been the BigBad]] |
| 284 | The mirror that prevented Beato from regaining her powers was created to seal the various evil spirits on Rokkenjima. These spirits eventually fused into one being, the black witch/EVA. However, at that point she was only able to influence people, in order to be able to directly interact with the world she needed people to commit murder on Rokkenjima and thus manipulated the killer(s) into killing the victims. |
| 285 | * ...Doesn't that go against the "No magic is responsible for the murders" thing? Also, what does this make Lambda and Bern? |
| 286 | ** It does go against "No magic is responsible for the murders", and is thus Pro-Fantasy. However, it is not inheriently Anti-Mystery, since it only attributes the killer(s) motive to magic, the actual crimes had to be carried out via mundane means. |
| 287 | ** As for Lambda and Bern, they are simply Voyagers. Lambda's position is Anti-EVA, as long as the games remain tied EVA will be unable to directly interact with the world. This is most strongly supported by episode 3 where any conclusive result would of lead to EVA's victory If Battler proves the culprit is human, then she becomes able to interact with world due to the above. If he accepts that the culprit is Beatrice, she becomes able to interact with the world since at that point she is Beatrice. Bern's position is Pro-EVA, if someone proves the culprit is human then EVA becomes able to interact with the world. |
| 288 | |
| 289 | [[WMG: Maria is the mastermind, but she has an accomplice.]] |
| 290 | * Motive: The FreudianExcuse taken to a logical extreme; Everyone knows of Rosa's abuse of Maria, but is either doing nothing about it or actively covering it up. And Maria found out about the cover-up. Maria, not exactly of sound mind, decides to exterminate the family that has betrayed her. |
| 291 | * Opportunity: Well, duh. |
| 292 | * Means: Ah, that's the rub. Maria lacks the size or strength to do it all herself, but someone has become TheAtoner in regards to Maria and is actively helping her, and that person is Eva. Her maternal instincts (coupled with her disgust with her relatives) convinces her to join Maria's side... sort of. Plus, Maria knows about black magic almost as much as Kinzo. |
| 293 | * [=EP1=]: Eva is the one who put the bodies in the storehouse. Maria did all the rest. Eva gets second thoughts about it all so Maria disposes of the only one who could expose her. Maria is the lone survivor. |
| 294 | * [=EP2=]: Eva bails on the plan from the onset, so Maria dispatches her as a part of the first twilight. Maria is the lone survivor, killing Rosa last when Maria's inner AgentScully causes her to realize her happy paradise with mama is only a fantasy. |
| 295 | * [=EP3=]: Everything goes according to plan. Maria's death is faked. Compared to the other murders, Maria's is remarkably tame. Eva leaves the island alone while Maria stays behind alone. |
| 296 | * [=EP4=]: Same as [=EP2=], except now Maria has access to a firearm and decides she doesn't need help afterall. Maria is the lone survivor. |
| 297 | |
| 298 | * Then again, it could be a different person playing the role of Maria's accomplice in each episode. |
| 299 | |
| 300 | * Maria is not Beatrice's piece. Beatrice is Maria's piece. Hence Maria's total reversal of luck between the first four games and the last two. |
| 301 | |
| 302 | ** It is confirmed in Red that Maria's deaths are never faked, and that she is not a murderer. |
| 303 | |
| 304 | [[WMG: Beatrice's Game does NOT follow the rules of Knox.]] |
| 305 | After all, it would be ENTIRELY within Beatrice's character to have the 'detective' be the criminal, considering that she is obsessed with revealing people's sins. In addition, she has ALREADY violated one of the rules, the one on secret passages. There was no way for Battler to discover the passage to Beatrice's Mansion, since the way was locked. Most of theories with Shannon/Kanon rely on violating the rule about doubles. Even the 'demon' trick violates that, if barely. |
| 306 | * It's confirmed that this isn't a Knox game, but [[color:red:Battler-kun is not the culprit]] either way. |
| 307 | ** How do we know that Virgilia was talking about [[http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090610211718/umineko/images/e/ec/Battler.jpg this guy]]? Was it stated in Gold that she meant him? For all we know, [[color:blue:she could have been talking about the other Battler, whom Natsuhi supposedly killed in her backstory.]] |
| 308 | * Excellent. This, however, leaves open 'mistaken identity' and such...Now, to go through a list of family members and verify THEY are not the culprit! |
| 309 | |
| 310 | [[WMG: If this is a mystery, the servants MUST be the killer.]] |
| 311 | Each of the servants perfectly lines up with one of the demons. The character sheets explain which. Thus, it seems reasonable that if this is a mystery, they MUST be the servants in disguise, otherwise there is no way to solve it. Admitedly, it is BARELY possible that Gaap is either Nanjo, or possibly Hideyoshi, since those are the two least-developed characters. |
| 312 | * Definitely Nanjo. Hideyoshi can't "make evidence disappear" like Nanjo and Gaap can. This is, of course, assuming that the demons aren't just total allegories for non-living forces, such as guns, anyway. |
| 313 | |
| 314 | [[WMG: Umineko X is the arc after the Good End.]] |
| 315 | After all players reconcile, Beatrice gets revived, and Battler solves the mystery and finds the gold, he cracks open one of the ingots to find that Kinzo hid his stash in them. The entire family gets really baked, and he offers Beatrice a hit. While everyone's stoned out of their gourds, someone mentions a fun game idea they had and Beato agrees that it might be interesting; Bern mentions that she knew someone who might want to tag along... |
| 316 | * To expand on this: Using several [=WMGs=] above, there are ten arcs, including ''Episode X''. In the ninth arc, Beatrice is revived in a way that merges the gameboard with the Meta-World, meeting the requirement that "At the ninth twilight, the witch will be revived and none will be left alive". Bernkastel reveals that she knew this would happen, using the magic of miracles to make sure that Beatrice would survive. She then explains that a)she wanted a good story, b)she was calling the audience out, or c)she was prodding Battler into action so that he'd solve the riddle. They then throw a massive celebration and Battler drops one of the ingots, cracking it open. |
| 317 | |
| 318 | [[WMG: Maria suffers from Disorganized Schizophrenia.]] |
| 319 | Symptoms (from college psychology textbook): |
| 320 | * Occurs at earlier age then other types |
| 321 | * extreme social withdrawal |
| 322 | * hallucinations |
| 323 | * delusions |
| 324 | * silliness |
| 325 | * inappropriate laughter |
| 326 | * grimaces |
| 327 | * grotesque mannerisms |
| 328 | * Flat or inappropriate affect |
| 329 | |
| 330 | The only ones that you can argue with are delusions, hallucinations, and silliness, and you can make a strong case for them as well. This would be even more interesting if you are pro-fantasy, as it would make her a creator witch as well. |
| 331 | |
| 332 | [[WMG: The are two culprits in the story.]] |
| 333 | There's the true mastermind, the one behind at least the killings of at least [=EP1=]. And there's also [[VisualNovel/HigurashiWhenTheyCry The Shion]] of the story, someone else who also go goes on a killing spree because of some form of trigger. Therefore, using every game as a means to determine the original culprit is foolish. |
| 334 | |
| 335 | I suspect [=EP3=] is one of the red herrings, as it doesn't follow the epitaph past the first twilight, and Maria's death could be the trigger for somebody else's RoaringRampageOfRevenge. Though [[VisualNovel/HigurashiWhenTheyCry The Shion]] is not necessarily Eva. |
| 336 | |
| 337 | [[WMG: The previous game between Bernkastel and Lambdadelta was similar to, but distinct from the events of VisualNovel/HigurashiWhenTheyCry.]] |
| 338 | Yukiwatashi-hen reveals that Hanyuu looped the live's of multiple Rika, and Bernkastel's profile note's that she is also called "the witch who knows that miracles don't occur", yet she was somehow able to beat Lamdadelta. [[color:blue: Bern was killed by Rule X far more often then Rika was, because of this she decided that the best way to survive was to kill her friends (and when that failed her friends and random persons) before they could kill her. In her final arc the people she killed included Takano thus [[PyrrhicVictory winning the game]] without a miracle.]] |
| 339 | |
| 340 | [[WMG: Some Red Truth is not the literal truth, but are instead metaphors.]] |
| 341 | Let's play with this and return to the second twilight of [=EP2=]. When "[[color:red:When Jessica's corpse was discovered]]" was said, it could be meant the corpse made by Jessica was found there, not her actual body. Plus only Kanon is explictly stated to have been killed in Jessica's room in red, the same is not said about Jessica. Nor it is ever said two people died in her room in red. Taking all this into account, theoretically, the dead body found in her room could have been Kanon's, not Jessica's. Obviously, this thinking implies Jessica is Beatrice. |
| 342 | And there are other ways to rethink the situations. |
| 343 | |
| 344 | [[WMG: Battler's endless nine magic cancel is due to the charm Maria gave him. ]] |
| 345 | Maria said the scorpion had the power to block magic. If the charm works, then that overlapping with or magnifying Battler's natural AntiMagic would result in this. |
| 346 | * This might make a fun ChekhovsBoomerang. * Battler gives someone the scorpion* "Ha! No such feeble charm can block this! We will kill [indistinct], and then we will kill Battler! * casts spell* What the...?" |
| 347 | |
| 348 | [[WMG: The Ushiromiya family are literal bastards.]] |
| 349 | This is based on the fact that Kinzo has six toes. Given that polydactyly is actually a ''dominant'' genetic trait (odd but true), the chances that none of his four children would have it are one in sixteen at best (if he's homozygous polydactyl [two genes for it], the odds drop to about zero). |
| 350 | * The gene gives a probability that a digit will split and develop as two during gestation, but doesn't guarantee it. Further, there are surgery treatments available for generations after Kinzo. It's a strictly cosmetic feature, and correcting it in infancy, as is usually done these days, will remove all traces in later life. |
| 351 | |
| 352 | [[WMG: Virgilia is Pendragon-sama]] |
| 353 | Virgilia is noted to be on good terms with many beings of different kinds and the Siestas have worked with the EVA, Goldsmith, the Eiserne Jungfrau, Cupid, and of course Beato. |
| 354 | ** Additionally, Pendragon-sama is implied to be Myth/KingArthur. What [[VisualNovel/FateStayNight other series]] do we know that has a lot of magic and a female King Arthur...? |
| 355 | |
| 356 | [[WMG: The first four games didn't follow Knox.]] |
| 357 | [[color:red: The opening for ''Turn of the Golden Witch'' claims it is not a mystery. And information from the first four games is treated as valid during ''End of the Golden Witch'' despite violating Knox's 2nd.]] |
| 358 | |
| 359 | [[WMG: Battler was part of the conspiricy to hide Kinzo's death in every arc except the first one.]] |
| 360 | [[color:blue: It is possible that the first four games didn't follow Knox,]] and [[color:red:Battler isn't the detective in ''End of the Golden Witch''.]] |
| 361 | * First statement demoted to Blue Truth. [[color:blue:I propose that the statements that "this is not a Mystery" and "No Knox, no Dine, no Fair" were an attempt by Ryukishi to MindScrew us. A recent statement he made regarding the Golden Truth]] [[note]](see the [=WMG=] at the bottom of [[WMG/UminekoWhenTheyCryUntranslated this page]] for details)[[/note]] [[color:blue:suggests that [[MindScrew Mind Screws]] are to be expected of him.]] |
| 362 | |
| 363 | [[WMG: Piece!Battler was never the detective. Therefore, it is possible that he is the culprit for the first four games.]] |
| 364 | Even though it's been confirmed that meta!Battler was the detective for the first four games via Dlanor, piece!Battler has no such barrier to prevent being the culprit. On the gameboard, he tries no harder than anyone else to find the criminal and solve the mysteries. [[color:blue:I propose that meta!Battler is the detective, which allows the possibility of piece!Battler to be the murderer.]] As for the red truth that "[[color:red:Battler-kun is not the culprit,]]" this can be explained is multiple ways - either that Virgilia was referring to the baby from 19 years ago, or, again, that this only applies to meta!Battler and not piece!Battler. |
| 365 | * [[color:red:Meta!Battler did not exist during most to all of the duration of the first game.]] [[color:blue:Therefore, at least during that game's duration, it is impossible for meta!Battler to be the detective.]] |
| 366 | ** [[color:blue:Meta!Battler is Episode-One-1-Piece!Battler.]] |
| 367 | |
| 368 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: Shannon and Kanon were the murderers in Episode 1.]]]] |
| 369 | As Kyrie pointed out, it's easiest to see your opponent's moves in the endgame when there simply aren't many possible moves left. So, working from the end: |
| 370 | |
| 371 | When Natsuhi was killed, Battler, George, Jessica and Maria were locked in the parlour. Red text confirms Eva, Hideyoshi, Kinzo, Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji as dead at the time, leaving only Kanon and the people of the first twilight as suspects. |
| 372 | |
| 373 | Red text for Kanon tells us he was either killed by a trap or faked his death since [[color:red: "no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!"]] and [[color:red: "Kanon did not commit suicide."]]. Of the people killed at the first twilight, we only know that [[color:red: "Regarding unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!"]], which doesn't allow fake corpses, but [[color:blue: ''does'' allow someone to ''pretend'' to be a corpse. Shannon was hidden right in the back of the shed, and Kanon was the one who controlled the time at which the shed was discovered. By telling about it in front of the kids after a morning wondering where everyone was, and then having everyone run off, the kids were made suspicious enough that they'd follow before anyone could properly examine all the bodies. Since Shannon was right in the back, she most likely didn't get more than a cursory glance before the kids arrived and everyone became more preoccupied with preventing them seeing and closing up the place than making sure they were all dead.]] |
| 374 | |
| 375 | In short, if Kanon and Shannon were responsible, they faked their deaths in such a way as to draw suspicion away from them, in line with clues we were given to satisfy Knox's 8th, and with their faked deaths, everything else falls into place. |
| 376 | |
| 377 | With Shannon's faked death, the second twilight locked room is easily solved with Shannon locking the door from the inside and hiding in a closet. Kinzo was most likely placed in the furnace at Natsuhi's orders, and Maria was most likely responsible for the magic circle of paranoia. The only remaining question is why Nanjo would say Kanon was dead. |
| 378 | |
| 379 | This also means that at the time the first game ended, Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, Shannon, and Kanon were alive - the six people at the first tea party. |
| 380 | * Not just dead, but that the stake had gone in and pierced his lungs. He was pretty darn specific about it. [[color:blue:This theory basically requires him to have been in on whatever Kashnon were doing, at least in the beginning.]] He does die in the later twilights for the first, second, and third games, if we assume that he was also in on it in the second game and was hiding or something when he was initially proclaimed dead. The fourth one is a little bit more ambiguous. |
| 381 | |
| 382 | [[WMG:[[color:blue:Even if someone is declared to be the detective in red, it is possible that he or she is acting under Knox's 9th rather then Knox's 7th]]]] |
| 383 | [[color:red:When Battler accused Knox's 3rd of allowing the detective to be lazy, Dlanor clearified that it didn't literally rule out the existence of secret passages, but that it instead ruled out the existance of secret passages the detective couldn't find. Therefore, it is possible to misinterpet the decalogue if one interpets it literaly. Furthermore, according to the original Knox's decalogue, Knox's 7th only applies if the author personally vouches for the detective.]] Therefore, [[color:blue: regardless of what color someone else may use to proclaim X is the detective, X is only bound by Knox's 7th if the author (i.e. "Maria Ushiromiya"/Beatrice or Featherine depending on the arc) or the Game Master (by virtue of the premise that that Game Master creates the story) claims that X is the detctive.]] |
| 384 | |
| 385 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:Erika was right about Natsuhi sleeping with Kinzo.]]]] |
| 386 | [[color:red:According, to Battler's Blue Truth the name "Kinzo" refers to the head of the family.]] [[color:blue:Since the original Kinzo died before Battler solved the ephitat that would make Krauss the new head and thus the new Kinzo.]][[color:red: And of course there isn't anything shameful about Natsuhi sleeping with her husband.]] |
| 387 | |
| 388 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:We have been misled about Kinzo's Time of Death, but it happened more recently then we thought.]]]] |
| 389 | As shown above the scence where Kinzo is pronounced dead is unreliable. Furthermore, [[color:red:as far as we know Natsuhi is planning on saying Kinzo has gone missing once Krauss recovers from his financial troubles, ]] [[color:blue: having Kinzo's corpse some place it can be found can only hurt Natsuhi's chances of success.]] [[color:red: If Kinzo died over a year ago Natsuhi and the others would have had plently of time to dispose of his corpse. His corpse is found in various episodes.]] Thus, [[color:blue: Kinzo died shortly before the start of the game, in fact his death could very well mark the start of the game.]] |
| 390 | |
| 391 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:Erika wasn't the detective during the fifth game]]]] |
| 392 | [[color:red: Furudo Erika had no influence on any of Beato's games before now.]] From this we can conclude that [[color:blue:Erika was not the detective during the first four games.]] Furthermore, [[color:red: Battler was required to provide human proof that he wasn't the detective during the fifth game.]] [[color:blue: Therefore, in order to prove that Erika was in fact the detective during the fifth, human proof must be provided. In other words the Red Truths claiming she is the detective are inadmissible.]][[color:red: Note that Knox's Rules never say there has to be a detective.]] |
| 393 | * One small problem. "''[[color:red:Detective's authority. ......The detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. Stand back, Battler Ushiromiya. This is an official right of this game, which the human side has acknowledged.]]''" If Erika was not the detective, she could not have used that to remove Battler from her path. |
| 394 | ** [[color:red:Knox's 2nd: It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.]][[color:blue:The very fact that she used the red to move Battler proves she isn't the detective.]] |
| 395 | *** Well, technically, Erika doesn't use the red; Bernkastel uses it for her. |
| 396 | *** (1st respondent here.) [[Film/WillyWonkaAndTheChocolateFactory Wrong, sir, wrong!]] When Battler refuses to let Erika enter the cousins' room, she says that Red and Battler gets thrown out of her way. As the 2nd respondent was kind enough to remind me, Knox's 2nd forbids such things. But, she wasn't using the Red for her deductions or to help solve the crime, she was using it to remind Battler of her right as the "detective" but I still agree that Knox's 2nd kills such a move. |
| 397 | ** [[color:red:Erika is simply stating that the detective has the right to inspect all crime scenes. ]][[color:blue:She is ''not'' actually asserting that the is the detective.]] |
| 398 | *** Read the TIPS again. It says that Erika has no power to use the Red, due to being a human, but she has the benefit of the Red. Bernkastel is the one using the Red, but the words are coming from Erika's mouth. Still, nothing guarantees that Knox's rules actually apply. |
| 399 | *** (1st respondent here.) Watch [=EP5=] again. When Erika tries to enter the cousins' room to inspect the scene, Battler stands in her way. Then Erika recites the Red Truth I originally posted, and Battler is lifted up (by nothing at all, I might add) and flung out of her way. Also, funnily enough, no one questions the fact that Battler was just thrown aside seemingly by words. |
| 400 | *** Again, as stated, the words come from Erika's mouth, but it is Bernkastel that makes it Red Truth, according to the TIPS. Citing the scene I'm explaining doesn't mean anything. As for no one questioning anything, this is because they're pieces on a board, and thus are subject to the will of the Game Master. |
| 401 | *** (1st respondent here.) I knew that bit about the Game Master's will, I just figured said Game Master (Lambda) should have paid attention to the fact that such a thing would seriously wow some humans IRL. |
| 402 | *** I honestly don't think she cares. She and Bern are, in Virgilia's words, "scribbling on the gameboard." |
| 403 | |
| 404 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: Erika is Bernkastel's literal daughter.]]]] |
| 405 | [[color:red: The similarities in their appearances is uncanny, and Bern even calls Erika her daughter at one point.]] |
| 406 | * Who is the father, then? |
| 407 | ** [[color:blue: Keiichi would be the obvious choice, but I'm going to [[HomosexualReproduction go]] [[CrackPairing with]] [[VisualNovel/HigurashiWhenTheyCry Chie Rumiko]]]] |
