Second worst? What's the worst Obsidian game you've played, in your opinion?
I was actually giving it to an Obsidian game that I haven't played (Dungeon Siege III). I don't necessarily think DS 3 is a bad game, but no-one has ever given me a reason why I should play it.
Pillars of Eternity does have memorable moments, its just they don't really work together to make a memorable game. Like you can have a lot of fun resolving the castle situation at the beginning of the game, but then you have to trudge through the pretty linear story and quest lines of the rest of the game.
What puts me off from backing this kind of project on Kickstarter is that the definition of a good RPG varies so much within the RPG public that devs - I feel - have no idea what to do with their title and please which side of the public. People who like the open world of TES are not the same people who like the open world of Fallout. The cool thing about talking with everyone in PST is that everyone in the setting was weird as heck and had a hell of a crazy story to tell. You definitely don't play Baldur's Gate the same way you play PST, I'm pretty sure there are two distinct audiences for each game. So as a dev you get money for a bunch of people who want THAT specific thing from the game and you end up making a paint-by-numbers mashup that only rewards one side of the public - probably the one who just wanted another fantasy RPG.
I haven't played Po E but looking at let's plays felt like that. I had better hopes for Numenera but then they hired Patrick Ruthfuss to write for the game.
Which is something like hiring Stephenie Meyer to write for a Vampire: The Masquerade game
SNCRSVK: You're right about the definition of good RPG being variable, and there's also a further problem that quite a few people really won't ever admit that something can be better then their favorite RPG from the 90's, and so making a game for them is automatically an own goal. (It's true of other mediums, too, but creators there rarely try to exactly replicate the past. See the history of X-Com successors for further evidence.)
From what I read, however, Pillars was never intended as a mash-up in the way you claim - it's quite clear it was made with the idea of being an improved version of Baldur's Gate - "Baldur's Gate 2.0", if you will. Here's
◊ probably the clearest example: Obsidian took most basic details like that and then went to town on rebalancing the combat stuff and adding a whole lot more texts and timelines and such then all the non - P:ST RP Gs of the time. Given it's 8.5 user score on Metacritic, it worked well, and most people consider it superior to original Baldur's Gate, weaker than BG2, but hold out hope for PoE 2.
I'm holding out for Po E 2. The gameplay is so good and Obsidian are normally so reliable for the other end of things. Hopefully the success of Po E will allow them to take some more risk with Po E 2 (and tbf that end game theme was definitely a risk, a lot of Po E does feel like a personal game made by an artist with things they wanted to do)
- NTC 3 Well Baldur's Gate was a mashup after all. I'd go on a stretch and say that Forgotten Realms as a setting used to be so popular for games because it's a prime example of fantasy kitchen sink.
^ I would say that D & D's influence over the fantasy genre was more important, but yeah, that helped too. And as we know, Obsidian decided to broaden the world further, with gunpowder weapons and non-traditional races in addition to the elves and dwarves.
@ Tomwithnonumbers: Yeah, that's my point. It's cool how we're basically living through a second Renaissance of CRP Gs, with PoE, Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2 and Shadowrun: Returns/Dragonfall all being quality. Add in the less widely known, but still interesting games like The Banner Saga, Dead State and Expeditions: Conquistador, and I would say genre's doing better than anything else at the moment. All we now need is a more space-age sci-fi [[RPG]] and (as unlikely as it is) for Torment: Numenera not to dissapoint too badly.
Who's Patrick Ruthfuss?
It's Patrick Rothfuss and this is the first time I hear of him, too. Apparently, he's the author of the so-called The Kingkiller Chronicle
. It only has two books so far, and the second one was apparently praised by G. R. R. Martin, for whatever it's worth.
Anyway, he doesn't seem too bad. At the very least, it's not Rhianna Pratchett (who wrote the new Thief and plenty of other games with crap stories).
I think that's a really unfair review of Rhianna Pratchett.
