Yeah, Real Life Writes the Hairstyle being trivia, this info would fit well in it.
Two tropers were edit warring over the following:
- 24-Hour Armor: As part of the Tribe's adherence to the ancient tenets of Mandalorian culture, they never remove their armor or helmets in front of others, even if it means not eating or bathing for extended periods of time. And if necessary, they will resort to violence to prevent the removal of their helmets. Further, even their children are required to go around in helmets to remain part of the Tribe. In season 2, Djarin meets Bo-Katan and her crew; since they are not part of his extreme fundamentalist group, they obviously do not adhere to this rule and casually take off their helmets, causing Djarin to have a mini Freak Out and a No True Scotsman attitude towards them before the situation is explained more.
Specifically, about whether it should be placed at the top of the page (24 Hour Armor) or under T (Twenty-four Hour Armor).
Personally, I agree with Fireblood; tropes staring with a number (such as this one, 0% Approval Rating, etc) go at the top of the page, and if they need to be in a folder then said folder is marked, "# - [letter]".
Thoughts?
Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying! Hide / Show RepliesTop of the page; the only reason the link is written out is due to a bug in the site's programming and the fact it's displayed as a custom title to be a number is all the evidence you need.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.Just put it back at the top of the page. It's confusing, but it's the correct placement.
I'm not expecting any real objection. Only wish we could have hashed this out before things escalated but w/e.
Do we have explicit rules on number-based tropes when alphabetizing?
Edit: Looks like we do: How to Alphabetize Things
Edited by zarpaulusCool. [thumbsup] I'll keep that link in mind in case something similar ever comes up.
I see the example's already been restored, so I'll go back to wiki walking.
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!I threw in a null edit quoting the specific rule just in case Overfiend comes back and doesn't see this discussion. I also sent a PM via an Indentation notifier (not exactly correct but close as anything else) so to explain the situation, provide the urls to the this discussion, the Administrivia page, and an Ask The Tropers thread that brought this to my own attention.
Edited by sgamer82When The Star Wars Book describes the Mandalorian's origin story, it calls him "Din Djarin" and "Din", but never simply, "Djarin". Should we also do the same?
Hide / Show RepliesI think we should just treat Din, Djarin, Din Djarin, Mando, and the Mandalorian as pretty much interchangeable, first come first served, unless there are, say, other Mandalorians to distinguish him from.
Updated the description, just to clarify, hopefully that's alright. I just went with my original suggestion from the ATT, but maybe we could adjust the phrasing or place it elsewhere in the description.
I can't say I'm surprised. Though her posts were far from what I like, I'm not happy. Even aside from the issue with her personally (does this really help? There has to be a better solution) it might mess up the show. I hope they find a way to gracefully right out her character at least.
I'd say of all the recurring characters, she's easily the most expendable. To the point it's more weird that she continued to have a role; she had her arc and became a successful Marshal for the New Republic. All they have to do is say "she went back to work."
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.I hadn't heard about her offscreen presence until just now. Disappointing to find out, I kinda liked her. That first comment about shouting in the middle of the street, though, for months on end, that's pretty much dead-on. But easy enough to write out. I was surprised when she came back for as many episodes as she did.
I guess it seemed like she might be a recurring role, but yeah in retrospect it's not that hard.
Moving conversation on Bo-Katan's classification of Din's group/how the narrative is framing Din's group from here:
I will freely admit that I didn't think the show was framing Bo-Katan and co. positively at all, especially when it goes out of its way to show her actions towards Din in particular as dishonest/manipulative: not telling Din what she intended with the Imperial ship, not telling Din why she wanted to fight Gideon (which came back to bite her, whoops), etc, etc. I actually haven't watched The Clone Wars (maybe I should, haha), and my impression of how the show is trying to portray her was mostly colored by the fact that every other Mandalorian in the show (not that there are many...) is honest and straightforward to a fault, while her lack of disclosure has been central plot points in two episodes. I didn't know she was portrayed as a "remorseless villain" in TCW, but that makes a whole lot of sense.
To be fair, this is all colored by the fact that the way Din's framed makes him seem suspiciously uninformed about other Mandalorian sects — not just "no true scotsman" about them, but legit like he didn't know, which... definitely is a choice they made (though he also didn't know about the Jedi, who seem to be famous enemies of the mainline Mandalorians, so jury's out). Also, again obviously, interpretations can vary a lot and we've only had two seasons. I just note that while Bo-Katan's dishonesty hasn't been framed very flatteringly, we haven't actually seen Din's group framed unflatteringly — partially a symptom of their limited appearances, but an upstanding guy like Din doesn't appear out of nowhere!