| 408 | ** [[LesYay Lambdadelta.]] [[AWizardDidIt They are witches,]] [[HomosexualReproduction therefore it is entirely possible]] and [[ArtisticLicenseBiology regular rules of biology need not apply.]] |
| 409 | *** So, how exactly are a cat and a cake able to give birth to a drown victim? |
| 410 | |
| 411 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:Battler was still the detective in episode 5]]]] |
| 412 | [[color:red:When Dlanor challenges Battler's claim that he isn't the detective, he points out that he claimed to see Kinzo, produced a corpse, and said]] [[color:gold:I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse!!]] [[color:blue:However this doesn't prove anything at all because Battler's Blue Truth "My theory is that Kinzo's name is passed on as the title of the Ushiromiya family head!",]] [[color:red:was never countered. Furthermore, even if we assume that the corpse he showed didn't belong to someone else,]] [[color:blue:he never established when Kinzo died with human proof.]] Furthermore, [[color:blue: even if Kinzo was dead when Battler claimed to see him it's possible that Battler mistook Kinzo's corpse for a living Kinzo.]] |
| 413 | * You can't use the red to propose speculation. Furthermore, none of that implies in any way that Battler is the detective. It still doesn't change that Piece!Battler had a "conversation" with "Kinzo", invalidating his point of view. |
| 414 | ** [[color:blue: In order for that conversation to invalidate Piece!Battler's view point, it must be established that Kinzo was dead by that point in time using human proof!]] |
| 415 | *** Not at all. It's already been supported in Red and Gold Truth. We have an absolute guarantee that Kinzo is dead before the game even started. |
| 416 | *** [[color:red: Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.]] |
| 417 | *** [[color:red:Dlanor made the same objection to the red truth. For whatever reason, the gold truth overrode it.]] |
| 418 | *** [[color:red: True. However, that Gold Truth only proved that Kinzo was dead.]][[color:blue: Unless his time of death is also proven to be prior to the time Battler claims to have had a conversation with him , it is possible that they did have that conversation and thus Battler's status as the detective was never actually disproven. Again, human proof or Gold Truth must be used to establish this.]] |
| 419 | |
| 420 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:The game didn't follow Knox.]]]] |
| 421 | [[color:red:It was never stated in]] [[strike:red]] [[color:red:Gold that it does]], since it would be a contradiction for the wicth side. [[color:red:In the 5th game, most of time the rules are invoked just the rules itself are stated in red, not the conclusion.]] [[color:blue:This don't mean nothing, since it would oly tell us about the rule, not it connection to the game.]] Battler's objective was never to prove the games are a mystery(trherefore following Knox), but just prove it was not a fantasy(that is it, there is no magic in it). All these use of the rules are just Erika and Bern using InsaneTrollLogic to confuse him. |
| 422 | ** Let me come with an alternative (which might be conflicting with other information, has only read ep 1-4 and if it doesn't work just ignore me). |
| 423 | The Knox rules is only required with the mystery side, i.e. Battlers side. In the games he is extremely limited in his theories since he has to come up with suggestions that work without magic. The magic side isn't limited in the same way since they pretty much only have to say ''this is how I did it with with magic''. So to sum it up Battlers is trying to make the game a mystery (which is what Knox rules is about) but Beatrice is trying to prove that it is a fantasy (which Knox isn't about) and so Battler (and the readers) who tries to prove the mystery side is restrained by Knox while Beatrice isn't. |
| 424 | |
| 425 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: It is possible to reconcile the fantasy scences with the idea the culprit must be a human using mundane means.]]]] |
| 426 | [[color:blue: Summoned furniture cannot do anything that would result in something that would have been impossible had they not been summoned. This includes both physical and psychological impossibilites. For example, Jessica and Kanon really did die in the way shown in episode 2, but Culprit X was in a position where he/she could and would have murdered them. Furthermore, in every case Culprit X knowingly summoned the furniture.]] |
| 427 | * In English, please. I don't see where the WMG part is, since it was pretty obviously established that the magic scenes are metaphorical. |
| 428 | ** Basicly what I'm saying is that the magic scenes happen more or less as shown, but that magic requires the user to be willingly and able to perform mundane actions that would lead to the same result. For example, in order to use magic to kill Kanon one must be willing and able to kill Kanon without magic. This allows us to accept the fantasy scenes at (close to) face value while still allowing us to find a human culprit. Thereby, allowing us to have the best of both the Anti-Fantasy and Anti-Mystery views. |
| 429 | *** This doesn't really work. Such as, well, almost all of Episode 4. |
| 430 | *** I'm not saying everything shown in a fantasy scence has to be achievable by mundane means, just that the end result has to be. For example, in order for the George vs Gaap Battle, and the Jessica versus Ronove Battles to happen. The culprit must have some mundane way to achieve the following, 1) having George appear in the arbor with a gunshot-like wound to the head, 2) have Jessica make the call to Battler, and 3) have Jessica appear in her room with her head half destroyed. There doesn't have to be, for example, a mundane way to make George and Jessica kill eachother. Also, note that this theory actually makes the culprit weaker then a pure Anti-Fantasy perspective as he/she/they could mistakenly target someone who has one of Maria's charms using magic. Or are you saying that there is something that definitly happened (i.e. either confirmed in red or witnessed by piece!Battler) that can't be explained via mundane means. |
| 431 | *** Most of the magic scenes are so dissociated from the reality of events that they literally can't be "more or less" proper counterparts for the mundane events, and indeed some scenes might be entirely falsified with no mundane counterpart. For instance, how about Shannon's resurrection in Episode 3? |
| 432 | *** If she was the murderer, then presumably, she faked her own death. Battler didn't see the corpses himself - the aunts and uncles did. That scene could be George finding out that she's still alive, then both of them promptly being killed by someone else. |
| 433 | *** And how about the "loser flags" scene in Episode Four? And Shannon and Kanon having a Spirit Particle Jamming fight with the Siestas? |
| 434 | *** Regarding the "loser flags" scene, Krauss beat the crap out of someone who his trying to kill him and the others. Unfortunatly, that person wasn't the only culprit. |
| 435 | |
| 436 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: The scene where Natsuhi and Beato drink tea together was genuine.]]]] |
| 437 | [[color:red:In Episode 2 there were no more then 17 people on the island, and Beato gave the keyto the chapal to Maria. However, Beato claims she isn't one of the seventeen on the island.]] [[color:blue:Therefore, Beato is not counted as a person. The statement,]] [[color:red: "After all, Natsuhi is drinking tea all by herself right there."]][[color:blue:simply means she wasn't drinking tea with another person, it does not rule out the possibility she was drinking tea with Beato, who is not a person.]] |
| 438 | * It hasn't been stated in red that Beatrice was the one who gave the key to Maria, so this doesn't work. Even if such a statement had been made, "Beatrice" refers to the human culprit. Ontop of that, while Beatrice may not be a human, she is still a "someone". |
| 439 | ** Regarding the key, Beato says, [[color:red:"The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria."]] |
| 440 | *** Does "I" refer to Beatrice herself, or the human culprit she represents? Does "I gave" even indicate an objective position of "Beato gave Maria the letter" or does it simply indicate the letter that, in a Fantasy Scene, came from "Beatrice?" Either way, the thesis of this WMG doesn't really work out. |
| 441 | *** The point I was trying to establish is that Beato claimed she was on the island, yet claims she isn't one of the seventeen and thus would have left room for herself in the count if she counted as a person. Your're later question is basicly invoking Knox's 2nd against the Red Truth about the key. In which case, [[color:red: Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.]] [[color:blue: If you would claim that Natsuhi was drinking tea alone you must present human evidence to support that claim.]] |
| 442 | *** [[color:blue: No one gives a shit about Knox's rules.]] |
| 443 | *** [[color:red:Knox's Decalogue, while not absolute, is a valid standpoint.]] |
| 444 | *** [[color:red: Only if we have reason to believe the Decalogue actually applies. None of the legitimate Gamemasters had acknowledged it as anything worthwhile, and our only reason to believe it has any worth is because of Erika's and Dlanor's insistence.]] |
| 445 | *** [[color:red: Beato noted that Knox forbid secert passage, and claimed that she followed that rule. Also, it is implied that Battler used Knox to solve Beato's game. Therefore, we have reason to believe Knox applies]] |
| 446 | *** [[color:red:My Red Truth regarding the Decalogue applies to its existence as absolute rules, that every event has followed to the letter. It is not absolute, but it '''is''' a valid perspective, and thus the rules can be cited in Red without any problems. However, to establish the Decalogue as absolute rules, the current Game Master,]][[note]]Battler as of the conclusion of [=EP5=][[/note]] [[color:red:and '''ONLY''' the Game Master, must state in Gold that the events of the game follow the Decalogue.]] |
| 447 | |
| 448 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:Some of the poems shown in Higurashi were written after the events of Umineko, and are written to refer to events in both series.]]]] |
| 449 | [[color:blue:For example, this poem also refers to Battler's sin.]] |
| 450 | |
| 451 | -->Do you know what your sin is? |
| 452 | -->It isn't because you ate the forbidden fruit. |
| 453 | -->Do you know what your sin is? |
| 454 | -->It isn't because you listened to the serpent. |
| 455 | -->You still don't know what what your sin is? |
| 456 | -->Then, that itself is your sin. |
| 457 | |
| 458 | -->-Frederica Bernkastel |
| 459 | |
| 460 | * [[color:red:This is plausible. It is currently unknown if ''Umineko'' was in the planning stages when that poem was written.]] [[color:blue:However, it might just be a coincidence.]] |
| 461 | |
| 462 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:Erika loss the fifth game due to the early suspension.]]]] |
| 463 | [[color:blue: The various abillities her detective's authority grants her only work if the game actually finishes. For example, someone could have been disguising him/herself, but the clue or clues indicating that appeared after the game was suspended and thus Erika didn't have the chance to see them. Likewise, Knox's 3rd doesn't gurentee that the detective will find any secret passages she looks for, but rather gurentees the she'll find any relevent to the mystery by the end of the game. Thus for example, she may have found some piece of evidence impicating Shannon in the crime had the game not ended early. For that matter, Natsuhi may have been the fourth twilight victim.]] |
| 464 | |
| 465 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: Knox's 2nd is just an excuse.]]]] |
| 466 | [[color:blue: The real reason characters began demanding evidence to support the red is that they realized that it could be worded in a misleading way.]] For example,[[color:red:Natsuhi isn't the culprit.]] could refer to someone who isn't even on the island. |
| 467 | |
| 468 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:The Ushiromiya Eva we know is not the true Ushiromiya Eva, but an imposter.]]]] |
| 469 | [[color:red: Near the end of Alliance of the Golden Witch, Ange proclaims in red that her ''entire family'' never came home from Rokkenjima.]] [[color:blue: At some point prior to meeting Hideyoshi, the real Eva spent a substantial ammount of time away from her family, met someone with an extremly similar appearance and the same given name and told this person a great deal about herself and her family. However the original Eva died somehow and this new Eva took her place.]] Since she isn't really part of the Ushiromiya family Red Truths referring to the family do not include her. |
| 470 | * Given the emotional context and the Red Truth's established unreliability, it's more likely that "Ange's family" refers to her direct relatives: Rudolf, Kyrie, Batter. |
| 471 | |
| 472 | [[WMG: Regarding piece-Beatrice]] |
| 473 | |
| 474 | [[color:purple:Beatrice]] [[color:gray:(1) is|(2) is not]] [[color:purple:a member of the Ushiromiya family. She]] [[color:gray:(1) is|(2) is not]] [[color:purple:a half-sibling to the other Ushiromiya siblings, with Kinzo as father and Rosa's childhood story Beatrice as mother, and an unnaturally similar appearance to her mother. In every episode she]] [[color:grey: (3) comes|(4) doesn't come]] [[color:purple:to the family conference, but doesn't appear since]] [[color:gray:(5) some characters' actions {(5.0) manslaughter|(5.1) murder} |(6) a fatal accident]] [[color:purple:kill her early during her stay on Rokkenjima. The servants, in any case, aren't allowed to let the other siblings know about her death.]] Just because she's a mean bitch doesn't mean she's the culprit whenever she shows up. |
| 475 | |
| 476 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: X games does not mean X worlds.]]]] |
| 477 | [[color:blue:There are two worlds involved in each game. A mystery world in which everything was done without magic, and a fantasy world in which somethings (i.e. atleast everything shown to be done with magic) were done by magic. Battler and the readers never actually see the Mystery worlds, but the Red truths refer to them. Furthermore, Beato deliberatly chose to show Battler Fantasy world's which would give him the neccesary information to figure out what happened in the Mystery world's without actually knowing those worlds existed.]] |
| 478 | * [[color:red:This is plausible.]] I wouldn't be surprised if this was '''canon'''. |
| 479 | * The braun tube argument of [=EP3=] is a very strong support of this theory. In fact, one possible solution is that [[color:blue:Umineko exists in a 'space' where both the fantasy world and the mystery world exist.]] Due to Battler's anti-magic power, however, his presence(And in Game 5, Erika's) prevents the existance of magic in his presence. This makes the two worlds akin to two pieces of paper side-by-side, able to move freely with differing events, with Battler acting as a pencil lanced through both pieces of paper, forcing events in his vicinity to remain very similar, but the farther away from his anti-magic power, the more the two worlds are allowed to differ. |
| 480 | ** One reason Beatrice wants Battler to win is because [[color:blue:if he loses the Mystery World will be blown away and cease to exist, leaving only the fantasy world]]... a world in which she's a sadistic witch that has lived for a thousand years in cruelty and will live for a hundred thousand more. She wants Battler to win and destroy her for the sake of her own heart. |
| 481 | |
| 482 | [[WMG: Shannon and Beatrice are both alternate personalities of Kanon's.]] |
| 483 | Prepare for TL;DR. |
| 484 | |
| 485 | First off, this isn't exactly a new theory, but I don't see a formal entry for it, and especially not one as indepth as what I'm about to provide. |
| 486 | |
| 487 | The basic premise also has a twist. Although the current Shannon is a product of Kanon's invention, Shannon was indeed a real person up to a certain moment in time. Shannon died for some reason (perhaps falling from the rocks when she went to break the mirror as per her deal with Beatrice, maybe she fell off that cursed fenceless cliff of doom people keep dying on, maybe she fell down the stairs in a tragic Dojikko fashion. Ultimately irrelevant), and her death was recent enough for Shannon's and George's romance to be entirely sincere. I would wager that her death happened after the formation of the romance, a few months before October 1986. Most importantly, her corpse was preserved and stored somewhere. |
| 488 | |
| 489 | Kanon recreated Shannon in his mind because he couldn't bear the depth of his onee-chan, and although he couldn't see the sea past its greys, she could see its blue. This new Shannon is a sincere personality, carrying on her life. Kanon is so dedicated to preserving her existence that his own self only came out for his servant's duties, causing him to become the depleted, repressed "furniture" we see today. He runs from his love for Jessica because he doesn't want to jeoprodize Shannon's future with George. |
| 490 | |
| 491 | The Servants may or may not know of this; they surely would've noticed something was up, and it's not the first time they covered a death. Besides, there's no malice, and they surely miss sweet Shannon too, so what harm is there in letting this "magical resurrection" go on? Then again, they might also play into the charade for fear of awakening the ire of the Witch... |
| 492 | |
| 493 | Which brings us to Beatrice. Born at the same moment as "Shannon", of Kanon's resentment that Shannon had to die. Of Kanon's resentment that she couldn't live for Battler to fulfill her promise. That she couldn't live to be "human." Beatrice represents this resentment, and thus she is sympathized with the tragic, caged witch of Beatrice. Like Beatrice, Shannon couldn't see the world save for the blue her magic showed her. Like Beatrice, no one came to save her. Like Beatrice, she has to use the magic of lies to keep existing. And like Beatrice, she may have died on the rocks while yearning for freedom. And now...the only way Beatrice can be free, the only way Shannon can be free, is if she dies like she was meant to. Kanon's insistence on their existence is like trapping a ghost. An unpleasant half-existence. |
| 494 | |
| 495 | Is it not telling that Shannon has seen the Golden Land, which can only be visited through death? Lord knows Kanon can't be the false personality. Not only is it red that no one can take his name, but there is just no way you'd bound up those ginormous tits. |
| 496 | |
| 497 | Is it not telling that Kanon and Shannon not only have magical powers when almost no other real human does, but they're also "furniture" like Beatrice's magical servants? |
| 498 | |
| 499 | Is it not telling that only Kanon and Shannon can see Beatrice prior to the start of the Games, due to their being on the same "wavelength?" Yea, I fucking thought so. Though Maria can see Beatrice, one could argue this is just Beatrice being the dominant personality. What is clear is that Kanon, Shannon, and Beatrice behave like typical "headmates" of a Multiple system. |
| 500 | |
| 501 | Most tellingly, in my opinion, is that at the Tea Party of the First Game, we have the children who lived to the end, Beatrice, and Kanon and Shannon. Why the hell are they there? Sure, you could argue that it's because of Jessica's and George's wish, but then why exclude Rosa? The reason they're there is because Beatrice is there, and they're all parts of each other. |
| 502 | |
| 503 | How can we work this into the specific Games? Let's see: |
| 504 | |
| 505 | First Game: Shannon's death in the first Twilight is simple. The Beatrice personality just appropriately mutilates and places the Shannon corpse, and then suppresses the Shannon personality from doing anything. Simple enough. After this things get a bit tricky. What about Kanon's death? Perhaps he may have have a Battle In the Center of the Mind with Beatrice, and she won out. After this, Beatrice fakes Kanon's death, and perhaps Nanjo is an accomplice. He's also necessary then for placing the letter that gets the servants and Maria kicked out of Kinzo's study. Beatrice then swoops in and kills the servants, and later Natsuhi. Beatrice may also be responsible for the message in a bottle. |
| 506 | |
| 507 | Second Game: Simple. Kanon's death is reconciled by Kanon's personality being suppressed, and Beatrice takes control of the body. The Fake Kanon scene is effectively Beatrice revealing herself and forcing the servants into cooperation under penalty of death. When they report to Rosa, it's Beatrice speaking through Shannon's mouth, and she's threatening the servants to collaborate with her story, to both support the magic narrative and clear Kanon's name. After this, she drags off George and Gohda and kills them, then dumps the Shannon corpse. Beatrice proceeds to clean up the rest of the murders, throws out the message in a bottle, yadda yadda. |
| 508 | |
| 509 | Third Game: Shit gets messy here. Beatrice carries out the First Twilight, dumps the Shannon corpse, and then fumbles and accidentally gets themself killed. The Dojikko curse. After this, Eva Culprit theory kicks in, but this doesn't explain Nanjo's death, does it? Well, I kind've found it suspicious that Krauss and Natsuhi's corpses are removed and unfound. Perhaps Eva-Beatrice dealt with them, but Natsuhi was still alive albeit injured? She knows she has to stop Eva, but she instead comes across Nanjo and an injured Jessica, and assumes that Nanjo is an accomplice. We know that mental stability isn't her thing. |
| 510 | * OP Here. Actually, after reviewing some facts, I'd like to amend this. [[color:blue: Eva is not the culprit of Episode 3, and the entirety of Eva-Beatrice is a complete red herring.]] Eva is actually completely innocent, though she falsifies aspects of her alibi so she could investigate independently, or even check on the gold. Kanontrice faked her death with Nanjo's help again and carried everything out, framing Eva. This Beatrice is the one who kills Nanjo. |
