Discussion Series / StarTrekPicard

I'm the one who made the page. Picard is set well after Nemesis in the Star Trek chronology. Your post doesn't make much sense to me because the vast majority of Trek shows and films are set in the Prime timeline. Only the three most recent films are set in the Kelvin timeline. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

Picard, Discovery, and the classic Star Trek series and movies all take place in the Prime timeline. Only the three Kelvin Timeline movies are set in the Kelvin timeline.

I'll agree with the cleanup once the finale airs. Once the full story is told, we can better reflect on the elements shown.

As for the Manchild entry, you can probably remove that now. If there's a future example of childish behaviour, it can always be added back in again.

I'd argue there wasn't even childish behaviour for both of them to begin with, other than when Elnor was an actual child. As an adult, he is a typical Warrior Monk and not very worldly, but that is different from being childish. And Narek's entire role basically consists of him being a spy who was tasked to seduce someone to get information and accidentally fell for the mark, that doesn't jive with Manchild, either.

I would agree with Holly. Just because Elnor is somewhat sheltered doesn't make him a Manchild, any more than Narek playing with a Rubix Cube. Adults IRL use them, often for much the same explanation Narek gives. And given Narissa's lack of respect for his boundaries, and general treatment of him elsewhere, the idea she might break it is a very real concern he would have.

What is wrong with the Foil entry which compares Elnor and Narissa? These two characters have similarities and differences, which is the whole point of a foil.

Foil doesn't just mean similarities and differences, or every single character would be every other character's foil. You need a deeper relationship than that - for example, in TNG, Riker was Picard's first officer, and he was also his foil, in temperament and personality. On ST:Picard, Picard's foil is Raffi (and not Seven, like someone has written, because Seven is not around enough for that). Both of them serve to highlight specific personality aspects of Picard, by engaging them and contrasting them.

In that sense, even Elnor and Narek don't work well as foils, because we don't have them interacting - but they generally would be, because while they are in similar circumstances - young Romulan males who were orphaned as children and raised by (albeit very different) matriarchal sects - they have opposing personalities, in that one is a straight-forward fighter, and the other a spy who gets by on his wits. Narissa is much more of a foil to Narek then to Elnor, because they interact, and they have similar upbringings and professions - but while she relishes her work, and has no doubts about her calling, he is hesitant and is obviously not completely behind the Zhat Vash's philosophy. They are also opposite in temperament - she is volatile and impatient, but at the same time has an inner strength, while he is patient and cerebral, but also very emotional.

tl;dr, Narissa and Elnor don't have enough of a relationship for her to be a foil to him.

I'd also say that in general, there seems to be this desire to force these three characters specifically in very narrow boxes - Narissa and Narek as typical "evil Romulans" and Elnor as the one heroic exception - and I think we should be careful with that. It already doesn't fit what the show itself does - Laris and Zhaban are doubtlessly heroic characters, and Pel, the wife of Raffi's son Gabe, seems unlikely to turn out to be a devious spy, and the whole point of Narek as a character is that he is torn between two opposite sides - and since we haven't seen the whole season yet, it seems a little premature to try and cement any narrative about the characters' true roles. That goes at least for the two guys, given that they're played by regular actors, whose roles are bound to be more complex.

The Trope Page itself says interaction between the characters is key for a pair of characters to qualify as an example.

As Narek and Elnor don't (yet) interact, they do not qualify as Foils. So I agree with removing Foil from their character sheets. Narissa and Elnor are questionable. While they do interact, that interaction more or less amounts to a single several minute fight scene in about 8 hours of story.

In case of Narissa and Elnor, they interact, but they don't have any kind of relationship that is deep enough to establish them as foils. Narissa defines Elnor as a Category Traitor for herself, so she can view him as an enemy that needs to be taken down, instead of a fellow Romulan, she at least technically would have to protect - Narissa may be a two-dimensional character, but she isn't chaotic evil, so she needs reasons to do what she does - and he fights her because she attacks people he chose to protect, but that's really the gist of their relationship. And I don't think that is enough to make them foils.

FYI, I've removed these entries from the main trope page with a link to this discussion.