Edited by Schnikeys Hide / Show RepliesHmm. Just saying you might want to inform them if you've moved this.
I put a reply on the end of the "Ask the Troper" thread, but is there a way to individually ping people/is that polite? (I'm new here lol)
I think that probably counts. PMing everyone individually (you can click on their portrait and there's a Send Message button along the top) can probably wait, like if you go a day or two without a response, for instance.
The entries probably just need to be pared down and made more neutral (and less speculative) in both directions.
I wonder if there's a better trope that the description could be put under rather than "Cult", because on rereading the main trope page, the Tribe just doesn't really fit other than the most superficial levels of "lives in secret" and "they go kind of overboard with modesty and privacy". No authoritarian leader, no "try to leave and we kill you", no goals of world domination, no weird sex stuff or human sacrifice, no crackdowns on dissent... granted, all of this stuff could be happening offscreen, but we aren't exactly led to believe that there's unsavory goings-on beyond the clan Vizsla insignia on the flashback Mandos and, again, Bo-Katan's statement. Is there a trope for "culturally insular group"?
To be completely fair, many real life cults are not any of the things you described. Most IRL religious movements that are classified as "cults" are held together more by peer pressure and indoctrination to fanaticism than actively threatening members with death if they leave, though that is something that happens in more extreme cults. A cult doesn't have to be flagrantly malicious to be a cult, it just has to be highly dogmatic and isolated from outside influence (heck, broadly speaking every world religion can be technically be classified as a cult if you stretch the definition a bit).
I think that's why most people take Bo-Katan at her word; the Children of the Watch don't fit the pop-culture "creepy evil sex murder" version of a cult, but from what we've seen in comparison to other Mando groups they very much fit the more mundane "real world" cult archetype of a dogmatic, highly-insular religious group that discourages contact with the outside world and tries to operate in secrecy (Djarin is notably one of the only members who regularly goes outside; I recall either the Armorer or Paz mentions they only leave their hidden base one person at a time).
The thing that sold it for me personally is how Djarin at first can't even concieve that a Mandalorian would ever remove their helmet in front of someone else when he meets Bo-Katan to the point of a mini-Freak Out, when we've seen clearly in other media that removing your helmet whenever is the norm for most Mandalorians. Deliberately isolating members from alternate viewpoints and basic knowledge of the outside while teaching them that your beliefs are the only acceptable way is textbook cult tactics.
Edited by Dirtyblue929It doesn't have to check all the boxes, and the covert does hit a few of them. Tropes are flexible, and Cult is a pretty broad trope. But a cult doesn't actually have to have all the negative, controlling, exploitative aspects, they just often do in fiction (and in real life, just because it's an easy, proven way to manipulate people).
I think as a small, secretive religious group, we do have to at least acknowledge the enclave is a cult on some level. It's more than that, largely benign and even heroic from what we see, and it differs from other cults in that it's also a tribal refugee group. The entry should mention that, and some of the current text probably does belong under another trope if it's not just YMMV/WMG. But I do think cult is the right trope, or at least I don't know a more specific subtrope.
Edit: Ninja'd. But I'll also just mention I tried my hand at drafting something more neutral. Could still use some further paring down:
- Cult: The Mandalorians of the covert on Nevarro are something of a benign cult, in many ways more like a small tribe of refugees, mostly made up of survivors and foundlings brought into the fold during the Clone Wars. The first season portrays them heroically, flying to the rescue when the Empire lays siege to the town. Highly secretive, they consider themselves the Last of Their Kind and ascribe religious trappings to their weapons, armor, and the rare alloy known as beskar steel. They also never remove their armor in front of anyone, including each other, especially their helmets. The second season reveals that other surviving Mandalorians consider sects like Djarin's to be religious extremists — Bo-Katan calls them the Children of the Watch (suggesting a possible connection with Death Watch), and she and her followers freely unmask in public and, at least in Bo-Katan's case, are far more pragmatic about abiding by the terms of their deals.
^ Yeah, my thoughts essentially. The Watch very much tick the boxes for a cult from both a narrative and a real-life "dogmatically isolating its members" perspective, but as I said cults aren't always inherently evil or malicious, just dogmatic and insular, and the Watch very much strikes me as one of the most morally nuanced fictional cults I've ever seen (and one of my favorites as a result).
EDIT: Also yeah that entry looks great to me!
Edited by Dirtyblue929Thanks! And yeah, there's a whole discussion to be had about how every new religion starts out as a cult, and maybe their legitimacy should be decided based on how they treat people in and outside of their membership, rather than their size. Just not on the main page, heh.
