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Larkmarn
topic
07:23:47 AM May 15th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.9
Opening for discussion changing "Frenemy" as a redirect from Friendly Enemy to False Friend.

As a colloquialism, it overwhelmingly falls into a definition more similar to False Friend, being someone who pretends to be a friend but is an enemy.

It's thematically similar, but kind of the opposite of a Friendly Enemy which is usually someone who's overtly antagonistic, but acts like a friend. In fact, if you look at the thread beneath this one, the comic that's proposed as a new image posits Friendly Enemy as a possible new definition for "Frenemy," with With Friends Like These... and False Friend as the existing use.
SeptimusHeap
07:30:38 AM May 15th 2014
Aye, switch.
crazysamaritan
11:26:29 AM May 15th 2014
edited by 70.192.204.92
From your own links, we have
  • someone who really is a friend but is also a rival
  • Someone who is both friend and enemy, a relationship that is both mutually beneficial or dependent while being competitive, fraught with risk and mistrust.

Seems to be two interpretations of the term:
  • person who talks like a friend, but acts like an enemy
  • person who talks like an enemy, but acts like a friend
Based on the portmanteau, either one makes sense, and both are present outside of this wiki. So we can't just say "it is used this way".

I also want to note that Friendly Enemies is similar to Vitriolic Best Buds and Who Needs Enemies? I'm not sure Frenemy is doing a good job as a redirect. Do we have Quilsing?
Larkmarn
11:59:18 AM May 15th 2014
The Urban Dictionary link makes the amount of usage most clear: the most common usage of the word is the False Friend definition (having about five times as many votes as the Friendly Enemies definition). Not to mention it's apparently in the dictionary under only the False Friend definition.

I suppose a disambig is an option, but leaving it as a redirect for the much less common definition is pretty nonsensical.
crazysamaritan
03:05:56 PM May 15th 2014
I agree that Urban Dictionary presents strong evidence that the trope Friendly Enemy does not match the term "frenemy". But the definitions present also have a few more shades of meaning than False Friend does. For example, the False Friend is clearly going to end the friendship, or become a real friend. The UD instead tends to recommend that "you" (the hero) be the one to end the relationship, completely disregarding The Power of Friendship.

I'm not proposing a disambiguation, I'm currently interested in hearing more opinions. I have enough information to see the current situation might be considered inadequate, but not enough to see if changing the page represents an improvement.

Septimus is convinced by your arguments, but I'm uncomfortable with the prior bias displayed (initially you wanted With Friends Like These...), so I'd really prefer to see more people chime in about their opinions before deciding what I think is the right action.
Larkmarn
03:22:19 PM May 15th 2014
More than anything else, I want it not Friendly Enemy. Part of the problem is it really does seem like it'd fit (Frenemy sounding like a portmanteau of Friendly Enemy), but in reality its most common use is pretty much the opposite. I first thought of With Friends Like These... (mostly because of another discussion on this page) but I now see that's also not a good fit.
Larkmarn
06:28:13 AM May 22nd 2014
Also I'm sort of perturbed by you saying I have a bias. That's... interesting.
crazysamaritan
08:04:09 AM May 22nd 2014
edited by 70.192.211.87
Oh, we all have biases. For this case, I'm biased against change. I did not mean to say anything negative about you, and I can only apologize if you felt it was offensive. Your bias is to "make [Fre Nemy] not Friendly Enemy.", which is a perfectly valid opinion. There was about a 3:2 ratio in favour of that in the att that started this.

That's why I want more opinions.
DaLucaray
topic
03:59:12 PM May 14th 2014
Should we make one of the panels from this comic the page image instead? It's much less wordy and visually shows the trope.http://www.bugmartini.com/comic/lemme-tell-you-bout-my-best-frenemy/
SeptimusHeap
10:11:29 PM May 14th 2014
Might want to offer it up in Image Picking.
Stoogebie
topic
07:27:12 PM Jul 25th 2013
Would it count as this trope if a character is always the type to express admiration to whoever pulls a Crowning Moment Of Awesome, even if that person is on the opposing team?
MithrandirOlorin
topic
12:00:41 AM Nov 3rd 2012
Why not just name this Fenemies? It's equally as well known as phrase as Big Bad is.
ading
04:20:17 PM Mar 20th 2013
That could be confused with With Friends Like These....
174.112.126.168
topic
08:33:37 PM Jun 8th 2010
I was just browsing around this site and found this topic and it reminded me of how Team Rocket used to be bad guys but now they are simply very wacky recurring characters. They should be mentioned!
ading
04:20:31 PM Mar 20th 2013
Thecommander236
09:24:35 PM Mar 22nd 2013
That was three years ago.
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