| 511 | ** [[07151129 = July 15/November 29. Battler's birthday, and the day Shannon died. Battler's sin. This would of course pin Shannon's death as almost a year ago, which is workable.]] |
| 512 | |
| 513 | Fourth Game: It's safe to assume that atleast the Beatrice personality is aware of where the gold is. She could come forward and present this similar to the Second Game, and proclaim herself as the new family head, and thus the new Kinzo of Goldsmith. Beatrice kills the First Twilight victims, kidnaps everyone else, etcetera. She has them say what she wants over the phone via threat of violence as usual. She visits George disguised as Shannon and kills him. She visits Jessica disguised as Kanon and has her say what she wants on the phone, then kills her. She gives her beloved Maria a beautiful death as usual. Pretending to be an escaped Shannon, she gets the key from Gohda, gets into the shed, kills them, and locks it back up. Battler was unable to verify that the key was still on Gohda's person, after all. Beatrice kills the kidnappees where they are, has Kyrie say as she wants under threat of violence, then puts out the Shannon corpse. Now Beatrice takes on her own appearances, tests Battler, yadda yadda. Unsatisfied with his answer, she commits suicide in Kinzo's study. What kills Battler in the end? A bomb rigged up beforehand that goes off at the tenth twilight. |
| 514 | |
| 515 | Fifth Game: I'm so not even touching this due to how much Lambdadelta and Bernkastel utterly fuck with the game. Though the implication seems to be that Kanon and Shannon switch regularly and Beatrice never emerges. |
| 516 | * [[color:red: There are five master keys, one for each servant.]] Therefore, [[color:blue: If Shannon and Kanon are the same person at the start of the game an as of yet unseen servent must be on the island.]] |
| 517 | ** Simple. [[color:blue: Kanon and Shannon, as alternate personalities, count as separate servants. If Krauss and Natsuhi are not aware of Shannon's demise, Kanon can still be collecting her payroll and still have her master key.]] |
| 518 | *** [[color:red: It is never/not yet stated no one can take Shannon's name and identity.]] [[color:blue:It is also implied that a "Person" refers to a body, currently alive and functioning, not the spirit of a human being or furniture. For example, at one point in arc 3, the disembodied spirit of Kanon helps Jessica move to safety. Since he is dead, and not in a funtioning body, he is not technically "human", and does not count as one on the island at the time, even though he does, indeed, have the soul of Kanon. Therefore, even this "Shannon" would be counted as a seperate person, and therefore furniture, than Kanon.]]...And to the second one... As said before, [[color:blue:Even if they did know of Shannon's death, they still most likely wanted some sort of extra help around the place, and most likely even shared some sort of bond with her, so they didn't report the incident to Kinzo, hoping he wouldn't notice anything strange going on with her.]] |
| 519 | ** [[color:red: Kanon was killed in this (Jessica's) room (in the second game)]] [[color:blue:There exists no evidence that killed has ever meant anything other then Murdered.]] [[color:red: unless you can provide clues in the story that killed can mean one's identity was suppressed and that killed can be something one does to them self, knox's 8th renders your argument invalid.]] |
| 520 | ** 1. We've definitely seen that words don't have static definitions. For example, witches "die" of boredom, or a person "dies" when s/he stops thinking. Just because we haven't had someone refer to "kill" specifically is irrelevant. 2. More importantly, who said Kanon wasn't murdered? And who said that it was something done to himself? He was murdered by Yasu, who is a separate person. It's just not a physical murder. Since Shkannon is all but confirmed, there is no possible way for Kanon to be murdered physically if Shannon isn't as well. |
| 521 | |
| 522 | * [=EP6=] makes it pretty obvious that Kanon and Shannon are the same person, and hints strongly that s/he is also Beatrice. (See "Kanon is Shannon", up near the top.) |
| 523 | |
| 524 | [[WMG: Gaap represents Natsuhi.]] |
| 525 | What is Gaap's role and power? She disposes of corpses to create Closed Rooms, hide times of deaths, and such like that. |
| 526 | |
| 527 | What is Natsuhi's biggest secret? She covered up Kinzo's death and burned it in the furnace to hide how long ago he died. |
| 528 | |
| 529 | On top of that, neither of them wear the One Winged Eagle, and oddity for both sides. Ding ding ding! Winner. |
| 530 | |
| 531 | * It would have to be someone willing to sit down to tea with Maria and play the role with Beatrice, Ronove and Virgilia -- this is how she originally got her name. It hasn't been shown to be in Natsuhi's character to roleplay, especially with someone playing Beatrice. Jessica would fit, though. Gaap doesn't wear the Eagle because 1) she isn't actually under Beatrice's command, she helps as a favor and when it's fun to, and 2) she represents Jessica's independent side, the one that would reject the family and succession to be herself. |
| 532 | |
| 533 | [[WMG: The "[[ChessMotif chess]]" game they're playing isn't actually chess, it's [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimaa Arimaa]].]] |
| 534 | [[http://arimaa.com/arimaa/ Arimaa]] has some similarities to chess and it can be played using a chess board and chess pieces, but it's definitely not chess. [[http://arimaa.com/arimaa/learn/flash/vs/new/ Watch this tutorial]] and think of the people on the game board as Arimaa pieces instead of chess pieces and see if it makes sense to you. |
| 535 | |
| 536 | Oh, and before you bring up the Knox rule about not solving the mystery with clues not presented; 1) This doesn't exactly solve the mystery, and 2) in the beginning of the 5th game, when Battler was re-examining Beato's old moves it was mentioned that the game looked like chess at a glance, but when you looked closer it wasn't like any chess game or something |
| 537 | (sorry if I wasn't very articulate in stating this wmg but it's 4:30 am) |
| 538 | * In EP 6, there's also mentionings of "not-chess." Battler also comments about pushing and pulling back. |
| 539 | |
| 540 | [[WMG:[[color:blue: At the end of the game the players have a minute to make any last minute arguments or counterarguments.]]]] |
| 541 | Furthermore, from our perspecitve the endgames seem to last much longer then a minute.[[color:blue:However, despite appearances, [[TalkingIsAFreeAction talking is not a free action.]] The reason the endgames clearly last much longer then a minute is because whenever a player makes a move time gets added to his or her clock, much like "fixed extra time" in chess.]] |
| 542 | * Additionally, Time moves differently in the Meta-world, as evidenced by the way that they can stop a scene. Presumably if they shut up for a while time will keep moving, so they have to keep arguing to maintain the hesitation of time, which is another reason for their battles to be so desperate. |
| 543 | |
| 544 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:Erika can see dead people.]]]] |
| 545 | [[color:blue: Kinzo's name is passed on as the title of the Ushiromiya family head! Therefore, as long as someone in the Ushiromiya family is alive Kinzo is alive.]] [[color:red:From 24:00 until morning, a living Kinzo could only have existed inside Natsuhi's bed. Furthermoe, Natsuhi is pure and faithful.]] Therefore, [[color:blue:a living Kinzo can't exist and the whole Ushiromiya family is dead, this includes Ange and the Other Battler. Since Erika sees several members of the Ushiromiya family she is able to see dead people.]] |
| 546 | |
| 547 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: Natsuhi isn't pure and faithful.]]]] |
| 548 | [[color:red: Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. Erika deduced that a living Kinzo couldn't exist outside of Natsuhi's bed, and used that as a basis to question Natsuhi's faithfulness. Battler countered by presenting his grandfather's corpse. However, I can construct a theory in which Natsuhi had sex with a different "Kinzo".]][[color:blue: Kinzo's name is passed on as the title of the Ushiromiya family head! Therefore, as long as someone in the Ushiromiya family is alive Kinzo is alive.]][[color:red:When Erika searched for Kinzo, the only Ushiromiyas whose locations were unknown were the people whose bodies had gone missing. Krauss was dead by that point in time, and Erika had used her seals to confirm the location of the others during the night.]] However, [[color:blue: one of those people may have been someone disgusing him/herself as someone else.]] |
| 549 | * [[color:red:Knox's 10th. It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues.]] |
| 550 | ** [[color:red:In the second game we saw Jessica cosplaying as [[Franchise/TouhouProject Marisa Kirisame]] Furthermore, Franchise/TouhouProject was released in 1996 and thus Jessica couldn't have gotten the design from Touhou.]]Therefore, [[color:blue: she must have gotten the design from the actual Marisa, and if Jessica can convincingly cosplay as Marisa the reverse is also true. Therefore, the "Jessica" that was with the other cousins that night is actually Marisa disguised as Jessica and the real Jessica was in Natsuhi's bed. Given Jessica's age and the fact Natsuhi goes so far as to act like she beleives everyone when they tell her Jessica is dead. We can conclude that [[ParentalIncest Natsuhi and Jessica had sex.]] Furthermore, the majority of episode 5 was Natsuhi trolling Erika.]] |
| 551 | *** [[color:red:The timeline of ''Franchise/WhenTheyCry'' does not match ours in terms of when media is released (see Higurashi)]]. [[color:blue:''Franchise/TouhouProject'' was, in the ''Franchise/WhenTheyCry'' timeline, released in the early 1980s or before.]] |
| 552 | *** [[color:red: Umineko itsef was released far earlier in the Franchise/WhenTheyCry timeline, then it was in our universe (i.e. the message bottles, and Featherine's stories). And of course, the events of Umineko are atleast partial based on actual events within Franchise/WhenTheyCry-verse.]] Therefore, [[color:blue:any media released in the Franchise/WhenTheyCry timeline prior to its release in our timeline is based on actual events that took place within the Franchise/WhenTheyCry timeline. Therefore, Marisa exists and is capable of disguising herself as Jessica.]] |
| 553 | *** [[color:red: There are no more than 18 people on the island. It is impossible for any person known as Marisa to exist on the island. It is only possible for someone to pretend to be Marisa to be on the island. However, even if someone who pretends to be Marisa is on the island, that person would be unable to pretend to be Jessica because it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues. If Marisa is a person who exists, it is impossible for her to exist on the island. If Marisa is a person who does not exist, it is impossible for her to exist on the island except under the guise of an existing character. There are no clues presented that any person other than Marisa would be capable of disguising themselves as Jessica, or that anyone other than Jessica is able to disguise themselves as Marisa, and there are no clues that a person known as Marisa would be able to disguise themselves as anyone other than Jessica. Therefore it is only possible for a person known as Marisa to disguise themselves as a person known as Jessica. It is impossible for a person known as Marisa to exist on this island. It is impossible for Jessica or any other character to escape or enter the room before the discovery of the bodies without drawing attention from Erika. Knox's 7th: It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit. As Erika is neither the culprit nor an observer, she does not have the right to be lie about events that occur. Jessica is incapable of exiting or entering the room without Erika noticing, therefore it is impossible for Jessica to have sex with Natsuhi. All other alibis have been accounted for. It is impossible for Ushiromiya Kinzo to exist in Natsuhi's bed.]] |
| 554 | |
| 555 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: Battler's theory about Kinzo's name is incorrect.]]]] |
| 556 | [[color:blue:Everyone at the family conference was shown Kinzo's corpse and recognized the existence of the late Kinzo.]] |
| 557 | * Alternatively, everyone recognising the existence of Kinzo doesn't actually imply the existence of Kinzo at the family conference. [[color:blue:Krauss agreed to the rest of the family's demands in return for them recognising the existence of Kinzo.]] |
| 558 | |
| 559 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: Ange's timeline in the fourth game is an illusion.]]]] |
| 560 | [[color:red:Due to Battler's sin, everyone on the island dies.]] [[color:blue:Therefore, it is impossible for Eva to have survived. That was an illusion crafted in order to create Meta-Ange and deliver clues to Battler.]] |
| 561 | * Technically, the line is [[color:red:Because of your sin, people die.]] There's no Red Text guarantee that everyone must die. |
| 562 | ** From the novel: [[color:red:Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die.]] So actually there is a red text guarantee. |
| 563 | *** That still doesn't necessarily mean anything. The Red can be wrong depending on interpretation. It's going to have to be proven wrong anyway when the ending rolls around (There's just no way we're not getting a happy ending here, let's face it). |
| 564 | *** That particular red text referred to the gameboard of Episode 4. 1998 Ange was from the Episode 3 gameboard timeline, and no red text prevents that Eva from surviving the island. |
| 565 | |
| 566 | [[WMG:The remaining Siestas are not bunny girls.]] |
| 567 | When Maria received the rabbits a lot believe the Siesta sisters are based on, she didn't just receive those rabbits. It was a whole forest band of different animals. There were about 20 in all. Just the four were rabbits. The remaining are all sorts of other {{Half Human Hybrid}}s. So when they started referring to the other Siestas in [=EP6=], those are the rest of the forest band! We're going to see CatGirl Siesta, Dog Girl Siesta, Rooster Girl Siesta, Tanuki Girl Siesta (My, that one will be interesting), etc.! |
| 568 | |
| 569 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: Higurashi was a solitaire game]]]] |
| 570 | In the sixth game, Lambda said that Bern used to be the piece of an incompetent game master who lost sight of her goals and created a logic error. The incompetent GM forced Bern to repeat events over and over in order to find a solution, and Bern escaped by becoming a witch. But in the second game, Bern said that she was born from "Lambda's game". Also, Lambda wrote in her diary that she had tried to help a girl who "wanted to become a god", and that girl created a new witch for her. There was no indication that Lambda was competing with someone as part of that process. |
| 571 | |
| 572 | [[color:blue: The only way to reconcile this information is if the "incompetent GM" was Lambda herself. Then, since both Bern and Takano were Lambda's pieces, she wasn't playing against anyone but herself. In that case, even Hanyuu was one of her pieces, which implies various things about Featherine...]] |
| 573 | |
| 574 | * It's entirely possible that Featherine was Lambda's opponent. It certainly seems like Hanyuu was her piece, or something. |
| 575 | ** We don't know. But right now, we do know that Bernkastel was Featherine's miko. In other words, she was reading Featherine's story, just like Ange in ep6. |
| 576 | *** The GM was Hanyuu, she started the game resurrecting Rika, but she stopped playing until the last Kakera. |
| 577 | ** It's also possible that Featherine is a character invented by Lambda to be her opponent. After all, Meta Battler was Beatrice's piece originally, but that didn't stop them playing games with each other. |
| 578 | |
| 579 | [[WMG:The closed room that produced the logic error in [=EP6=] is not referring to the Guest Room but to the entire Mansion]] |
| 580 | If we reread all the red texts concerning the Guest Room closed room. The term Closed room is not directly appointed to the guest room. |
| 581 | As this troper sees in the beginning of the sixth episodes, there is a puzzle in which the solution is to put one inside another. |
| 582 | What if the real closed room is the mansion and the guestroom is a closed room inside another? |
| 583 | * Your spelling needs work. I cleaned it up for you. As for your theory, [[color:red:it is plausible.]] |
| 584 | |
| 585 | [[WMG:Okonogi is the Mastermind but not the culprit]] |
| 586 | Okonogi is cited in the first game. He could easily get any pressure method for almost any characters of the game. What if he is using that to make people do things they are not supposed to do (e.g. Natsuhi in the closet in the Guestroom)? |
| 587 | * Yeah, Okonogi is the mastermind, and Gohda is the culprit, he constricted his fist, and the whole island exploded. True story. |
| 588 | |
| 589 | [[WMG:Younger Beatrice is weak against Mirrors because they reflect whom she really is.]] |
| 590 | If you take the whole theory that Beatrice=Shannon=Kanon, it also explains why Beatrice had Shannon destroy the mirror in the shrine. |
| 591 | A mirror will reveal the true body regardless of the personality in charge -- doing so breaks the illusion of the witch on herself. Once the mirror was broken in Ep2, Beatrice became more powerful because there was no way to break the illusion in her mind. It also explains why Beatrice couldn't harm Natsuhi properly in Ep6 until she dropped the mirror. |
| 592 | * Even if you don't take the multiple personality theories as true this still works! Even from a meta perspective, since she's really a Human she has the anti-magic toxin that comes from her eyes and is probably reflected by mirrors. |
| 593 | |
| 594 | [[WMG: The story does not actually take place in 1986.]] |
| 595 | Some people have noticed things that they believe hint at the gameboard being a story told between the characters, with the metaworld usually being a warped representation of the real world. If this is true than the metaworld doesn't need to be in 1986. If it's not set in 1986 then when is it set? Probably 1992, 6 years after the gameboard's setting, after all if Beatrice is using the story to remind Battler of his sin it has to be set in the time period he did so, and since they say he sinned 6 years ago if the story isn't set in 1986 it must be set 6 years after the sin that took place in 1986. |
| 596 | |
| 597 | [[WMG: Lambda's true goal...]] |
| 598 | Bern, listen. |
| 599 | |
| 600 | I will seal you in this Fragment, through your own pride at being unable to accept a loss. So that you may hurt no one else. |
| 601 | |
| 602 | You may now hold the game board though the manipulation of that monster, Featherine, but I hold the trump card. |
| 603 | |
| 604 | Battler and Beato will never give up. You will never make them surrender. I guarantee it on my name as the Witch of Certainty. No matter how much you twist this story, you will not win. |
| 605 | |
| 606 | Beloved~, you will not leave until you rediscover love. |
| 607 | |
| 608 | * Where's this from, I wonder? Sounds interesting. |
| 609 | |
| 610 | [[WMG:In [=EP6=], Battler was a terrible Game Master.]] |
| 611 | The events of [=EP6=] were not due to Erika being a supergenius or detective or anything. The fault, really, lies mostly due to Battler not just holding, but ''juggling'' [[IdiotBall idiot balls]]. His biggest mistakes, from minor to major: |
| 612 | ** Letting Erika have the duct tape in the first place. |
| 613 | ** Letting Erika get away with taping his room and not tell him until it came up, when he made the rule that she would have to tell him immediately when she was applying the tape. |
| 614 | ** Letting Erika out of his sight on the gameboard long enough to let her kill 5 people without him knowing until later. |
| 615 | Of course, it's been shown that Battler, while terribly clever, isn't always ''smart''. |
| 616 | * To be fair to Battler, 1) The first point was him letting his heart get the better of him, and 2) the second two points are the fault of the Game Master not being an omniscient being. |
| 617 | ** (OP Here) Of course, this brings up another question... if the Game Master ''isn't'' a an omniscient being when it comes to the happenings and going-ons of the island, or even the opposing player's happenings and going-ons... what ''are'' their powers? |
| 618 | *** And what about everything being planned in order for the "miracle" in the end of ep6 to happen? Just like Kinzo is always doing, and there is a lot of comparison between Battler and Kinzo since ep5. Well, if it is not the case, yeah, Battler is really stupid and incompetent. Basically, he was playing in the witch side like a detective, repeating everything, etc, and it can not work. |
| 619 | *** Actually... |
| 620 | |
| 621 | [[WMG: It is implied that Battler planned everything out in [=EP6=].]] |
| 622 | Not only does it make the story much more coherent, but Lambdadelta, someone who knows the entire truth, praised Battler for his "logic error", saying that he surpassed Bern as one who created miracles instead of waiting for one. And if there's a solution to it, then it wasn't really a Logic Error. It was all a Xanatos Gambit to force Beato to revive. He even goes so far as to awkwardly say, "Oh, if only the real Beatrice was here. She'd think of a solution in no time flat." And later, everyone is waiting for Beatrice to show up, to the point of calling her late! To say nothing of the Kinzo parallels of Battler trapping himself in an eternal locked room, pushing all his chips on one space to revive BEATORIICHE. |
| 623 | * This is awesome and I want this to be true. |
| 624 | * You are my new favourite person, and I love you from the bottom of my heart. |
| 625 | ** Gosh, guys, thanks for the praise. Makin' me blush here. On that note... |
| 626 | |
| 627 | % just for fun |
| 628 | [[WMG: Beatrice(s) is a typhoon(s)]] |