1. Rhianna Pratchett didn't write Thief. She helped them with some worldbuilding and a couple of cutscenes _several years before the game was released_. Then when Thief was released in 2013 the publishers decided to call her "lead writer" so they could try and get some publicity out of her name.
http://www.incgamers.com/2014/02/rhianna-pratchett-chose-talk-work-thief
2. (related to 1) She's not an in-studio writer. She's brought into the project by different studios and almost always after serious development has begun. This means she has very little influence on the levels of the game or the game itself. Essentially she tends to get presented a story made by some developer who thinks they're a writer and told "this is how it goes, these are the levels, now do your writing thing". Ms. Pratchett has frequently suggested treating writers like jobbers in this way is a terrible way to make a game story.
All the game with the best stories were written by people who are allowed creative input into the actual game.
3. Even despite that, she's written some good games. A lot of the moment to moment Tomb Raider writing (the stuff she has most control over) was good, the writing in Heavenly Sword has helped it become a cult classic.
The only games she's written other than that which aren't already mentioned are the Overlord games, Mirrors Edge and Risen. The stories might not be great in those, but neither are they terrible.
Rothfuss is a pretty cool guy, but I can't bloody stand The Kingkiller Chronicle. Didn't even finish the first book, and this is from someone with the literary fortitude to cram down all of Ben Hur.
Ms. Pratchett has frequently suggested treating writers like jobbers in this way is a terrible way to make a game story. All the game with the best stories were written by people who are allowed creative input into the actual game.
I agree fully. However, let's be honest: it's not like anyone forced her to move from project to project and studio to studio. She's not some unknown; she's the daughter of the defining fantasy author of the second half of the 20th century. If she genuinely applied to be an in-house writer to a game studio back then, do you really think she would be turned away?
She might've had to downscale to a smaller project than the AA/AAA fare that comprises her output, but she has always had that option before her; to find a willing team, and stick with them through thick and thin.
This hasn't happened: if you look at the list of her works again, you'll see that she switches between not only the development teams, even but between publishers like gloves. As such, I can't really muster a lot of sympathy for her position.
I don't hold it against Obsidian that they switch publishers like gloves, I don't hold it against Rhianna.
There are plenty of personal reasons why you'd prefer contract work over working for a studio and those seem to me to be perfectly valid. It's still not her fault that those companies contract in a bad manner.
Just to ask, what is your list of obsidian games from best to worst.
All I see I conquer
That's a really hard question. Roughly speaking this is what I think it would look like (worst to best for dramatic effect)
- Dungeon Siege III (haven't played but reputation)
- Pillars of Eternity
- Neverwinter Nights 2 + Expansions (to my shame I also haven't played this one. Mask Of Betrayer saves it by reputation)
- South Park: Stick of Truth
- Alpha Protocol
- Knights of the Old Republic 2
- Fallout: New Vegas.
It's worth pointing out there's not really a bad game on that list and you could point out the games as cult classics starting at Mask of Betrayer.
By the time you hit Alpha Protocol, we're talking favourite all time games that have achieved things that no games before or since have achieved.
My friend stopped asking me what games I'd been playing lately as a conversation starter, because everytime he'd asked over the past year I'd been playing Fallout: New Vegas
I was thinking of writing a review myself but I couldn't agree more with that one. It is a good game, it is a fun game, I clocked 50 hours out of it for my campaign, but as was said, it is also "bland, restrictive and unmemorable".
The characters never feel like characters and have nothing to distinguish them from any archetype. I was wrestling to know which I should bring to me for the Final Act if only to get the best reactions and storylines possible. Turned out it was useless. Only Eder and Aloth had something to say. Left me with a hollow impression. The Dyrwood is the standard unoriginal med-fan universe where guns were stappled on to say "look, new!". They created that universe, tell us how these intriguing places like the Vailian Republics, Rauatai or the Dead Fire Archipelago, only to give us the Sword of the Coast #157. Even worse, this is Icewind Dale again they bring for the extension. There is no great moment to remember. The court sequence is terribly short and its outcome is even worse than the trial is NWN 2. But at least, you got to feel like the best lawyer ever in NWN 2, and it was not the only moment. Teir Evron, despite that bitchin' constellation appearing under your feet, turned to be underwhelming. Even the last hour is not exactly thought-provoking despite how hard they tried... Hell, The Reveal should have been done at the end of the First Act, if only to show its consequences.