I've also removed them from Elnor and Narek's entries, with a note that we discussed it and can always put them back if/when they finally meet, and perhaps behave foilishly.

In general, when I make cuts, I can always be persuaded that my reasoning is wrong - I just wanted to point that out, since Siberia 82 voiced concern that I would simply re-edit tropes if she put them back. I personally prefer discussions in that case, so it's good that is happening here.

We're still getting a lot of episode and character tropes on the main page.

This preview clip for Episode 10 confirms that Narek and Elnor meet: https://twitter.com/getyourcomicon/status/1242795072770408449 (You'll have to copy and paste the URL because TV Tropes adds https://tvtropes.org/' in front of it.)

We still can't make an assessment until the episode actually airs. Otherwise it's still speculative troping.

After ep 10, I think Foil still doesn't work for Elnor and Narek (I'd give them Teeth-Clenched Teamwork and Enemy Mine respectively), because while Elnor doesn't like Narek and Narek couldn't care less what Elnor thinks neither really illuminates the other's personality. Maybe we could bring this up in when we're generally cleaning up the character entries, because there are some Foil entries I'd like to discuss, too (I don't think Hugh or Seven are really foils for Picard for example, but maybe others have different opinions?).

In terms of the general style, could we maybe phrase some of the entries so they're a little shorter and more fluid? Some seem more like lists than articles.

I would agree. Foil really doesn't work, in part because as you said I don't think Elnor and Narek really had enough time together on-screen to aptly compare and contrast them.

I'm also dubious whether Whole-Plot Reference ought to be applied. Isn't that consider a form on Shout-Out, in which case we would need some confirmation that the reference was intentional. Without some sort of limitation of that nature you could literally apply that trope to almost any work when you consider The Seven Basic Plots.

I feel the same about Whole-Plot Reference - people build synthetic beings who evolve and then kill their makers simply isn't a plot uniquely restricted to Mass Effect. Nor is someone finding a presumable warning from the past which influences the way they act in the future. And which previous piece of fiction is referenced really seems to depend on your age and your interests - I was reminded of the Battlestar Galactica reboot, especially with identical synthoids showing up. The Advanced Synths, whose tentacles we've briefly spotted, were apparently somewhat inspired by Lovecraftian ideas according to Chabon, but that would need another trope entirely.

All right, can we get a final consensus on cleanup? If anyone has any objections speak now or forever hold your peace. We can Comment those entries out with the link to this discussion.

Strongly disagree.

It's 100% a WPR due to the structure - yes, we've seen this storyline a million times in fiction, but the order of events, plot contrivances, and even the Mac Guffins are 100% taken from Mass Effect.

I mean....for fuck's sake, they even kind of look like the reapers! The whole existence of the beacon just cinches it.

Expy and Whole-Plot Reference requires intent. Show me Word of God that confirms it.

Seriously guys, stop putting Character and Episode tropes on the main page. It's already going to take a TON of cleanup to straighten out as it is and that's just going to make it worse.

Question: how do we differentiate between character and episode tropes? Are certain tropes on a recap page more appropriate for a character?

[looks at original posting] Whoops. You mean "series" page are getting duplicates. Okay.

There's also episode tropes on the Series page, as well. A general cleanup is in order.

Regardless, it's pretty straightforward:

Does the trope discuss the series as a whole? Series page.

Is the trope specific to an individual character? Character page.

Does the trope reference events specific to an individual episode? Recap page.

FYI, I did some cleanup on pages recap 4 and 5 as well as series and made notations for why. But, I've noticed the same repeated trope Ninja Maid on two of the recap pages that are duplicated in the character page, but I'm not entirely sure they should be removed since those two recaps are when we first see these characters in action.

Huh. So that's what a Mythology Gag is. Actually under that definition I'm not sure Star Trek can have Mythology Gags. So yeah, renamed and broken up. Thanks for the clarification.

I suppose the mythology gags would be things like using "Blue Skies" in the opening of the series, or the Romulan leitmotif from "Balance of Terror", as neither of those are actually happening in-universe, it's just the soundtrack to us.

It's on television in Canada, and Netflix series are under the Series namespace, so this probably should be too.