As mentioned there is some information in the previous version of the entry that we could probably still find a place for. About how many of the Watch's traditions are based in pragmatism, and how they're trying to preserve their way of life, not indoctrinating people into their beliefs for the sake of growing their numbers. Ancient Tradition and Appeal to Tradition might be useful for the latter? I can't think of a trope for the former.
Bump. I'll just replace the cult entry for now. It's a wiki, it can still be edited further as needed.
When we determine the most important characters of season 2, will we also add their actors to the top of the page, or do they constitute Walking Spoilers?
Hide / Show RepliesI also can't decide if it seems fair or not to list Werner Herzog, Nick Nolte, and Taika Waititi among the "stars" if it feels all but certain that they won't appear after S1.
Edited by dsneybufMaybe divide the list of stars up by season once we get a better idea of who the major cast of Season 2 are.
Should we split off Shout-Out into a unique page? It's already extremely heavy on the Western and Jidaigeki Shout Outs. At the moment there's one on the main page and more on each individual episode page. We could consolidate them to one place, maybe index it to a common Star Wars index.
Edited by molochPosted in the quotes thread about the page quote; it's been changing too much, we need to make a real decision.
Hide / Show RepliesI've already posted a reply there, but I'll repost it here in case anyone else wants to chime in.
I think the following fits the overall tone of the first few episodes at least (badass bounty hunter becomes a bounty himself):
Question, should we mark spoilers for the baby in the main page? Seems like they got unmarked.
Hide / Show RepliesStuff that happens in the first episode are usually left unmarked after a few episodes. The baby while being a surprise for the first episode is also a main character, it would mean basically every trope on the page would need to be spoilered.
Hmm yeah, I think that makes sense for a first episode plot twist, plus the twist has somewhat become known. I think I'll be in favor of having the baby plot twist unmarked. I'd like some input on this so we can make a guideline for the page.
I've been thinking... maybe we could move all the unconfirmed tropes to a Sandbox page in anticipation of the series' eventual release later this year? As in, copy-paste the page plus commented out tropes to say, Series The Mandalorian and direct anyone who wants to add tropes based on something they heard about the series to that page instead? We would still ask for citation where necessary but clearly people are in a weird place if wanting to trope this work without having enough concrete information to do so.
Hide / Show RepliesTroping isn't a guessing game. We catalog tropes that occur in works that have been released to the public, not tropes that we think MIGHT happen in works that we haven't seen.
Troper snivyTsutarja moved a bunch of hidden entries into a hidden "unconfirmed tropes" heading.
While I'm sure they had the best of intentions, this isn't really a good way to handle this. Most of those entries were hidden because they do not cite a publicly-released, tropable source per the policy on Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work. Others were hidden because they are Zero Context Examples.
The spirit of the Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work policy is not to guess which tropes will apply to a work we haven't seen yet. We trope only material that is publicly available and verifiable, in this case the trailers. Some of the hidden entries could probably be unhidden if citations to publicly-available material were added; the rest should be deleted.
As for the ZCEs, some might be salvaged and unhidden by adding context; any that can't are either speculation or shoehorning or both, and should be deleted.
I haven't been following the work super closely, so I'd hate to delete anything that could be salvaged by someone who's more in the know. Would anyone care to take a crack at salvaging hidden entries before the "unconfirmed tropes" section is deleted?
BTW, if you have any questions about the policy for work pages for unreleased works, feel free to join us at the relevant cleanup thread, where I've cross-posted this.
Hide / Show RepliesProblem is, we don't have much of anything to go on. We know next to nothing about the character at the centre of the show, never mind the others or the plot of the show itself. All the promotional material released so far is very slim on details. Not to mention the show isn't slated to be released until November 12 at the earliest (and not widely-available outside of America; it could well be 2020 before we get it in my country) and episodes will be released on a week-by-week basis, which means even when we do get more information it's likely to be in a slow trickle unless Disney releases some kind of SUPER-spoileriffic trailer or information before then.
There's far more to speculate on than to know right now.
I mean, if the hidden entries really are just straight-up speculation unsupported by the material (like trailers) that have been released to the public, then it should be deleted.
I just didn't want to go on a deleting spree without giving folks who've been paying closer attention to the marketing than I have a chance to speak up.
Looks more like the problem is we have SOME information but not enough for properly detailed examples.
I recently learned that Ahsoka Tano's lekku were made shorter (compared to her appearance in Rebels or Shaak Ti's appearance in the prequels) because longer ones proved too impractical for action scenes. Is this an example of Real Life Writes the Hairstyle, or does it fall under one of the Media Adaptation Tropes?
Edited by Yensil Hide / Show Replies