| 629 | Fun fact. In 1947, there was a typhoon that passed through the sea of Japan, though it didn't actually hit the country. What was it's name? Beatrice. It was also the 19th typhoon of the year. Coincidence? I think not. We also know that Umineko is a separate universe from the real world with minor historical differences like Higurashi is, so perhaps the rules can be stretched here. Perhaps that typhoon did hit Japan. And, well...there were rumors of an Axis ship that was smuggling illegally obtained Nazi gold to hide which got sunk...perhaps the typhoon shipwrecked it and Kinzo found the gold? It helps that when Rokkenjima is hit by a typhoon that Kinzo declares, "You're late, Beatrice!" Out the window, then claims to give the ring to her by tossing it out into the storming sky. |
| 630 | |
| 631 | [[WMG: An attempt to solve the first game]] |
| 632 | First twilight: The culprit first took the key to the garden shed, went around the main mansion, killed the first six victims, dragged them into the garden shed, locked them up, drew the magic circle and then returned the key to the servants' room. |
| 633 | |
| 634 | Second twilight: Hideyoshi and Eva were poisoned. The culprit was able to switch Hideyoshi's jar of bathing soap with an identical jar of poisoned bathing soap. (This doesn't violate Knox's 4th as there are many well known organic chlorine compounds whose vapors are toxic to humans in even the slightest amounts.) After the culprit made sure that both of them are dead, he used a strong magnet to undo the chain lock on the door to Eva's and Hideoyoshi's room, entered the room with a gas mask on his face, opened the windows to drain the room of the toxic vapor, switched the soap jars, staked the bodies, and then exited the room, locking the door in the same way in which he unlocked it. Once again, he drew the magic circle on the door. |
| 635 | |
| 636 | Fourth twilight: The culprit hauled Kinzo's body from the fridge to the incinerator; |
| 637 | |
| 638 | The letter: Maria dropped it on the table; |
| 639 | |
| 640 | Final three twilights: The culprit entered the parlor, and used a special crossbow to fire the poisoned stakes, one by one, at Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa in that order; He then quickly ran out of the parlor, leaving behind in it Maria and the bodies. |
| 641 | |
| 642 | Natsuhi's death: Shot by the culprit using one of the spare Winchester rifles. |
| 643 | |
| 644 | Battler, Maria, George and Jessica died in the explosion. |
| 645 | |
| 646 | Let's start looking for the culprit through the process of elimination; We have |
| 647 | |
| 648 | ( )( )( )( )\ |
| 649 | ( )( )( )( )\ |
| 650 | [[color:white:( )]]( )( )( )\ |
| 651 | ( )( )[[color:white:( )]]( )\ |
| 652 | ( )( )( )( ) |
| 653 | |
| 654 | Kinzou is dead from the start, and in one of the later games, it is stated that neither Battler nor Maria are culprits (applies to all games); Therefore, we can eliminate them from the suspect list; Among the first twilight victims, only Krauss and Shannon didn't have their faces bashed in completely; The second twilight is impossible to fake; A red truth from episode 4's ???? states that Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa really are dead, and that neither one of them is a murderer. Another red truth from episode 4's ???? states that Natsuhi was murdered; Therefore, she cannot be the culprit; All of the cousins were trapped in the parlor when Natsuhi died, so Jessica and George cannot be suspected; Another red truth from episode 4's ???? states that the identities of all the unidentified corpses are guaranteed and that no body double tricks are possible; That rules out all first twilight victims, and we're left with... |
| 655 | |
| 656 | (x)(x)(x)(x)\ |
| 657 | (x)(x)(x)(x)\ |
| 658 | [[color:white:(x)]](x)(x)(x)\ |
| 659 | (x)(x)[[color:white:(x)]](x)\ |
| 660 | (x)(x)(x)(x) |
| 661 | |
| 662 | (x = not the culprit) |
| 663 | |
| 664 | There is no 19th person on the island. (Including Kinzou's corpse) This means... |
| 665 | |
| 666 | ...wait, what? |
| 667 | |
| 668 | * Second twilight couldn't work that way, since from the fourth game we have red text about that twilight saying that "[[color:red: ..the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room! No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room!]]" |
| 669 | * The fourth game red text guaranteeing the identities of corpses doesn't guarantee that anyone they think is dead is in fact dead. Although there is red text that will guarantee Eva, Hideyoshi, Kinzo, Kumasawa, Genji, Nanjo and Natsuhi had died, and although Battler, Maria, George and Jessica were trapped in the parlour at the time of Natsuhi's death, there is nothing in the red text preventing Rudolf, Kyrie, Krauss, Rosa, Gohda, Shannon or Kanon being alive at that time if they had pretended to be dead earlier. As any of the first twilight victims would still need someone outside to let them out, and as Kanon's red text only allows the options of "faked his own death" and "killed by a trap", Shannon and Kanon seem the most likely culprits. |
| 670 | |
| 671 | [[WMG: Kanon is Kinzo.]] |
| 672 | This could be true regardless of whether or not Shkannon(trice) is true, so we'll leave that variant aside. |
| 673 | |
| 674 | Kanon is the only servant, hell the only person period that Kinzo tells to solve the Epitaph. While Kinzo has been dead, Kanon did meet him, and it's already theorized that fantasy!Kinzo's dialogues happened in the past when he was still alive. (And if Kanon is Beatrice, he sort of has to know where the gold is anyway.) |
| 675 | |
| 676 | Kanon finds the gold, inherits the legitimate headship and Kinzo's name, and everyone must acknowledge it in [=EP4=]. Cue Goldsmith shenanigans. It also allows for the filling of the [=EP6=] Closed room Logic Error. "Kanon" isn't in the guestroom anymore, he's "Kinzo" now. That, and this all allows Kanon to be with Jessica without having to deal with the ire of her family. Hurray! |
| 677 | |
| 678 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:Erika's last red truth in the 6th Game and the Following Red Truth do not contradict each other]]]] |
| 679 | This ties into the Shannon=Kanon theory. Basically, Erika's red truth was [[color:red:I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!]] The red truth that followed was [[color:red:Even if you do join us- There are 17 people.]] If we take the word "human" to mean anything that can be classified as a human (even a corpse), and the word "people" to mean number of pieces living (or assumed to be living) on Rokkenjima, then both statements can be true, and it could very well add evidence to the Shannon=Kanon theory. |
| 680 | |
| 681 | [[color:blue:Kinzo's body + Erika's body = two dead humans on Rokkenjima (leaving 16 humans remaining)]] |
| 682 | |
| 683 | [[color:blue:Shannon + Kanon = two separate people who happen to share one body.]] |
| 684 | * [[color:red: In most cases, including this one, 'human' and 'person' are derived from the same Japanese word in the translation, so trying to make a semantics argument that they're different doesn't work.]] |
| 685 | ** The person above shall no longer take any part in this game. [[strike:Speaking anything but the truth in red shows that he has no respect for the rules and is therefore not qualified to play.]] Erika used "人間", Battler/Beato used "人". The Witch Hunt translation is correct. Interestingly, "人間" can also mean "character" or "personality" ... |
| 686 | *** Oh, shit, I was totally thinking of a different--nevermind, I ballsed up the context. Also way to be a hypocrite; [[strike:you're not allowed to use Gold if you're not the Gamemaster.]] So demoted and your decision repealed. |
| 687 | *** [[color:red:Telling someone that they cannot use the Golden Truth equates to saying that they don't understand the rules and Beato. Such statements should not be said lightly.]] Furthermore, due to the absence of an actual Game Master, [[note]][[color:red:I doubt Ryukishi would show up here, and if he did and made himself known, we'd all call bullshit, even me.]][[/note]] I propose the Golden Truth should be used on this [=WMG=] page [[note]]and the Untranslated page[[/note]] to describe events '''AS THEY ACTUALLY HAPPENED''' rather than how others remembered/presented them. |
| 688 | *** [[color:red:What was originally presented is merely a theory, and not a statement of fact. Therefore there is no need to get so serious about it.]] Also, all of the above posters make valid points concerning the language barriers between English and Japanese, and the Gold Truth. [[color:blue:Now would be a good time for some tea.]] |
| 689 | *** (4th respondent here.) I don't do tea, sorry. Got any Mountain Dew? (OK, now I really think we need a chat room for [=WMG=] discussion.) |
| 690 | |
| 691 | [[WMG: The Repentance Enforcement Agencies of the Great Court of Heaven cover every genre of fiction, not just mystery.]] |
| 692 | We know there are atleast eight disticts exist, and that two of them investigate heresy involving mystery fiction (the 7th using Knox's rules and the 8th using Dine's). And of course in real life there are people who will claim something isn't a real or fair mystery (and is thus heresy) if it violates whichever rules they support. Such people exist for all genre of fiction and thus it seems plausible that the Great Court of Heaven would have districts for every genre of fiction. |
| 693 | * Not gonna call Knox's 8th here, but I would like some evidence in case someone does. |
| 694 | |
| 695 | |
| 696 | |
| 697 | |
| 698 | [[WMG: [[color:blue: A living Kinzo could have existed outside of Natsuhi's bed during the fifth game.]]]] |
| 699 | [[color:blue: The theory "Red truths made during the fifth game can be lies." is correct. Furthermore, Battler's "Kinzo" is a title theory is correct.]][[color:red: According to Erika her investigation showed that a living Kinzo couldn't exist outside the mansion, but she did not say which mansion.]] Therefore, [[color:blue: Kinzo could have existed in Kuwadorian which was not searched.]] Alternativly, [[color:blue: the courtyard counts as being inside the mansion]] and [[color:red: no indication is given that Erika searched the courtyard]]. Thus, [[color:blue: Kinzo could have existed in the courtyard.]] |
| 700 | * [[color:green:The discussion that was previously here was moved to the discussion page, as it had little to do with this topic, but does have useful arguments when it comes to Umineko in general.]] |
| 701 | |
| 702 | [[WMG: Battler was not playing a game of chess with Beatrice.]] |
| 703 | It's either a game of ''{{TabletopGame/Mastermind}}'' or ''{{TabletopGame/Battleship}}''. |
| 704 | * Or possibly a messed up ''{{TabletopGame/Cluedo}}'' game. |
| 705 | |
| 706 | [[WMG: EverybodyDidIt]] |
| 707 | [[color:blue: There was no one killer, no mastermind behind every event. It was a series of accidents, opportunities, and grudges that turned worse. In the end, the destroyer of the Ushiromiya family was in fact, the Ushiromiya family.]] |
| 708 | * It seems ridiculous, but it is REALLY possible. It would explain why, after finding the truth, Battler didn't have a grudge against Beato. Because rules-Beato is not really "the killer", there is not "one killer". |
| 709 | ** Or, to account for accurateness, Everyone did it except Battler, Maria, and whoever Beatrice is. |
| 710 | *** Of course, the three of them may have caused other people to do it, whether on purpose or by accident. |
| 711 | |
| 712 | [[WMG: Erika used magic while trying to prove that Maria's candy magic wasn't magic.]] |
| 713 | [[color:blue:The statement,]] [[color:red:Your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was magic!!]],[[color:blue:refers only to how the candy got inside the cup. It does not explain where the candy came from in the first place.]] We are told that when Erika arrived on Rokkenjima all she had was her swimsuit and her life jacket. Therefore,[[color:blue:she couldn't have had any candy with her when she arrived.]] Furthermore, [[color:red:Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.]], no indication is ever given that she had found or been given candy at any point. Therefore, [[color:blue:she must have created the candy using magic.]] |
| 714 | * She obviously got the candy from the same place the cousins were. |
| 715 | ** [[color:red:Knox's 6th. It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique.]] |
| 716 | *** Cool rule, bro. Good thing I didn't break it huh? |
| 717 | *** Unless there is evidence that candy existed in the place the cousins were in, yes you did. |
| 718 | *** Since the trick was performed RIGHT THERE by the cousins, all she has to do is either grab a piece of candy from whatever candy bowl is in the room, or reuse the candy while Maria's eyes are closed. Duh. |
| 719 | *** Maria and Erika are the only one's who performed the trick. [[color:blue:The candies Maria produced are purely conceptual and do not actually exist. After all if they did exist she would have countered Erika by saying something like]], "You may have put candy under the cup while my eyes were closed. However, [[color:red: when I performed the candy-magic I did not use such a trick."]][[color:blue:Not to mention the fact Maria envied Erika's abillity to perform candy-magic.]] Therefore, there is no evidence to suggest that Erika had access to actual candy. |
| 720 | *** I'm pretty sure George or someone slipped the candy under while Maria wasn't looking, which is why it worked. But if you're just going to rely on "purely conceptual candy" then this whole argument becomes meaningless as it's just a metaphor. No trick actually took place on either party's side. |
| 721 | *** I interpeted Maria's performence of the trick as being akin to Beato showing Battler a magical murder and asking him to explain how it could have been done without magic. The difference being that rather then simply arguing about it Erika decided to show how candy-magic could be done without magic. I really can't see how the scence would make sense if Maria actually performed the trick, or if Erika didn't perform the trick. If Maria actually performs the trick she has no reason to envy Erika, and if Erika doesn't actually perform the trick Maria has no reason to envy her. |
| 722 | |
| 723 | [[WMG: Bernkastel is jealous of Ange.]] |
| 724 | Bern isn't nice to anyone, but she seems to have a particular grudge against Ange and takes every possible opportunity to torment her. Is Bernkastel jealous of Ange? This theory seems unlikely unless Ange's story leads to a happy ending, but why else would Bern focus so much on someone who doesn't even come to Rokkenjima? |
| 725 | * Because she's easy to pick on, is more rewarding of a victim due to her emotional tirades and thus much less boring, and if Ange gets her way, the catbox will be broken and Bern won't be able to play with the Gameboard anymore. Quite literally, Ange's the one force who can really validate the destruction of the catbox, as Magic can only be acknowledged by an outside observer. Battler can prove the truth all he wants, but Ange accepting that truth will be what ends everything. |
| 726 | |
| 727 | [[WMG: Umineko is Higurashi.]] |
| 728 | We already know that different universes exist in the When They Cry series (as explained by Bernie), but I submit that Umineko is Higurashi in a different dimmension. That is to say that in another dimmension, Keiichi is Battler, George is Satoko, Jessica is Mion, Shannon is Rika, Maria is Rena, and Rosa is Shion. However, even though the 12 characters cannot exist in the same realm together (neither can the Hinamizawa Disaster or the Rokkenjima Incident), Rokkenjima and Hinamizawa can exist in the same universe, albeit with a different cast of characters. |
| 729 | |
| 730 | [[WMG: The witches are TheFairFolk.]] |
| 731 | Their incredibly warped sense of morality fits the bill enough, as does their desire for recognition, like Beatrice demanding the players kiss her feet and praise her name. The sacrifices are actually payments she makes to Hell in return for the use of the demons. It also explains her inability to lie, which is why she has to make up ways around whatever is stated in the red text. |
| 732 | ** But, Beatrice can lie and probably does so a lot. The only time she has to tell the truth is when compelled by someone using Blue Truth, and she's the one who introduced that in the the first place. |
| 733 | *** Maybe she only can't lie in the meta-world? I don't recall her using Red Truth on any of the gameboards so far, but I could be wrong. |
| 734 | *** Beatrice lies all the fucking time. She does so every time she says "I'm a witch" or something of the like. It's only the Red that can't lie. She hasn't used Red on the boards because that makes zero fucking sense. |
| 735 | |
| 736 | [[WMG: Beatrice's body is made out of the spirits of Akujikishima.]] |
| 737 | When she was killed, in 1967 she didn't have enough magic power to interact with the physical world in any way. She thus resorted to consuming the spirits of Akujikishima in order to build up magic power. This explains why she has the same weaknesses they do. However, the spirit mirror limited her abillity to consume them, which is why she wanted Shannon to break it. |
| 738 | |
| 739 | [[WMG: Lambdadelta considers her role as the Witch of Certainty more important then her other goals.]] |
| 740 | During the trial Battler tried to use the red truth, [[color:red:Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!!!]], but Dlanor countered with Knox's 2nd. Lambda could have backed up Battler's claim, but didn't because of this the game (temporarily) ended in Bernkastel's victory. Thus, Lambda failed in both the Game Master assigned goal of beating the detective-side, and her personal goal of having the game go on forever. However, as the Witch of Certainty, Lambda rewards those who work hard. Although Erika's theory was wrong, she reached the conclusion that Natsuhi was the culprit though hard work, while Battler was simply told that Natsuhi wasn't the culprit. |
| 741 | |
| 742 | [[WMG:[[color:blue:The use of the terms "humans" and "people" in the last two red truths of the sixth game is a red herring.]]]] |
| 743 | Those red truths were made after six people had been killed. In the fourth game it was established that the red truth doesn't count dead people. Therefore, [[color:blue:at the start of the game there were 23 people on the island.]] |
| 744 | * You're not accounting for the fact that those truths are timeless. |
| 745 | ** [[color:blue: Those truths are not timeless, they are reffering to the state the gameboard was in when they were made.]] It won't matter if you counter that since, [[color:blue:Battler and Beato weren't using the same number base as Erika.]] |
| 746 | *** If we're going to concede that it's referring to the start of the gameboard, then the point about the six dead people and the conclusion of 23 is negated. Way to shoot yourself in the foot. |
| 747 | *** I never said they were reffering to the start of the gameboard, they were made after the game was suspended due to the logic error, and thus are reffering to the state the gameboard was in at 2:34 am on the second day. |
| 748 | *** Nevermind, you're not getting what the problem is. |
| 749 | *** So far, I've made two arguments supporting my cliam that the difference (if any) between humans and people doesn't matter. Both of which rely on extra people being on the island, the various Love Duels (for example Chick!Beato and Lucifer's duel with Natsuhi) are sufficent evidence to satisfy Knox's 8th, as is Erika and Dlanor's conversation when the former discovered the lack of duct tape. Argument 1: [[color:blue:There were 23 people at the start of the sixth game. Erika was the 18th people (and that status doesn't change when the number of people changes). Erika murdered six people. Bringing the number of people down to 17. The red truths made at the end refer to the condition that the gameboard was in at 2:34 am on the second day.]] Nanjo's murder in the third game showed that the Red Truth is time sensitive. If you would claim that the last two Red Truths of the sixth game were not time sensitive you must present evidence to support that claim. Argument 2: [[color:blue:Both Red Truths are reffering to the start of the game. However, Beato and Battler were using base 13, in other words there were 20 (in base 10) people on the island. The statement 6*9=42 is sufficent to show that base 13 could have been used instead of base 10.]] I will now present a third argument which doesn't rely on any extra prople being on the island. Arguement 3: [[color:red:"I am Furudo Erika, the detective!!" Knox's 7th. It is forbidden for the detective to be the culprit! Someone who appeared to be Erika stated in red, that she killed Rosa, Maria, Eva, Kyrie, and Natsuhi. Knox's 10th, it is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues!]] Therefore, Erika killed those five people. [[color:red: An exception clause to Knox's 7th was mentioned in the fifth game. An exception to Knox's 7th exists in real life namely Knox's 7th only applies if the author claims that the detective is in fact the detective. The resoloution to the logic error was written by Beatrice, ]] [[color:blue: thus making her one of the authors of Dawn]][[color:red: and she acknowledged Erika as the detective using the white text.]] [[color:blue: This is sufficent to show that Erika couldn't have been acting under the exception clause. color:blue: This leads us to "Erika is the culprit." and "Erika cannot be the culprit." This contradiction can be resolved in two ways. One, they are reffering to two different people (i.e. Piece!Erika is the culprit, and Meta!Erika can't be culprit). Two, they are reffering to two different worlds (i.e. Erika is the culprit of the sixth game, and Erika cannot be the culprit of the fifth game. Thereofore the final two Red Truths of the sixth game refer to either different Erikas or more likely different worlds.]] |