I loved every game Obsidian game, South Park aside since I never played it. I loved DS 3 for its great artistic direction and its involving plot, I loved Neverwinter Nights 2 for its rich universe and its colorful (while cliché) and enjoyable characters, I loved games that are universally praised for their story like Mask of the Betrayer or KOTOR 2 because of how intriguing, immersing and interesting they are.
Po E fails in all these areas, leaving you with a game not unlike Baldur's Gate, except I don't invest in Obsidian games to get Baldur's Gate.
I realized I gave a really sour opinion. It shouldn't be. It's a good game that gives fun and get the player to explroe willingly. You can easily play for hours and not see them passing. Just don't have expectations according to Obsidian's previous games and take it as another game, without caring of the studio.
George Zeits should have been the Lead Writer.
I just finished the game, I enjoyed both the combat and the story, although the former eventually became monotonous due hitting the level cap with about 25% of the game left to go; there didn't seem to be much point to fighting anyone when I already had everyone equipped with best gear available and nobody's stats could increase further. I'm a little perplexed by the people reporting that they didn't have many plot-relevant conversations with their party members- mine chatted with each other and about the goings-on in the game regularly. Plus there were lengthy optional conversations with most of them when I clicked the "talk with X" box. I didn't mind the main plot at all, although I never understood why the main antagonist was so reluctant to just have an honest discussion with my character, which as best I could tell would have eliminated the need for most of the bloodshed. Even when it was clear that I was about to wipe the floor with him and shatter his plans into a billion pieces he refused to level with me, which was honestly a bizarre placement of priorities. Also some of the dialogue seemed to conflate the concepts of "artificial" and "false". But otherwise it was certainly up to the standards of the old IE games... perhaps not IWD 2, but that game's a masterpiece.
Argh, could have sworn I put a paragraph space in there. Sorry.
Most Obsidian games really are up to the standards of Icewind Dale 2, if not even better
Completely disagree :)
Of course I genuinely disliked the storytelling in New Vegas, so I think we have very different interests / standards.
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The Second Worst Obsidian Game (But Most Fun)
This is the most polished and best playing Real Time with Pause game ever made. It is fun just to click and move round and doubly fun to fight things.
But if Obsidian normally make unpolished cult classics that deserved to be remembered decades later, Po E is the opposite of that.
The core problem is everything feels bland, restrictive and unmemorable.
There is a lot of reactivity and choice, but its formed in a way that doesn't stay with you. You can decide peoples fates, but the people themselves aren't interesting and they don't feel like a huge part of the world around them. The choices just don't feel like an act of self expression, they're simply the option you took because you had a high enough stat A.
For example, midway through the game you choose a faction to belong to. But if you've already done two quests with a faction (and they're available long before you know that you need to choose a faction), none of the other factions will let you in. And moreover, no-one behaves differently depending on the faction you're involved in. There's a lack of feedback, the game doesn't highlight the things that could have gone differently.
One of the only memorable sequences in the game is the court sequence. You get to debate the central theme of the game, express complex views on the issue, try to persuade people, reference events that you've uncovered and use your statistics to make things happen.
And then you don't even get to see the judge make his decision.
The companions are all well written, but only Magren and Grieving Mother have stories that are really going somewhere. Eder is very likeable, mostly thanks to voicework, but his big quest line actually ends in a dead end. The companions don't comment on the world enough, and it's not clear what triggers quest progression, making it feel like its a Bioware arbitrary-time-limit thing.
Finally the last 30 minutes of the game are really poorly written. It will only bother you if you have a certain viewpoint, because the problem is there's a big thematic twist where the writer was incapable of imagining the thoughts of people who disagreed with him.
It feels weird seeing your companions act like dolls, but the worst is, this is a roleplaying game and yet the writer isn't smart enough to even understand that you could have a point of view.