| 750 | * If there were six people unaccounted for, then a Logic Error was never even at risk. If Erika knew there were more people, her blues would have been ineffective. Moreover, [[color:red: There are no more than 18 people. This applies to all games.]] The two Reds needn't necessarily be time-sensitive. While Eva-Beatrice's riddle was, there were many that explicitly weren't. Erika's red simply references how her presence boosts the initial number count by one (She can't "introduce" herself at any point but at the beginning of the game, see?) And Battler and Beato expose a part of Beatrice's heart, a little bit of the truth that supercedes all games: Even if Erika is here, the count would only be 17. |
| 751 | ** Erika factored in the possibillity of other people when she set up the logic error. "[[color:red: I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.]] That being said, if I understand you correctly you're saying "Erika is the 18th person" is the truth of ''Dawn'' and ''End''. While "There are only 17 people" is the truth of Rokkenjima-prime, right? |
| 752 | *** Close enough, yea. It was stated that defeating Erika would reveal a part of Beatrice's heart, after all, and Beatrice is a personification of the mystery. |
| 753 | |
| 754 | [[WMG: The meta-reality is total bullshit.]] |
| 755 | |
| 756 | There isn't any reason to believe that it follows reality at all, or that Beatrice is ever telling the truth. In fact, the necessity of the creation of a specific universe with its own rules to "prove" that magic is real, instead of simply doing something else magical in the real world, speaks to this. Battler could just as easily avoid all this nonsense by destroying the meta-world by telling Beatrice to fuck off behind him, what what. |
| 757 | * The Meta-World was [[color:red: created for the purpose of being with Battler]], not to convince him to accept magic. |
| 758 | |
| 759 | [[WMG: Maria is the detective]] |
| 760 | Battler and Maria are almost never separated, so Battler's testimony is 'locked in' to the Detective's objective observations for most of the story. Maria is conveniently absent when Battler meets Beatrice in the flesh in Episodes 2 and 4, and also when he inspects the bodies in the shed in Episode 1, all events that are surounded with mystery and innuendo for other reasons. |
| 761 | |
| 762 | There's precedent: Murder mystery tradition dictates that that detective be the smartest and most eccentric person in the room, and the narrator be their not-quite-so-smart sidekick. |
| 763 | |
| 764 | * [[color:red:Until Episode 5, Battler was the Detective.]] Then it was Erika, then Erika for a part of it and then no one. |
| 765 | ** [[color:blue: That Red Truth you paraphrased is refering to meta!Battler, not piece!Battler. Battler is indeed the detective in the metaworld. However, on the gameboard Maria is the detective.]] |
| 766 | *** [[color:blue: It refers to both of them. Meta-Battler controls Piece-Battler, who, as long as Battler didn't give up, never experienced anything supernatural, always had a right to look at the bodies, was never killed until the end. He represented the human side on-board and off, just like Erika.]] |
| 767 | *** [[color:blue: Dlanor wanted Battler to think that red was reffering to both Battlers, but it wasn't.]] Also, doesn't the right to examine bodies fall under "detective's authority" [[color:red:which is something that we were told Battler never had.]] Being the detective doesn't automaticly give someone "detective's authority" it simply prevents one from falsifying one's viewpoint. |
| 768 | *** When were we told Battler never had the Detective Authority? Putting that aside, his viewpoint was unfalsifiable, meaning he had some sort of Authority. Just because he never actively used it doesn't mean he never had it. Battler has the right to do all sorts of things he never invoked, like the Blue Truth before Episode 4. |
| 769 | *** Around the same time Erika revealed she didn't intend to make the detective's proclamation. Also, Battler didn't have the right to invoke the Blue Truth until Beato gave him the right to use it. |
| 770 | |
| 771 | * In the sixth game, when Erika and Maria were arguing about Beato's candy magic, Erika asked Maria to confirm that she was telling the truth in red. Dlanor claimed refusal would be a violation of Knox's 7th. [[color:blue:Since Knox's 7th goverens the actions of the detective, only the detective can violate it. In other words, Maria was the detective of the sixth game.]] |
| 772 | |
| 773 | [[WMG: The Mad Staker is...]] |
| 774 | None of the parents could do it. None of the kids could do it. None of the servants could do it. A Nanjo-Shannon alliance could ''almost'' do it. Jessica could just about do it, if you assume she managed to fake her death in "Turn of the Golden Witch". |
| 775 | |
| 776 | But aren't we overlooking someone? Someone very close to the heart of the case, someone who is verifiably alive at the time of each staking, someone with ample opportunity to do the deed, perhaps while the camera is away focusing on another character? |
| 777 | |
| 778 | [[color:red:Battler isn't a killer.]] But he makes one hell of an accomplice. |
| 779 | * Battler can't be an accomplice, he's the Detective. And there's no stakings so far in Chiru, so... |
| 780 | |
| 781 | [[WMG: Stakers and Fakers]] |
| 782 | An odd thing happened to Hideyoshi in Episode 5. In a closed room, he lay down on the bed and was run through by a demon stake. |
| 783 | |
| 784 | So it's a fake: a pretend murder to pressure Natsuhi. But... there's something ''bizzare'' about it. Why would the 'fakers' stumble across the exact same method of murder as the killer from the previous four episodes? There's nothing in the epitaph to suggest goetic stake murder: only a vague suggestion that body parts be 'gouged'. What are the odds of the 'fakes' reinventing the 'real' stakings they know nothing about? |
| 785 | |
| 786 | So. |
| 787 | |
| 788 | Somewhere there is a cardbord box. The box contains stakes (some of them cunningly halved so as to harmlessly appear to pierce a body), stage blood, stencils (for the quick printing of magic circles) and other tricks of the pseudo-witch trade. The box was either assembled by the real deal and found by the fakers, or assembled by the fakers and found by the real one. The latter sounds slighty more plausible -- it also fits the series theme of fake things become real. |
| 789 | * Why is it a fake? It can be solved the same way as the second twilight of Episode 1, or even how Natsuhi was supposed to be in the room herself - the killer was hidden somewhere in the room when Hideyoshi locked it, came out, killed him, then hid again. As in Episode 1, they didn't think to search the room, but this time if they had they would have found Natsuhi and assumed she was the killer instead! |
| 790 | |
| 791 | [[WMG:1998 is a fantasy]] |
| 792 | Ange's persecution at the hands of a vast and faceless conspiracy, her flight across the nation in the company of her idealised boyfriend-figure, all that monkeying about with bank vaults and codes and bottle letters, did not exactly so to speak entirely honestly really... happen. |
| 793 | |
| 794 | Like the man from ''An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge'', she escaped a fall that should have killed her, had many exciting adventures on the run, returned home, buried her demons and... suddenly broke out into a rash of fatal wounds. Turns out the whole adventure was a fantasy flashing before her eyes in the instant before she died. |
| 795 | |
| 796 | I'd hate to pull the trigger on this 'nuclear option', but it sure would explain a bunch. |
| 797 | |
| 798 | * Why does anything need to explain? The conspiracy is plausible, realistic, and in line with the Ushiromiya family's sordid financial business. Amakusa is hardly an idealised boyfriend-figure (especially since he probably killed her), the bank vaults and codes and bottle letters are real...and it's not all that odd for someone to survive a fall like that if they bounce off of soft canopies like that. Besides, the "everything was a dying dream" thing is cliche. |
| 799 | ** [[color:red: Dine's 19th. The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. International plottings and war politics belong in a different category of fiction — in secret-service tales, for instance. But a murder story must be kept gemütlich, so to speak. It must reflect the reader's everyday experiences, and give him a certain outlet for his own repressed desires and emotions.]] |
| 800 | *** Too bad Ange's 1998 is not a detective story, huh? |
| 801 | *** [[color:blue:VisualNovel/UminekoWhenTheyCry is a detective story.]] [[color:red:Ange's 1998 is part of VisualNovel/UminekoWhenTheyCry.]] Therefore, Ange's 1998 is part of a detective story. |
| 802 | *** Sure, it's part of Umineko, but the entirety of Umineko is not a Mystery story; it's a blend of genres. The Meta-World is not strictly Mystery, and there are multiple Fantasy scenes on the Gameboard. The thing is, by definition, 1998 doesn't qualify as Mystery because Ange's perspective isn't reliable as her journey breaks a lot of Knox and Dine rules, which, by the way, only need to apply to the Gameboard, because only the Gameboard needs to follow Mystery rules. Reality isn't bound by Narrative Causality. |
| 803 | *** [[color:red:There are mysteries that don't follow Knox or Dine.]] |
| 804 | ** The 1998 fragment came about due to the interference of Lambda and Bern, and it contains a large number of elements borrowed directly from the Higurashi game board. Isn't that an indication of fictionality? |
| 805 | |
| 806 | [[WMG: Bern and Erika never intended to trap Battler in a Logic Error.]] |
| 807 | There real intention was to show that Battler didn't understand the truth of Beato's game. The Logic Error they set up had a flaw he could have used to escape. Namely, he could have claimed his piece left the room using magic. However, we know from the fifth game that Beato's games were solvable and that magic apparently doesn't count as a valid soloution. If Battler had used magic as the soloution the game would have continued until the end, but Lambda would judge that Battler had not reached the truth of Beato's game. Thus, either returning things to how they were at the start of the fifth game, or giving Erika a chance to be the Game Master. |
| 808 | * [[color:blue: Magic cannot do things you cannot do without magic,]] so no, it would not be a valid solution. The thing is, there's really no such thing as an inescapable Logic Error, just like there's no unsolvable mystery. A Logic Error is proclaimed if the Game Master is unable to explain the trick, not when the trick is unexplainable. |
| 809 | ** Of course there's no such thing as an inescapable Logic Error, it's flat out stated that in order to escape the Game Master simply has to admit that the error exists. |
| 810 | *** Which results in death. That's not exactly what I meant by "escape". |
| 811 | *** It was only stated that the gameboard would be destroyed as a result. BATTLER's goal was not to create a coherent story, it was to show that he understood the truth of Beato's game. Admitting the logic error would have certanitly hurt his chances of doing this. However, as long as he didn't stop trying to prove he understood Beato's game he would not die. Actually, since Beato is the one who actually solved the Logic Error, it's likely that BATTLER had succeeded in proving he understood Beato's game before the Logic Error had even occurred. |
| 812 | *** And as the Gamemaster, he would suffer if the board was destroyed, just like Beato did earlier. Damaging the game damages it's owner; if it was so easy to just waltz out of a Logic Error, it wouldn't be so traumatizing to Bern and Lambda. Anyway, I would say that Battler actually PLANNED the Logic Error, and it was a bit Kinzo-style gambit to revive Beatrice by putting pressure on her. See my above theory about it. |
| 813 | |
| 814 | [[WMG: The first twilight of the sixth game could not have been accomplished without magic.]] |
| 815 | [[color:red:[Erika] rekilled [Rosa, Maria, Kyrie, Natsuhi, and Eva].]] [[color:blue:Rekill means to kill someone or something that has already been killed. Killing means making a living thing into a dead thing. Dead things are not living things. A dead thing cannot be made into a living thing without magic.]] |
| 816 | * [[color:red: Everyone...was certainly alive before I killed them.]] She took people who were "killed" by the competing lovers and "rekilled" them so they were actually dead. The Red Truth can allow for repeating fictions, since none of the Gameboards actually happened. |
| 817 | ** That red can be explained with, [[color:blue:Erika revived the victims using magic, and then rekilled them.]] If the first deaths were false in the context of the gameboard, Erika wouldn't be able to say she rekilled them in that context. |
| 818 | *** [[color:blue: Magic cannot do something that cannot be done by human means.]] So Erika could not have revived them with magic. However, the characters were "playing dead." It's a fiction nested within another fiction, so there's absolutely no problem. I think your issue is that you're interpretting the Red too literally, and don't seem to realize how many layers are at work, here. |
| 819 | *** [[color:red:Erika is human.]] Therefore, [[color:blue:even if she were to use magic to accomplish something that can only be accomplished with magic she still did it via human means.]] |
| 820 | *** Well, actually Erika was the Witch of Truth during the span of Episode 6, admittedly. |
| 821 | |
| 822 | [[WMG:Erika didn't fall off the boat, she jumped.]] |
| 823 | Bitch is crazy; she could've done it just cause, or she was suicidal over her boyfriend's betrayal. |
| 824 | |
| 825 | |
| 826 | [[WMG: All Games can be solved if everything was just a dream.]] |
| 827 | No matter what red truth you can use, if the detective was just dreaming, all episodes can be solved without magic. |
| 828 | Well, episode 1 cant, but that was not a game so... well, again, all just a bad dream. |
| 829 | |
| 830 | |
| 831 | [[WMG: Beato like acronyms]] |
| 832 | The names of each episode are Legend, Turn, Banquet, Alliance, End, Dawn, Requiem and Twilight. You get LTBAEDRT, order and then get BATTLERD (D can be another letter of another word, or be there just by mistake because if i recall right [[spoiler:Dawn was a game made by Battler.]] |
| 833 | * Banquet, end, etc, are written by Auau, not Beato. Also, it could mean [[spoiler:Battler dies]]. |
| 834 | Really?[[spoiler:, i read the manga and when lambadelta ask Battler how the game is gonna call, he say: Dawn of the golden witch, didnt remember about auau, also, at least in the manga, lambadelta also call her game end of the golden witch.]] I think i should say that [[spoiler:the game master of dawn was Battler, the first 4 game as Beato, 5 lambadelta,dont know about 7 and 8 so...]]. |
| 835 | ** If you'd read carefully, you'd know that 1 and 2 Episodes were written by Beato (or specifically - Yasu) and 3 and 4 Episodes were written by Tohya Hachijo (post-Rokkenjima Battler) |
| 836 | |
| 837 | [[WMG: None of the Game Masters know what really happened.]] |
| 838 | According to Maria's book it takes 3 cuts to slice a piece of cheese into eight pieces. But, Erika and Battler are able to figure out how to do it with one cut. The book's riddles are a metaphor for the mysteries the Game Master presents and the answers in the book represent what the Game Master believes the solutions to the mysteries to be. Therefore, the book having the wrong answer is a metaphor for the Game Master having the wrong answer. |
| 839 | * Taking the idea further, none of the answers we've been given to any of the mysteries in the individual games are correct. Of course it is possible for us to find the correct answers, just like Battler and Erika did. |
| 840 | |
| 841 | [[WMG: Erika didn't fall off the boat, she was pushed.]] |
| 842 | Erika being the GreatDetective that she is had come to the conclusion that a single [[DiabolicalMastermind mastermind]] was behind most of the major crime in Japan, and was in the middle of gathering enough evidence to bring said mastermind to justice. Unfortunately, she wasn't discreet enough and ended up being attacked because of it. |
| 843 | Who was this mastermind? It was none other then popular mystery author Toya Hachijo. Since Erika's [[NeverFoundTheBody body was never found]], Toya concluded that she was still alive, and [[GenreSavvy had gone into hiding for the time being]]. Toya wrote ''End of the Golden Witch'', and ''Dawn of the Golden Witch'' in order to taunt Erika so that she would come out of hiding. |
| 844 | |
| 845 | [[WMG: Battler was indeed the culprit of the fifth arc and the man from 19 years ago, even if the child thrown off the cliff was actually Yasu.]] |
| 846 | I cite as evidence the meta-world fact that the Beatrice of the fifth arc was trying to defend Natsuhi. If Beatrice, and by extension Yasu, was in character (as even characters in the meta-world have to be), then she would not be trying to both get revenge on Natsuhi and defend her at the same time. In addition, the only one who has any right to hold a grudge against Natsuhi is Yasu, not Shannon or Kanon, since neither of them existed at that point. |
| 847 | |
| 848 | It's also established that Battler and Shannon are a couple. If Yasu or Shannon had ever confided in Battler about their past then it's possible that Battler would have tried to get revenge on Natsuhi in order to get her to apologize to Yasu by pretending to be Yasu over the phone. It's also possible that since Natsuhi told Shannon about her favorite season, that information had also been passed on to Battler, allowing him to plant the card in her room. It's been hinted that even among normal circumstances [[spoiler:Battler was involved in the murders on Rokkenjima]]. Is it really so much of a stretch to say that he would commit murder in order to right a wrong done to the person he loves? |
| 849 | * Your theory fails to take into account that 1) Shannon and Battler are not a couple, it's Shannon/George, with Battler having forgotten their old crush, and 2) the Beatrice of EP5 isn't the one we know, but a piece representing the illusion of the witch and Natsuhi's delusions. It's not actually a person like Shannon. |
| 850 | ** 1. The fifth arc's board is stated to differ in a very fundamental way from boards 1-4, but it was never made clear exactly what that difference was. Even if Yasukashnontrice was the culprit, she has no reason to care all of a sudden more about Natsuhi than Battler. [[color:blue:I propose that the fourth arc differed in the very fundamental way that Battler remembered Shannon before the reunion on Rokkenjima, (thereby nullifying her need to make him remember her) and they talked from that time on. This and the seventh game were the only ones GM'ed by Voyager witches, and Bern searched out a piece with a huge change for hers. If Bern could find a piece where Yasu was never thrown off a cliff, it should be a piece of [[IncrediblyLamePun LambdaCake]] to find a piece with such a comparatively small change.]] |
| 851 | ** (Still OP) 2. It was never stated that the Beatrice of that board represented Natsuhi's delusions. It could have. Or it could have represented Yasu. There is no red statement denying it. |
| 852 | *** [[color:red:Natsuhi is drinking tea alone.]] Nothing prevents Yasu from being EP5's Beatrice in her other appearances, but it would be kinda inconsistent. |
| 853 | *** [[color:blue:Natsuhi had planned to have tea with Yasu. However, although she managed to steal a moment for herself, Shannon, being a servant was still busy. As such, she (and Yasutrice) was a no-show to tea that day. What was shown was Natsuhi imagining how tea would have gone had she shown up.]] |
| 854 | *** [[color:blue:The fundamental difference of the fifth game is that Kanon has his own body.]] I'm not completely sure, but I believe that Erika saw Kanon and Shannon together at least once. This can only be explained by Kanon(/Yasu) being a different person than Shannon(/Yasu) in this game. |
| 855 | |
| 856 | [[WMG: Ange is the Culprit.]] |
| 857 | |
| 858 | Yes, you read me right. Ange. You see, everyone's always been an asshole to Ange. Eva treats her like a snivelling brat, the cousins forget her, her mother was just using her to get control of Rudolf, and Maria stopped being friends with her after their fight. The only person who was ever nice to her was Battler, and because of his sin (forgetting Beatrice, causing the cascade of events that caused him not to come for six years), Ange grew up without her brother. |
| 859 | |
| 860 | She had to kill them all for the suffering she went through. Also she's kind of a petulant and evil brat. |
| 861 | |
| 862 | She faked being sick, and then stowed away in the back of the boat, then skittered around the island doing the murders and/or Bomba. Shkanon is indeed actually necessary to the plot in order to cover up the number count. It's a troll. |
| 863 | |
| 864 | So she kills everyone. She is infact the one who sent out the first two message bottles, forging Yasu's handwriting and set the bitch up (This is why Meta-Beatrice is both suicidal and wanting to hide the truth; she's a personification of this fictional martyrdom of Yasu, but she wants the truth to get to Battler). |
| 865 | |
| 866 | It was infact ANGE who hijacked Beatrice's innocent game, so no one figured out the horrible truth in the script until it was too late. Eva managed to escape, knowing the horrid truth. Yasu killed herself, since her game allowed this opportunity and she felt at fault. Battler and Ange actually hilariously collided on the way out and both of them drifted to different shores with amnesia of varying degrees. |
| 867 | |
| 868 | Eva, knowing the truth, found and raised Ange, and realizing that the girl was amnesiac and retained her sweet personality prior to becoming embittered, and seeing that she fabricated fond and warm memories of her family, decided not to tell her the truth, and raise her lovingly. But because this is the little girl who killed her precious family, resentment and hatred slipped out. Eva is a tremendously strong woman for being as genuinely loving as she was. |
| 869 | |
| 870 | Ange grew up never realizing the truth, and always yearning for her dear brother, who rises above all the other victims in her heart for some reason she can't seem to figure out despite their limited interaction. She entertains fantasies of magic, and even gains the title of "Beatrice"....why is that? |
| 871 | |
| 872 | And why...WHY, does she comment that "she did something terrible to Maria, and somehow I feel that it played a role in that tragedy"? |
| 873 | |
| 874 | If Maria had been her friend still...the tragedy would not have come to pass. |
| 875 | |
| 876 | Why can Ange, someone who wasn't on Rokkenjima, travel to 1986's Meta World? |
| 877 | |
| 878 | She was there. |
| 879 | |
| 880 | Why does Bern keep torturing Ange disproportionately? |
| 881 | |
| 882 | Because she deserves it. It wasn't a witch who spoiled Ange's relationship with Eva, it was her own subconscious, personified as the heartless monster that dresses up as a character from Onii-chan's favorite novel. It's the same reason Ange can see and interact with Erika in 1998, and why Bern/Erika keep "taking Ange's side" in a sense. |
| 883 | |
| 884 | It's why Battler decided the catbox should be closed, and Ange should move on with her life. |
| 885 | |
| 886 | It's the truth so terrible that Ange rejects it at the very end, then decides to fake her death. |
| 887 | |
| 888 | It's why Ange, prior to Battler getting through to her, decided that she could trade her life if she knew the truth. |
| 889 | |
| 890 | Ange fucking did it, and her entire personal journey was her trying to reclaim that memory, not knowing it would destroy her. Battler only wished to spare her little sister. Just as Toya felt that the memories of Battler would destroy him, Battler felt the memories would destroy the good-hearted Ange. |
| 891 | ** Game 4 (referring to the Rokkenjima of 1986): [[color:red:No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!!]] Ange would equal an 18th person. Hence, Ange did not exist on Rokkenjima on that day in 1986. |
| 892 | [[WMG: During the seventh game, Bern wasn't moving the pieces in order to hide information from Will.]] |
| 893 | When Will is first given Theatergoing authority it's mentioned that its use requires permission from the Senate. However, it's never stated that Bern actually acquired permission to give it to Will. [[color:blue:Bernakstel illegally granted Will Theatergoing Authority.]] However, [[color:blue:use of Theatergoing Authority on a subject for an extended period of time causes its use to become detectable. Bernkastel moved those piece because if Will had continued useing the Thetergoing Authority on them, the Meta!Police would have caught him, and of course he'd have no reason to hide her involvment.]] |
| 894 | |
| 895 | [[WMG: In the next Franchise/WhenTheyCry series, Ange will appear as a Voyager Witch]] |
| 896 | Or whichever terminology is used in it. Just like Higurashi did, Umineko will spawn some extra recurring characters in the next work. While Beato and Battler all always centered around their gameboard, Ange keeps traveling both within and between Fragments and meeting high-level characters, so if any character does become a Voyager, it is gotta be her. |
| 897 | |
| 898 | [[WMG: Eva did it, and I can explain why and how.]] |
| 899 | Be forewarned, there may be massive spoilers ahead. Be prepared. |
| 900 | |
| 901 | [[spoiler:It's very simple. The four sibling and their spouses solved the epitaph together. They found the gold, and there was much rejoicing. Someone, perhaps an actor brought to Rokkenjima beforehand (so as to seem real, they wouldn't believe it if one of the servants or family members was Beatrice) to play as Beatrice, and explain what they had just done, and what they inherited. Now, here is where my theory might stumble a bit. Since Rokkenjima used to be a submarine base, wouldn't it make sense that there would still be explosives? There might even been enough to destroy the mansion, along with everyone in it. Let's say, perhaps, that the bomb's explosion is as wide as one kilometer. Now, Kuwadorian is TWO kilometers from the mansion. Therefore, anyone in Kuwadorian would be able to survive the blast. Beato was willing to kill everyone on the island, should they not solve the epitaph. There is no need to explain why, since the adults already solved it, and no one was killed. The ninth twilight states that "none shall be left alive". Since the twilights seem to work off the clock, and the ninth twilight is midnight, wouldn't it make sense that the clock has something to do with the "none being left alive"? The may have been some kind of switch in a clock somewhere, which, when flipped up, would be the same as starting a countdown. When the clock hits midnight, and that switch is up, the fuse on the bombs start. However, they solved the epitaph, and no one had to die now. So, why is everyone but Eva dead...?]] |
| 902 | |
| 903 | [[spoiler:Eva, overcome with greed for the money, grabbed what she could, and flipped the switch. She escaped to Kuwadorian, perhaps on her feet, or perhaps via a tunnel in the VIP room under the mansion. Once there, she waited, and pretended to be innocent. This explains why she's the only one alive, why they only found Maria's lower jaw, and why they found no other bodies. This is supported by the fact that, when Ange goes to pay condolences to Maria, she is standing at the edge of a large crater. At least, in the anime she does. I never read Episode 4. This also explains why the shrine is missing. It's because Beato wanted to test the the bombs still worked. Feel free to poke fun at this and twist it around.]] |
| 904 | * You never read Episode 4? ...Anyway, it can't have been Eva, if only because she's the red herring culprit. The person playing Beatrice is Shannon. This is a fact; an extra person would've violated many reds and someone would've noticed an extra missing person. |
| 905 | * Even if you haven't read Episode 4, I assume that you're aware that half of what you said has been confirmed by Episode 7, but greed doesn't work as motivation here for Eva, since the bomb blows up the 10 tonnes of gold when it goes off, leaving her with less money than if she hadn't blown it up. You're also incorrect about the twilights working off the clock - they happen at different times in different games. |
| 906 | |
| 907 | [[WMG: In Alliance, the bomb detonated on the first night.]] |
| 908 | [[color:red: Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die.]] However, Battler is a person on the island. If he really had the opportunity to roam freely on October 5th, then the chance existed, however slight, that he would be able to reach Kuwadorian before the bomb went off, leading to his survival. So, in order for the red given to be certainly true, Battler must already be dead. The epitaph was probably solved early on October 4th, which led to the drastically accelerated murder timeline and the bomb mechanism being set before midnight. |
| 909 | |
| 910 | The consequences are that everything after midnight on October 4th was an illusion, beginning with Battler meeting Piece-Beatrice and including the whole next day's investigation on. Although Battler had control of his illusion-piece, he no longer had an objective viewpoint on account of being a corpse. |
| 911 | |
| 912 | Some additional clues: |
| 913 | * Will's summation for the 9th twilight - "Earth to earth, illusion to illusion. When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth." |
| 914 | * In Dawn, Battler and Erika briefly mentioned the possibility of the detective being killed off before the end of the game. |
| 915 | * In spite of all the information given in it, Battler's investigation was cut out of the anime completely, as if it were irrelevant. Ryukishi said in an interview that the anime would have fewer red herrings. |
| 916 | |
| 917 | * Your theory relies entirely on the possibility of piece-Battler doing something different than Beatrice expected. It seems clear from Game Master Battler's TIPS that Battler had to explicitly work out the whole story of Episode 6 before the game started. Beatrice should also have similarly known what was going to happen on the gameboard in Episode 4 before meta-Battler saw it play out. |
| 918 | ** EP5 firmly established that players have direct control over their pieces, even assuming that wasn't already clear by the second twilight of EP2. It'd hardly be a game if there were only one person playing. |
| 919 | ** At the second twilight of Episode 2, ''piece-Battler'' worked out what was going on first. Meta-Battler is temporarily confused and only figures out what piece-Battler is talking about after he has explained a bit of it. He most certainly wasn't directed by meta-Battler there. Hardly anything in Episode 5 is actually narrated by the detective, so there's no actual proof that anything that might be suggested by a player was really performed by the piece instead of just being shown in the magic story. Did Battler really jump out the window of Kinzo's room instead of just explaining that he could have jumped to escape the closed room? Also, practically the whole game was played before Battler started, and was replayed for him, during which time he couldn't interfere - your argument that it was confirmed in Episode 5 relies on assuming that ''Bern'' is telling the truth when she says that she made piece-Battler look smart at this part of the game or that he's acting as Lambda's piece in that part. She has no particular reason to be truthful and we have no other reason to believe it than her words, while other things like Game Master Battler's TIPS suggest they shouldn't be able to influence the game. The game doesn't need to take place on the chessboard to be a game. The game of logic and truth in the meta-world about whether a witch was involved ''has'' two players whether or not Battler can influence what's happening on the chessboard. There's no reason to believe the people in the meta-world can actually do anything but watch the real story even if the witch side can also conjure up any magic story that fits the already known facts. |
| 920 | |
| 921 | [[WMG:[[color:blue:Regardless of their relationship on Rokkenjima-prime, or in any other games Shannon and Kanon are physically different people in the first five games.]]]] |
| 922 | |
| 923 | Battler's goal in the sixth game was to prove he understood the truth of Beato's game, and he successfully did so. Battler was unable to solves the logic error. Therefore, the solution to the logic error cannot be part of the truth of Beato's game. The solution to the logic error is Shannon and Kanon being the same physical person. Therefore, Shakanon can not be part of the truth of Beato's game. |
| 924 | * This isn't quite the case. The logic error was a trap of conflicting red truths that Battler wove about himself as the game master before Erika revealed facts he'd accidentally allowed her to change. As the game master, he was aware of what actually happened in the room, but if he explained what had actually happened in that room, Erika would definitely be able to answer every mystery in his game. Because of this he chose to try to come up with a different answer instead. The solution to the logic error isn't "Shannon and Kanon being the same physical person", but "nothing said in red prevents this magic story involving Kanon freeing Battler from the logic error". Since Battler was no longer capable of directing Kanon or anyone else to solve it for him, he couldn't come up with this answer himself after he was locked in, and was restricted to what he could try himself from inside the room. Because of this, there is nothing preventing Battler already being aware of Shannon and Kanon being the same person at the start of the sixth game. |
| 925 | |
| 926 | [[WMG:[[color:blue:All of Will's explanations for the previous games are wrong.]]]] |
| 927 | Consider his explanation for the first twilight of the second game, "Illusion to Illusion. The golden truth locked the lock of illusion." [[color:red:The golden truth wasn't even introduced until the fifth game]], and neither of the golden truths that have been used have anything to do with locks. |
| 928 | * Will's explanations are mostly vague and nonsensical unless you think about them carefully, but they do provide the real truth once you look beyond the surface meaning. In the case of the first twilight of the second game, the "lock of illusion" is pretty simply interpreted as meaning that [[color:blue:the lock on the chapel door was in fact never locked between the time Maria received the envelope and the time Battler and company arrived at the chapel]]. It is never stated in red that the chapel was locked at the time that Rosa claimed to open it. Battler's arguments focused on how the key could have been removed from Maria's care to unlock it. |
| 929 | * When you take this into account and look closer at the "opening" of the chapel, we notice that both Shannon and Kanon are present.. which from Episode 7, we know to be impossible. [[color:blue:Rosa and several of the servants are lying about the chapel being locked]] - they are "locking the lock of illusion". |
| 930 | * When you consider that the most likely meaning of the midnight meeting with Beatrice is that the adults were shown several gold ingots and acknowledging the person who found them as having solved the epitaph, we can guess that [[color:blue:Rosa and the servants are lying because of the gold]]. This is what Will means by Golden Truth in this instance. [[color:blue:"The gold truth locks the lock of illusions" means "Because of the gold, Rosa and the servants lied about the chapel door being locked."]] |
| 931 | ** So then Will's use of the term "gold truth" was simply a pun? |
| 932 | ** Not exactly a pun, more like a metaphor. It's the "truth" that occurs when everyone agrees that it's what happened, brought about by the promise of gold. |
| 933 | ** It may not even have to be that. The Golden Truth is only usable by the game master, the one who understands the whole truth behind Beato's game. In that sense, any "truth" pertaining to the game that is used for an illusion can apply. It doesn't mean to literally use the golden truth, but that the game master's "truth" is sealing the illusion. It can also be interpretted a number of other ways. The most important part about Will's statements is not actually the explanation, but what precedes it. Pay attention to when he says "illusion to illusion" and when he says "earth to earth". Go back to those murders during the twilights of the previous games. If the foreshadowing clicks, I guarantee your jaw will drop. It took me a while to notice some of them. |
| 934 | ** Another plausible reading for that scene is that the adults were organizing a Halloween party, and were all agreeing to acknowledge [[spoiler:Shannon in costume]] as the real Beatrice for Maria's sake. After the first twilight, no matter who the culprit was, Beatrice could easily reseal the key into the envelope with the Head Ring and put that in Maria's handbag. This way Maria ''received it'' and until Rosa unsealed it, it ''passed through no one's hands''. |
| 935 | |
| 936 | [[WMG:[[color:red:"Your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was magic!!"]]]] |
| 937 | [[color:blue:is a vacusous truth.]] |
| 938 | |
| 939 | This statement was made to MARIA. Thus the first sentence can be replaced with [[color:red:MARIA's so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!!]] However, the trick that was performed in that scence was ''Beato's'' candy magic, not MARIA's. Furthermore, no evidence exists that MARIA has a candy magic trick of her own. Thus, by Knox's 8th we can determine that "Your so-called candy magic" refers to an empty class, and thus Erika can say whatever she wants about it and still produce Red Truth. |
| 940 | As for the second sentence, the statements "[[color:red: The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria]]" and "[[color:red:I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice.]]" prove that Beatrice is a real witch and thus the "fake witch calling herself Beatrice" doesn't exist. |
| 941 | * Beatrice specifically says that nothing said in red can be used to prove the existence of magic, since it would be circular logic. Battler would have no possible move to counter it, but he wouldn't have been convinced, so he'd just have refused to accept it and the game would become a draw. The bits you quote as evidence of the existence of the "witch" Beatrice literally ''have'' to have a different interpretation than there being a real witch on the gameboard or Beatrice wouldn't have been able to say them at all. |
| 942 | ** Being a witch doesn't automatically mean one can use magic or that magic exists. |
| 943 | ** You're only suggesting then that Yasu/Beatrice can use the title of witch, but that it doesn't mean anything, and doesn't actually affect anything else in the story? |
| 944 | ** I would say that Yasu is able to use the title of witch because she solved the epitaph, after all Beatrice Castiglioni was the person the title Golden Witch was first applied to and she didn't have magical powers. |
| 945 | |
| 946 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:The in-universe author of ''Banquet of the Golden Witch'' wrote it as a fantasy story, but it was later retconned into a mystery story.]]]] |
| 947 | When Will says "No falsehoods in their final moments as told." He is referring to the author's original intention. |
| 948 | |
| 949 | [[WMG: In the candy magic battle between Erika and MARIA, the Eiserne Jungfrau weren't obligated to recognize Sakutaro's diplomatic immunity.]] |
| 950 | Sakutarou's diplomatic immunity protects him from members of the Mariage Sorciere and those who have contracts with them. The members of the Eiserne Jungfrau are not members of the Mariage Sorciere nor do they have contracts with it. However, as shown they found the candy magic battle to be pointless, and thus when given an opportunity to get out of it did so. |
| 951 | * Well, technically speaking, yes, but Dlanor is friends with Virgilia, and is honorable enough to respect the spirit of the law rather than the cold letter. |
| 952 | |
| 953 | [[WMG: The love duel was originally written as part of ''Land of the Golden Witch''.]] |
| 954 | ''Land of the Golden Witch'' was suppose to be the third game, but was scrapped due to being to difficult. From a fantasy perspective it makes no sense for Shannon and Kanon to have the love duel in the sixth game when they completely rejected the idea that they were furniture in the fourth game. |
| 955 | |
| 956 | [[WMG: Shannon and Kanon experience the games in a different order then they are played.]] |
| 957 | From their perspective ''Dawn of the Golden Witch'' takes place before ''Alliance of the Golden Witch''. |
| 958 | |
| 959 | [[WMG: The love duel is actually meant to show that Shakanon is false during Beato's games.]] |
| 960 | BATTLER's goal in the sixth game is to show that he understands Beato's game. The love dual is a fantastic metaphor for Shannon and Kanon being the same person physically and being torn between Jessica and George. However, the fantasy we are shown makes no sense in the context of the previous games. For example, Shannon and Kanon declared themselves to be human in the fourth game, since they retain their memories between games it doesn't make sense for them to consider themselves furniture in the sixth game. Also, The butterfly brooch just happens to summon the same demons Jessica had summoned for Mother's Day using Kinzo's grimoire, not only is that a rather contrived coincidence, but Jessica doesn't appear to recognize them at all. In short, even if magic exists there is no way the fantasy we were shown could have happened. Since the fantasy is impossible in the context of Beato's game, we can assume that its mundane counterpart is likewise impossible. Therefore, Shakanon is false. |
| 961 | * You realize the Extra TIPS aren't canon...right? Furthermore, the fantasy Love Duel makes perfect sense, since EP4 and EP6 are TWO DIFFERENT UNIVERSES. You haven't raised a single point against Shkanon whatsoever. |
| 962 | ** Has Ryukishi 07 stated that the Extra tips aren't canon? If he hasn't then it's a matter of opinion whether they're canon or not. If he has, I invoke DeathOfTheAuthor. Also, one of the fantasy premises is that Shannon and Kanon retain their memories between games, thus it doesn't matter that they take place in different universes. |
| 963 | *** Death of the Author is a pretty terrible excuse and I'm not going to accept it when the series makes a big point about trying to understand the intentions of the author. As for the canonicity of the Extra TIPS, it's pretty obvious they're not universally canon when we have shit like Beatrice using magic to switch around Parents Day presents at their houses where Yasu can't access them, etcetera. Moreover, Jessica doesn't remember meeting Zepar and Furfur. As for Shannon's and Kanon's memories, this isn't consistent in absolutely every single game; for example, they do not possess special memories in EP5, and other characters exhibit Meta-knowledge in other episodes (such as absolutely everyone in EP8, or Eva drawing on memories of the future in EP6). |
| 964 | *** I'll concede the point regarding death of the author. By Parents Day you are referring to the "Labor Thanksgiving Day Gifts" tip right? If so, [[color:blue:magic exists and can do things that can't be accomplished by mundane means.]] Or, [[color:red: Knox's 9th.It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard.]] Why should that fantasy be treated differently from any other fantasy? Jessica not remembering meeting Zepar and Furfur is part of my point. I don't think we say enough of Shannon and Kanon in episode 5 to judge whether they had any past memories or not. As for the other characters, [[color:red: This is part of the Franchise/WhenTheyCry series.]]As such, I submit that things we know about how the multiverse works in Higurashi can automatically be applied to Umineko. In particular it is possible for ordinary people to remember events in other universes. Furthermore, Shannon and Kanon's consistent ability to remember previous arcs shows that in that aspect they aren't ordinary people. |
| 965 | *** [[color:red:magic cannot do things that cannot be accomplished without magic,]] according to the Territory Lord himself. Moreover, Shannon and Kanon obviously aren't ordinary people; because they're the same individual as Beatrice. They exhibit special knowledge only because she is the author, and they are her self-inserts into the story. This is is also why they're present in the EP1 tea party, which consisted of the survivors and the culprit. Moreover, trying to use Higurashi logic won't work here; everyone pretty much acknowledges things as a game or a story when they get meta; this isn't a case of equally real universes trading information, and even if it was, it's certainly suspicious that no one uses this information to...DO anything. The fact that no aspect of Mother's Day Extra TIPS are not acknowledged in the actual sixth episode is only evidence that the former is non-canon, unless you're going to forward the preposterous idea that some sidestory is more canonical than one of the main events of one of the main episodes. |
| 966 | *** Is it completely clear what "layer" the Territory Lord is on? Because if he's simply a character in a message bottle or forgery it could still be possible for magic to exist in the "real world" or in message bottles/forgeries written by a different author. However, I'll concede the point about the love duel. As for whether the extra tips are canon. In episode 5, Dlanor says pieces can't act out of character. Given this it might be best to interpret the Mother's Day tip as meaning "''If'' it was possible to summon demons, then Jessica would do so in order to give her mom a Mother's Day gift, which would lead to the events described." |
| 967 | *** The Territory Lord is said to exist on a higher plane than every other Meta-character, since he knows the truth about everything on the gameboard, so at the very least, he's beyond everything of 1986. As for the "pieces acting in character" thing, the fact that Bern can depict Battler as a cold-blooded murderer is probably more about believability more than a hard and fast rule. A writer can put down whatever they want, but if they want people to swallow what they're feeding, it has to seem legit. |
| 968 | *** To be fair, Meta!Battler did accuse Piece!Battler of being the culprit of the fifth game. |
| 969 | *** Yea, which is completely irrelevant to my point; there's no realistic way Battler could be the culprit if you take into account his characterization and literary purpose, but it was believable that he might be if you stretch your brain enough, therefore it's possible to write him as one despite the fact that murder is not possible for Battler otherwise. |
| 970 | *** After reading "Forgery No. XXX", I think the "pieces have to act in character" rule goes by how the author and/or Game Master thinks they would behave. For example, Bernkastel believes Battler could realistically be a cold blooded killer, but isn't necessarily correct |
| 971 | |
| 972 | [[WMG:Yasu isn't the only person who uses the Beato identity on the gameboard.]] |
| 973 | During the sixth game it's stated that Chick!Beato and Elder!Beato are to halves of the same whole. However, only Chick!Beato participates in the Love Dual. Furthermore, near the end of episode 1 Bern claims that thinking of Beato as a single person is a mistake. Furthermore, two Beatos talk to each in the fourth game, and this might have been witnessed by Battler. |
| 974 | * The Fourth game was the conversation between Piece and Meta Beato; Battler did not witness it. Elder!Beato of EP6 is heavily implied, if not outright stated to be, the personification of the ghost stories and legends about Beatrice; the phantom that pulls tricks in the night and is blamed for creepy situations. She's not represented by a person at all. |
| 975 | |
| 976 | [[WMG: The rules Dlanor gives are what (Touya thinks) Yasu thinks Knox's rules are.]] |
| 977 | In episode 2 Beato says, "Hmm. No secret passage exists that you all do not know of. Was it Knox, or was it Van Dine? It seems that in mystery novels, there must not be hidden passages, no matter what. I also follow that etiquette." While this indicates she follows Knox's 3rd it also shows she isn't 100% certain about the contents of Knox and Dine's rules. This also explains why they aren't the same as they are in our world, but for the most part are pretty close. |
| 978 | * I'm pretty sure that Beatrice was pretending to not be sure because of her witch persona. In reality she's an avid mystery nut. |
| 979 | |
| 980 | [[WMG: Okonogi Tetsuro is a lot more than just a side character]] |
| 981 | |
| 982 | In fact, it is the same Okonogi Tetsuro from Higurashi, which is not fiction to Umineko as it was hinted in episode 1. In fact, the universe in which the Hinamizawa incident resolved without any people dying is the same universe in which Umineko takes place (and will probably resolve in happily). If Higurashi really is a work of fiction presented within Umineko, then it either shares nothing but the title with 'our' Higurashi, or it actually is the very Higurashi we had read, and is actually an account of the Hinamizawa events written down by Okonogi as part of a [[Xanatos Gambit]] in order to make people believe it's all fiction. The only way to explain this is by considering Okonogi to be a Voyager Sorcerer, who expirienced all the kakera of Higurashi and Umineko, and is dead bent on rescuing at least one kakera from the occurence of ''every single When They Cry'' murder-party. Meta!Okonogi and Piece!Okonogi are actually the same entity, and he, alongside with Tohya/Aurora/Hanyuu is one of the few entities who can actually 'sneak' themselves into the gameboards of ''When They Cry'' and masquerade as pieces. Herr Okonogi is there to save the day, while his diametric opposite, Fräulein Hachijo is a thing that is ready to prostitute the feelings, lives and integrity of everything else for personal entertainment. But before I continue, let me elaborate on the meta-levels: |
| 983 | |
| 984 | ''[Nightmarish infinity of meta-levels stacked like layers of cake] ⊃ Rokkenjima Prime ⊃ Alliace/Dawn!1998 (meta-3) ⊃ Featherine's study (second meta-world floor) ⊃ Meta-world (first meta-world floor) ⊃ Gameboard Rokkenjima (ground floor) ⊃ [Infinity of antonymofmeta-levels]'' |
| 985 | |
| 986 | Basically, what we have here is an analysis of the meta "cake" in Umineko, in which every layer is a gameboard to its hierarchical superior. Note that horizontal branching of meta-levels is also possible, while not depicted. This actually makes for an interesting situation where Bern's constant breaking of the fourth wall is actually justified because 龍騎士07 actually attempted to write our reality into the layered reality of ''When They Cry'', what is, going by same logic as from above, actually a [[Xanatos Gambit]] he pulled in order to trick us into thinking that he isn't a Voyager Sorcerer (that he probably is), and that the ''When They Cry'' series aren't actually his memoires (which they probably are). |
| 987 | |
| 988 | Now excuse me, I have to rest because I think I just short-circuited my brain. |
| 989 | * Welp, it's canon to me. |
| 990 | |
| 991 | [[WMG: Battler knew what he was doing the entire time in Episode 6]] |
| 992 | He desperately wanted to revive Beatrice, however, she was not the same person. No matter how much he wished, the Beatrice he loved would never come back. Eventually, he locked himself away in a room. The only way to get him out was to solve an impossible riddle, Beatrice solved it. And the two were reunited. |
| 993 | Now tell me, am I talking about Battler, or Kinzo? |
| 994 | * This theory is already up here... |
| 995 | |
| 996 | [[WMG: [[color:blue:When Kanon's death was declared in red during the third and fourth games he was physically dead.]]]] |
| 997 | In the second game we're simply told [[color:red:Kanon was killed in this room.]] Which leaves room for tricks like Kanon died, but Yoshiya or Yasu is still alive. |
| 998 | However in the third game we're told that [[color:red:6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!]] Thus, Kanon must be dead in the same way the other five are dead. (Note that there aren't any clues that would suggest Gohda's identity can be discarded). |
| 999 | Likewise, in the fourth game we're told Kanon is the ninth victim. |
| 1000 | * [[color:blue:Kanon or Shannon being dead only means that those personalities are dead. There is precedent for this wherein many meta-characters refer to 'death' as merely being bored of playing their parts, and that they can always come back from death if their boredom ends. This is most prevalent in EP6, the episode with the most Shkanon hints and mostly focusing on the nature of Beatrice's identity and the meaning of her thousand years.]] |
| 1001 | ** It doesn't makes sense for two different definitions of "dead" to be used in a single statement. |
| 1002 | |
| 1003 | [[WMG: The Witch's Epitaph is fully functional magical ritual.]] |
| 1004 | Furthermore, if successfully performed it will work regardless of whether or not Battler believes in magic. The person(s) trying to perform it are simply doing it wrong. The phrases "At the [nth] Twilight. . ." refer to the passage of time. In other words it takes ten days to perform, one simply cannot perform it in two. |
| 1005 | * I wouldn't put it past Kinzo. |
| 1006 | |
| 1007 | [[WMG: When Toya Hachijo wrote ''End'' and ''Dawn'' she was rushing to meet a deadline.]] |
| 1008 | This is the reason ''End'' ends before the third twilight, and that Kanon is the victim of most of the twilights in ''Dawn'' |
| 1009 | * Or she wrote everything fully, but our reading of it is interrupted because Erika already solves it and/or calls out a Logic Error. |
| 1010 | |
| 1011 | [[WMG: Ryushiki07 is well aware of the UsefulNotes/TheBechdelTest and intentionally wrote a story that it would be difficult to apply it to.]] |
| 1012 | Let's list the things required for UsefulNotes/TheBechdelTest: |
| 1013 | * Two female characters. |
| 1014 | ** Between one and five characters, depending on how they're counted, are of AmbiguousGender. |
| 1015 | ** There is sometimes an additional requirement that they have names. Four characters have numbers instead of names. |
| 1016 | ** There could be said to be an additional requirement that the characters have to exist. Many characters may or may not exist, and one definitely does not. |
| 1017 | * Who have a conversation. |
| 1018 | ** Numerous conversations happen without being witnessed by the detective. There could be said to be a requirement that the conversation have definitely happened. |
| 1019 | ** Some conversations are actually duels or abuse. Do these count? |
| 1020 | ** Some conversations start between female characters, but are later joined by a male character. |
| 1021 | * That is not about men. |
| 1022 | ** See first point. Conversations about [[spoiler:Shannon, Beato, Yasu, or Lion]] may not count. Conversations about [[spoiler:Kanon, Yasu, or Lion]] may count. |
| 1023 | ** See second point. In most games, a conversation might not count if a man (Battler/Willard) is not within earshot. |
| 1024 | |
| 1025 | [[WMG: If Ange and Maria had been born earlier they would have been LoveInterests of Yasu.]] |
| 1026 | (S)he did fall in love with all of the other cousins after all. |
| 1027 | |
| 1028 | [[WMG: Ryukishi07 deliberately wrote Umineko in a way that would allow fans to easily [[FanonDiscontinuity disregard parts they don't like]].]] |
| 1029 | In universe, the game boards after the first two games are fanfiction based on the original two message bottles. And there's no guarantee that Ange's world and the Meta world are any more real then the game boards. |
| 1030 | |
| 1031 | [[WMG: Rosa suffers from Bipolar disorder.]] |
| 1032 | It would explain a whole lot. Any woman's going to be a mess if her fiance/boyfriend knocked her up then left, but Rosa's behavior goes beyond that. She experiences some pretty violent mood swings, going from an [[GoodParents incredibly sweet mother]] to the [[AbusiveParent mother from hell]] in half a second. She could have Bipolar disorder going undiagnosed. |
| 1033 | * More likely Borderline Personality Disorder, from your description. |
| 1034 | ** Ah, good point. |
| 1035 | |
| 1036 | [[WMG: Ronove's and Virgilia's roles should actually be filled by Shannon and Kanon, not Genji and Kumasawa.]] |
| 1037 | The second Toya Hachijo assigns Ronove and Virgilia's roles to Genji and Kumasawa, he completely misunderstands Beatrice's identity. That's because the true mentors to Beatrice were not Genji and Kumasawa, but Shannon and Kanon, and Beatrice was not [[spoiler:Shannon]], but Jessica. By misunderstanding who Beatrice's mentors were, Hachijo shifted the entire identity of Beatrice to the wrong person and disguised the true main conflict of Umineko. |
| 1038 | |
| 1039 | Now, I'll tell you a story. A story of two lonely young girls who just wanted to find happiness. Our story begins on Rokkenjima, not in the year 1967, which is the year in which Beatrice and Kinzo had their conversation and is the only one referred to by year, but the next year, 1968. [[color:blue:For it was in the year 1968, and not 1967, in which Rosa and Beatrice Ushiromiya made their ill-fated escape from Kuwadorian.]] The child left was taken by Kinzo and given to Natsuhi. It is here that Hachijo makes her second fatal mistake by assuming that Natsuhi [[spoiler:shoved the servant and child off a cliff]], and that if she hadn't, then the result would have been a world in which Lion and Jessica both lived happily together. [[color:blue:Such a world was never possible because the Rokkenjima that the message bottles tell of is in fact the world in which Natsuhi took care of the child and raised her into Jessica.]] |
| 1040 | |
| 1041 | [[color:blue:Sayo, in the meantime, grew up at the Fukuin house until she was put into the service of the Ushiromiya family as a young girl and became Shannon. Being incredibly [[ShrinkingViolet shy and self-effacing]], her time in the Fukuin house was very lonely, and she had very few friends. As a young girl, she created [[spoiler:Yoshiya]] as an ImaginaryFriend for her to take care of.]] That gave her a self-esteem boost and helped to ease her loneliness. [[spoiler:Yoshiya]] also helped to reassure her during her first few years serving the Ushiromiya family. During this time, he was not a servant himself, and merely an ImaginaryFriend. This also solves a small plot hole - namely, [[spoiler:Kanon]] existing - even just to Shannon - before he should. In Hachijo's telling, Shannon [[spoiler:creates Kanon]] at (and even possibly a little after) the time that [[spoiler:she releases the pain that she was suffering to Beatrice]], for which the mirror is a metaphor. [[color:blue:However, [[spoiler:Kanon]] appears during her conversation where Beatrice is trying to convince her to smash the mirror - before she has actually decided to. This is an impossibility that Hachijo overlooked, and it is an important key to the truth.]] |
| 1042 | |
| 1043 | Jessica and Shannon were very close. Friends almost to the point of being sisters, and so eventually, Shannon was able to substitute being with Jessica for being with [[spoiler:Yoshiya]]. However, though his existence was faint, Shannon was still able to call upon him to comfort her whenever stress was threatening to overwhelm her. |
| 1044 | |
| 1045 | However, Kinzo hadn't had how awry things went with [[spoiler:Yasu]] to teach him how badly he had screwed up. Although keeping [[spoiler:Yasu]] away from Kinzo so that he wouldn't treat her the same way he had treated Beatrice Ushiromiya was a good idea of Hachijo's, it never actually happened. [[color:blue:In fact, the fact that he was always left with a daughter of the last Beatrice who was always raised by him (with Jessica at a distance, but still) just led him to even more obsessively follow his ReincarnationRomance fantasies. Even though he loved Beatrice, he came to believe that he had a ''right'' to her, no matter the age. And so, starting when Jessica was still relatively young (long before Battler stopped coming to the island), he would have Jessica dress up in Beatrice's dress, and you can fill in the rest.]] |
| 1046 | |
| 1047 | [[color:blue:Krauss and Natsuhi did not know. The servants (Genji in particular) kept it a secret from them, and whenever Kinzo talked about Beatrice (the servants did their best to make sure it wasn't when Jessica was around), they chalked it up to his senility and insanity.]] Not that the servants didn't have a problem with it, of course, but Genji was obedient to Kinzo's whims, and none of the other servants were willing to say anything if Genji didn't - Genji being the most senior. All of them, however, at least tried to make things less painful for Jessica. That was... difficult, for good reason. [[color:blue:However, the one who was best at calming Jessica and helping her to cope was, without question, Shannon.]] Jessica trusted Shannon, and Shannon knew a way to keep her calm. After all, it was Shannon who originally came up with "creating another self within yourself," not Jessica. |
| 1048 | |
| 1049 | [[color:blue:Shannon encouraged Jessica to become Beatrice before Kinzo, for that was what Kinzo wanted. That make things move quickly, with a minimum of pain for everyone. However, any other time, she was to be Jessica, a girl who would smile and do goofy things. She was to behave completely like a normal girl in front of her parents and in school.]] To help Beatrice to understand, Shannon very gently introduced her to [[spoiler:Yoshiya]]. Although at first, when Beatrice and [[spoiler:Yoshiya]] talked, [[spoiler:Shannon would dress up]], it didn't take long for Beatrice to understand [[spoiler:Yoshiya]]'s existence and copy it within herself. However, the circumstances of [[spoiler:Yoshiya]]'s and [[spoiler:Beatrice]]'s births were very different. [[color:blue:Whereas [[spoiler:Yoshiya]] was created simply as a companion, and thus Shannon was always aware of him and could have [[spoiler:Yoshiya]] disappear completely at will, Beatrice was created as a way to isolate pain. She and Jessica did not communicate, and Jessica had no general awareness of Beatrice's existence after her birth.]] |
| 1050 | |
| 1051 | [[color:blue:Shannon was even more of a big sister to Beatrice than she was to Jessica.]] She and Jessica were very similar ages and rather like twin sisters. However, Beatrice, created in the midst of pain and confusion, was not the most emotionally well-developed, and was far more like a [[TheCaretaker dependent younger sister]] to Shannon. [[spoiler:Yoshiya]], then, was almost like an older brother. She would cry onto their shoulders and beg them for hugs and reassurance. [[color:blue:Eventually, Beatrice was able to expand from the concept of her own existence, with a little bit of help from Shannon, to create her own magical world to entertain herself when she was on her own.]] After all, if Kinzo could see multiple beings within her, and she could see multiple beings within Shannon, then why should she believe that there weren't multiple beings inside of all sorts of things? |
| 1052 | |
| 1053 | In trying to pretend that she was, in fact, Beatrice, Jessitrice learned to nod along and agree with whatever Kinzo said as he ranted about their past together. Because of this, she began to incorporate aspects of both Beatrice Castiglioni and Beatrice Ushiromiya into her own life story in an ad hoc, jigsaw puzzle-ish manner. [[color:blue:''This'' is the true reason why the Beatrice of the message bottles incorporates all three Beatrices - not as some sort of confusing gambit to give hints as to her family history, but because ''this was the way she actually thought.'']] |
| 1054 | |
| 1055 | [[spoiler:Shannon]] really did fall head-over-heels for Battler, as did [[spoiler:Beatrice]], but that does not connect in the way that the audience is lead to believe. [[spoiler:Beatrice]], in fact, only met Battler once, under the guise of Jessica. She quite liked him. He was very nice, if a little weird. However, one time is not enough to build an infatuation off of. [[spoiler:Shannon]], on the other hand, loved Battler and would not stop talking about him with Jessica and Beatrice. While Jessica liked to laugh it off and never thought much of it, [[spoiler:Shannon]]'s gushing formed most of what Beatrice knew about Battler. That combined with her one time meeting with him, and especially his "coming back on a white horse" remark led her to build him up into a [[spoiler:PrinceCharming]] kind of figure, to an extent that [[spoiler:Shannon]] knew him too well to do, even though she was hopelessly in love with him. |
| 1056 | * [[color:red:Jossed by Will, who understood The Truth.]] |
| 1057 | ** [[color:red:Did Will ever state that [[spoiler:Shannon/Kanon]] was the culprit? No. That may be the truth that you believe, but Battler himself stated that multiple truths can exist. You just need to accept the confines of the general rules. I am offering an alternate solution.]] [[color:blue:If you wish to say that it isn't right because it doesn't explain something, that's fine, but otherwise, you are going against the spirit of the story.]] |
| 1058 | *** [[color:red:He does, however, make it abundantly clear that "Yasu" is the culprit, by phrasing riddles in ways only she can satisfy, and that she is giving a "culprit's confession."]] Mind you, the culprit of the Gameboards, and the culprit of the real world are [[color:red:not the same thing]]. It should also be noted that the year Rosa met Beatrice is stated in red. You also make a mistake in interpreting a scene in Episode 2; the point where Shannon breaks the mirror is several years after the point where the love for Battler is forced onto Beatrice and Kanon is created; there is no impossibility there. All the rest of this is stuff that is totally and completely made up, without a single bit of in-text support. |
| 1059 | *** [[color:blue:That is one potential solution,]] unless you can come up with one particular riddle that Jessica absolutely cannot be the culprit for. [[color:blue:Keep in mind also that this theory allows for Shannon to still be an accomplice (as indeed she was). Indeed, Shannon was, in fact, the one to write the second message bottle (Jessitrice wrote the first), which could, in fact give her claim to being more than an accomplice and giving ''a'' culprit's confession without being either ''the'' culprit or Beatrice.]] According to the explanation you accept, Kanon is [[spoiler:created]] around two to three years before the Rokkenjima incident (That being when he came to the island). There is no "several years later" for the mirror incident to occur. [[color:blue:And there is plenty of in-text support depending on your interpretation of the story,]] [[color:red:and it is clear that I am interpreting it differently from you.]] [[color:blue:However, the fact that you interpret the story differently, and thus don't see the support, does not change the support being there]] (If you'd like, I can elaborate, but for the sake of brevity, I'll leave that there). [[color:red:As for your assertion about 1967, it is not true. The VN only states the conversation with Kinzo as being in 1967. The year of the encounter with Rosa is not given in red or any other color. Rosa herself says that she isn't certain what year it was.]] [[color:blue:A one year slip is certainly a possibility.]] [[color:red:The anime did throw this line in red with the Rosa encounter scene.]] [[color:blue:However, that can easily be chalked up to AdaptationDecay. My theory is based upon the original material.]] |
| 1060 | *** 1967 being the year is stated twice in red truth in the third sound novel. In addition, if Jessica was Yasu, there would be no need for the epitaph, but there it is. |
| 1061 | |
| 1062 | [[WMG: There is a subway system under Rokkenjima]] |
| 1063 | While I can't say how or why Kinzo had his own train, quite a few rules could be circumvented if there was an underground subway station connection to one of the other islands in the Izu archipelago or the mainland. |
| 1064 | The people who have gone missing are abducted and put on a train, possibly to be killed elsewhere. |
| 1065 | [[color:red:"There are no more than seventeen people on this island"]] was lowered from eighteen when it was declared Kinzo was dead. A train car full of fresh {{Mooks}}, possibly dressed as goat-headed butlers, was waiting ''underneath'' the island to fill in for the non-living persons and stake people. |
| 1066 | |
| 1067 | Also, [[http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2456/eatfresh.png guess what's inside]] [[http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3088/undergroundrailroad.png the arc.nsa file?]] [[note]]Yes, I know subway can also refer to a short tunnel designed for walking, but considering how often [[ExactWords semantics]] are argued in this game, I think it's worth considering.[[/note]] |
| 1068 | * Finally, [[http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/84/destinationtroll.jpg here's exactly how the fourth game ended.]] |
| 1069 | ** [[SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome That was fucking awesome.]] [[SugarWiki/FunnyMoments I laughed my ass off.]] |
| 1070 | * No connection to other islands, but the subways are confirmed as of episode 4 and explained in episode 7. |
| 1071 | |
| 1072 | [[WMG:Explaining [[color:red:"Kanon died in this room!"]]]] |
| 1073 | Simple, really. It never says when he dies. So [[spoiler:Sh]]kanon murders Jessica, leaves the room, goes off and commits all of the other murders, and then happens to be in that room [[spoiler:when the bomb goes off.]] Does not even require the dropping of personality theory. Multiple personalities to the death. If you assume that Genji and Gohda are in on it, the murders of Nanjo and Kumasawa can also be by him, and Shannon and the web are just a fallacy to magically explain him leaving the room and bringing the corpses with him. |
| 1074 | * ...Um...Jossed by [[color:red:Shannon being dead in Natsuhi's bedroom]] |
| 1075 | ** (OP here) Not at all. Kanon and Shannon can both 'die' by red at separate times. After all, she lives on after Kanon goes poof in the closet in EP6. |
| 1076 | |
| 1077 | [[WMG:Yasu survived]] |
| 1078 | When Beatrice committed suicide, this was actually Yasu leaving all personalities behind and really becoming Yasu. Battler diving after him/her was him trying to stop him/her and loosing his memories afterwards, when the boat capsized. They drifted away in different directions and Yasu eventually ended up in/went back to the Fukuin House, where s/he staid and took care of the kids. When Battler saw him/her again, he accepted his memories again. I want a happy ending for them! |
| 1079 | |
| 1080 | [[WMG: A Voyager who's soul grows faint does not die. Rather, it's The CantRefuseTheCallAnymore moment.]] |
| 1081 | The TIP describing the nature of Voyager's says that if they lose their sense of self they will grow faint and become like seaweed between the Kakera and eventually lost. It also says that the end of their journey is towards becoming a creator, a destiny which they fear. Losing themselves in this way is not a failure in their journey, but rather a means of neutralizing their ego to prevent a GodIsEvil scenario in their created universe. The Voyager's who know this in turn fear the prospect of becoming, if not TrueNeutral, at least less fickle and arrogant. |
| 1082 | |
| 1083 | [[WMG: The Battler Daisuke Ono voices in EP 5 is not Battler]] |
| 1084 | But the Black Battler that was introduced in OMK Cross and Forgery No. XXXX. Since EP 5 would have been the start of the Battler-culprit theory in-series, it would make sense that the newly-born Black Battler would begin with a form as weak as a voice. By the end of EP 8, Black Battler had grown enough in power through forgeries to be granted a physical appearance in Bern's game. |
| 1085 | |
| 1086 | [[WMG: Maria deliberately provokes her mother to manipulate her.]] |
| 1087 | When there's something Maria wants, she escalates her disobedience and irritating behaviors until her mother lashes out violently enough to regret it. Then Rosa will soothe their relationship with displays of affection, rewarding her behavior. This isn't to excuse Rosa's abuse, but Maria knows the pattern well enough to exploit it, and clever enough to pick her battles, limiting them to when she's willing to suffer the punishment for it. But Rosa never learns; every time, she will lose her cool, letting her child pull her strings and control her. |
| 1088 | |
| 1089 | [[WMG: Kinzo's life was a Xanatos/Thanatos Gambit]] |
| 1090 | No matter how high the stakes, it was always a win-win gamble, because he never valued anything he had. Back when all he had was a duty he never wanted to a family he didn't care about and a marriage to a wife he didn't love, he didn't have a problem offering everything he could ever achieve and all the heirs he could ever birth. At worst, he'd fail and the obligation would be off his shoulders, at best he could meet that obligation in a way guaranteed to spite them all. So he sought out the biggest gambles his entire life, not really caring whether they paid off. He didn't count on falling for Beatrice and her becoming the only stakes worth winning in the end. |
| 1091 | |
| 1092 | [[WMG: Fantasy or mystery is the question. [[MathematiciansAnswer The answer is "yes"]].]] |
| 1093 | If the premise is an xor statement, you can't have a complete solution without non-contradictory propositional chains from both conditions to the same conclusion. All superposed states that merge into the same consistent history are true. This is how magic works in this {{Verse}}; it can only be performed when a set of unobserved conditions will result in the same outcome. |
| 1094 | |
| 1095 | [[WMG: Knox's laws do not apply to every game.]] |
| 1096 | Because [[spoiler: Erica]] Violates Both Knox's first and Sixth over the Course of the Sixth game Because according to Knox's first the Killer Must Be Introduced in the first part of the story! Furthermore According To Knox's sixth The detecive Can Not Be The Murderer However She [[spoiler: Beheads The Survivors, Traping Battler In the Logic Error]] Thus Violating 2 Of Knox's Ten Laws! |
| 1097 | ** Not quite, in the sixth game, it is a plot point that she ''doesn't'' actually claim the detective authority, specifically so she could subvert Knox's 7th (No Sudden Intuition or Accidents is 6th) and trap Battler in the logic error) so she's allowed to be a culprit too (Since this isn't Van Dine, there's no required Detective). And regarding Knox's 1st: [[spoiler: Technically the man from 19 years ''was'' introduced in the first episode]] even if his existence could have been better hinted in the question arcs. The 5th and 6th games were supposed to adhere to Knox's rules by design, but Erika screwed it up on purpose. As for the other games, as long as the [[spoiler: Battler-Culprit Theory]] isn't applied, they technically fit too (since the fantasy scenes aren't "what actually happened" and Knox's 9th (in Umineko's Decalogue which is slightly different from the real one) permits people to lie (about the not-quite closed rooms). However, it is probably arguable that Umineko's version of Knox's 10th: "It is forbidden for a character to disguise themselves as another without any clues." may have been slightly put through a meat grinder. (Funnily enough, I don't think that specific rule ever came up with Dlanor) |
| 1098 | |
| 1099 | [[WMG: Natsuhi's pregnancy problems were Krauss's fault]] |
| 1100 | It seems a little convenient how after Natsuhi went off the deep end and [[spoiler: pushed baby Yasu and the servant off a cliff]] she got pregnant quickly enough to have a child just a year later. (I don't think Jessica's birthday was ever revealed so we can't know how soon Natsuhi got pregnant.). This troper thinks that [[TooDumbToLive Krauss]] was the one who had a problem but seeing how Kinzo and Eva were railing against his wife for her failure, didn't want to reveal that he had the problem out of fear and embarrassment. After the incident, Krauss finally realized just how much his wife was suffering and secretly did whatever he had to do to fix his problem. |
| 1101 | |
| 1102 | Who knows, maybe the deciding factor that led to Lion's world was Krauss telling Natsuhi the truth in time and therefore she didn't have any reason to feel resentful towards the baby. |
| 1103 | |
| 1104 | [[WMG: Ikuko is the only true Witch in the series]] |
| 1105 | While everything else in the series could theoretically be handwaved by Battler being an UnreliableNarrator coming to terms with his past, Ikuko's a bit of an oddity. True, the only real hint that there's something off about her is her youthfulness (she has the same appearance in the 2030's that she had in 1986), but unlike everything else, it's not part of Battler's story. |
| 1106 | |
| 1107 | [[WMG:Ronove's AmbiguouslyGay behaviour towards Battler is a reflection of how Genji has unrequited feelings for Kinzo.]] |
| 1108 | Since Ronove is Genji's fantasy counterpart and Battler has strong parallels with Kinzo, Ronove's may-or-may-not-be-flirty behaviour may actually mean that Genji has (very) repressed feelings for Kinzo, who he's known since childhood. Sayo Yasuda may have known or at least suspected this about Genji, hence why they make Ronove act this way. |
| 1109 | |
| 1110 | [[WMG: The Witch of Resurrection is just Loophole Abuse]] |
| 1111 | In EP8, the entire concept of Ange being the Witch of Resurrection can just be explained by abusing a loophole in the rules of the Game Board. Never has been stated in Red that death is final and irreversible. Even the Knox' Decalogue and Van Dine's Commandments never state something like that. It is a bit of an overstretch, but even Ange's powers can be explained by "Human tricks". For example, there have been recorded instances of people being diagnosed as dead, but miraculously coming "back to life". A Red Truth like "Person X is dead" can be avoided by stating in Blue that "This person had a near-death experience when the Red Truth was spoken, but he or she returned to life." This makes the irrational behaviour of Ange in essence just loophole abuse of such a ridiculous degree that even Bernkastel didn't know what to do with it. When she heard that someone is dead, she just believed that they would not be permanently dead. |
| 1112 | |
| 1113 | [[WMG: Ikuko as we see her at the end of the series, is in truth the daughter of Ikuko and Toya]] |
| 1114 | Apparently Ryukishi07's original idea was for Ikuko and Toya (aka Battler) to have even married in the decades between Ange's story and the DistantFinale, but what if they entered a relationship even with no marriage? The daughter grew to be [[GenerationXerox practically identical to her mother]] and, knowing Ikuko's eccentricities, she was trained to assume the same persona her mother kept in her rare public appearances. What better publicity than being a legendary writer who apparently never ages? |
| 1115 | |
| 1116 | [[WMG: There exists a Fragment where Lion was accepted by Natsuhi, but the Rokkenjima Massacre did not occur]] |
| 1117 | Bernkastel states the odds of Natsuhi accepting Lion in any given Fragment were roughly 1 in 2.6 million, but in the specific Fragment she pulled Lion from, the Rokkenjima Massacre still happened. Given that Bernkastel just enjoys making people miserable, it's possible she could have looked a little longer and found a Fragment containing Ushiromiya Lion, but not the Rokkenjima Massacre. Either that, or she found a Fragment like that first, but then intentionally kept looking until she found one where Lion existed along with the massacre. |
| 1118 | * Furthermore... |
| 1119 | |
| 1120 | [[WMG: There exists a Fragment where Yasu planned the Rokkenjima Massacre, but it ended up not happening]] |
| 1121 | In this Fragment, Yasu sets everything up like usual, but once (s)he delivers the letter as Beatrice, challenging everyone/Battler to solve the epitaph, the adults dismiss it like usual, but Battler makes a serious attempt to solve it. He manages to solve the puzzle before midnight, finds the gold, as well as Yasu/Beatrice. Yasu reveals her/his plan was to carry out the serial murders and blow up the island unless someone solved the epitaph, and that one of her/his reasons for doing so was Battler's "sin" from six years ago. (S)he then presses Battler to remember what his sin was. Unlike in the 4th game, where Battler couldn't remember his sin because he recognized Yasu as Beatrice at the time, and couldn't think of anything he did six years ago under that context; here, because Battler recognizes [[spoiler:Yasu as Shannon]], he is able to remember his sin of [[spoiler:promising to come back for Shannon in one year, but never fulfilling that promise.]] Battler then apologizes for his sin, and Yasu breaks down from the guilt of having planned the serial murders in the first place. Since Kinzo's death made Yasu the true master of Rokkenjima, Yasu then makes Battler the new Head of the Ushiromiya family, and Battler forms a plan for how to settle the inheritance issue. With cooperation from the servants who knew Yasu's secret, Battler announces at breakfast how he was made the new head, and that he has a plan for how to divide the gold. For each of Kinzo's children[[note]]Krauss, Eva, Rudolph, and Rosa[[/note]], Battler gives each of them 1/4 of half the gold (2.5 tons apiece). Then, for each of Kinzo's grandchildren[[note]]Battler, George, Jessica, Maria, and Ange[[/note]], Battler portions out 1/5 of the other half of the gold (2 tons apiece). Battler then portions out various parts of the Ushiromiya empire to each sibling, and takes care of the Fukuin House himself along with Yasu. [[spoiler:Since part of Yasu's identity crisis stems from her/his body being so badly damaged (s)he doesn't know whether (s)he's male or female, Battler uses part of his inheritance to pay for Yasu's sex reassignment surgery in order to settle the issue.]] Thus, Battler and "Beatrice" get married for real, run the Fukuin House together, and co-write mystery novels for a living. No one dies on Rokkenjima, the massacre is prevented, Ange's life doesn't become a living hell, and everyone (or at least almost everyone) lives happily ever after. |
| 1122 | |
| 1123 | [[WMG: Yasu is, in fact, female.]] |
| 1124 | Think about this for a moment, [[spoiler:when Genji found out the baby survived the fall, rather than bring the baby back to the mansion, he opted instead to place Sayo in the Fukuin house in order to protect her from potential incestuous advances from her father, Kinzo. After all, history has a way of repeating itself. However, since Kinzo has only been shown to have interest in women, it's safe to assume Sayo was not born male, otherwise, there'd likely be no need for these elaborate protective measures. It'd be different if Kinzo was portrayed as AmbiguouslyBi, but he wasn't. As for why Genji didn't bother confirming Sayo was female when she started questioning what she was, it's possible he tried, but Sayo was too busy freaking out to listen. On the other hand, Sayo could have been born a hermaphrodite, meaning even Genji wasn't really sure whether she was male or female.]] |
| 1125 | * Altenatively, [[spoiler: Genji might have been worried that Kinzo would be so blinded by his love of Beatrice that it wouldn't matter that Sayo was male or female so long as s/he grew to resemble her, and would have repeated his past crime anyway.]] |
| 1126 | |
| 1127 | [[WMG: Will is an alternate personification of Battler from another fragment.]] |
| 1128 | Much like Beatrice is an alternate personification of Yasu/[[spoiler:Lion/Shannon/Kanon]], Willard is a fantasy persona of Battler from the fragment shown in episode 7. Note some similarities... |
| 1129 | * Neither Will nor Battler care much for mysteries without heart. |
| 1130 | * Both of their birthdays take place on the 15th, albeit during different months. However, since Beatrice's 1,000 year age is only a cover, the same could apply to Will's birth month. |
| 1131 | * Both of them seem to get along pretty well with [[spoiler:at least one of Yasu's identities.]] |
| 1132 | * Both play the role of detective at least once. |
| 1133 | * Both have the same color hair. |
| 1134 | Also worth noting that in a fragment where Battler doesn't show up for the family conference of 1986, Will just so happens to show up. However, when Battler does end up going to the family conference, Will is never seen. The only time the two are seen together is in the Meta World sequences. |
| 1135 | |
| 1136 | [[WMG:Bernkastel and Lambdadelta actually represent Kyrie and Rudolf, respectively.]] |
| 1137 | Beatrice and Sayo Yasuda are built up as the culprits, but are [[DiscOneFinalBoss ultimately shoved aside]] in favor of them. Kyrie and Bern are both [[TheStoic stoic]], and Lambda and Rudolf are silly and goofy, but Ange initially trusts them. Even in [=EP7=], when their [[BigBadDuumvirate true nature]] is revealed, [[HorribleJudgeOfCharacter she refuses to believe they’re bad people]]. It’s only in [=EP8=] when she realizes the truth. This also explains how Erika can be Bern and Lambda’s daughter; she’s implied to be Ange’s EnemyWithout. Cat!Bern is Bern’s mundane representation, but there’s nothing that says she’s the only one. |
| 1138 | |
| 1139 | [[WMG:We Wild Mass Guessers [[YouBastard should stop theorizing.]]]] |
| 1140 | We are completely [[MisaimedFandom missing the point]] of [=EP8=], |
| 1141 | which is that tragedies like this should be put to rest. Instead, we’re just creating more goat-butlers for Battler and friends to have to fight off. |
| 1142 | |
| 1143 | [[WMG: [[spoiler: Kanon was only temporarily acknowledged by others as existing in the true world.]]]] |
| 1144 | [[spoiler: The necessary shenanigans for everyone else on Rokkenjima to not notice are...worrying, at best the alternative is involving all the people who normally live on Rokkenjima going along with this and not raising questions. Anything showing otherwise can just be excused as 'Beatrice did it with the gameboard because she could just do that', with the single exception of the one incident of 'Yoshiya' existing when Jessica introduced him, which could be Shkanon faking it.]] |
| 1145 | |
| 1146 | [[WMG: The St. Lucia here is not entirely the same one as in [[VisualNovel/HigurashiWhenTheyCry Higurashi]]]] |
| 1147 | Rather it's the same school rebuilt in another location as It's been theorized in Gou that [[spoiler: Satoko burns down the school in Satokowashi-Hen]] mainly because of the arc's name translating to "Village Destroying'' arc. And the fact that the 2nd album of Gou has a fire behind [[spoiler: Satoko]] with an evil grin on her face. |
| 1148 | |
| 1149 | [[WMG: The unnamed 1986 typhoon is (or is based on) [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Pacific_typhoon_season#Typhoon_Carmen Typhoon Carmen]]]] |
| 1150 | Typhoon Carmen was first detected on 9/27 near Majuro, a full week before the 86' family conference; possibly accounting for [[spoiler: the message-bottle planning around the typhoon]]. Carmen hit its peak strength of 115mph winds (a category 3 hurricane) late on 10/5 roughly 1,000 miles south of the Izu Islands where the fictional Rokkenjima would be located. This places Carmen at too great a distance to subject Rokkenjima to outright hurricane conditions but close enough to account for those presented in the story. As an example, 2008's Hurricane Bertha (a storm of almost exactly the same wind strength) caused multiple fatalities on the New Jersey shoreline by way of rip current while still 1,000 miles away. The historical Carmen does appear to have outlasted the storm in the story however, [[spoiler: unless the calm weather conditions presented during Battler's escape from the island are intended to be a "fantasy" interpretation and the stormy conditions in which Ikuko later scrapes him up off of the ground are meant to be part of the same storm]]. An even more detailed tracker of Carmen's path can be found [[https://coast.noaa.gov/hurricanes/#map=3.18/29.81/158.35&search=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 here]] |
| 1151 | |
| 1152 | [[WMG: Battler was conceived during a threesome between Rudolf, Kyrie, and Ayumu]] |
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