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SeptimusHeap
topic
12:23:55 AM Jul 18th 2014
This item is being edit warred over. Please discuss it here rather than edit warring.
  • Hand Wave: If you have visible plot holes in your story, maybe you should back and tweak a few things.

I am personally inclined to leave it off. A Hand Wave is an In-Universe explanation ad hoc, but it has nothing to do with a Plot Hole except that some handwaves are there to plug plot holes. The example writeup makes no sense.
Generations91
04:42:52 PM Jul 18th 2014
edited by 104.32.41.148
I'm sorry for edit warring over it. But the point I was trying to make was that most Hand Waves I've seen are there to try and worm one's way out of a visible plot hole; had the story been written well, then the author would not have to resort to a Hand Wave. A good author can explain a complicated plot point without interrupting the stories momentum.
Kuruni
09:34:05 PM Jul 18th 2014
edited by 118.173.48.39
Thing is, Hand Wave is more often used to cover minor issue than complicate plot point.
LeithSol
01:47:00 AM Jul 19th 2014
edited by 76.103.160.94
Hand wave is the lubricant that helps a given work pass a given individuates willing suspension of disbelief.
Kuruni
topic
08:11:35 PM Dec 18th 2013
"Please note that Tropes Are Tools, and many highly acclaimed works have used these tropes successfully."

While I don't want to argue with Fighteer, I think the line above... "When done unintentionally, these tropes are usually bad signs. When done intentionally, they're often signs of parody, comedy, or just the writer being ironic or stylized. Hopefully."

...cover this better, if thing can be done right without parody it, it should belong to Sturgeon's Tropes.

Well, even if that statement would stay, I suggest that we should note that those in "TV Tropes Style" can't done right no matter what.
Kuruni
08:35:21 PM Jul 17th 2014
It finally cause problem...one troper quote that statement as reason why Handwave should be include here.

So this bring up one issue, if you can use tropes in Bad Writing Index successfully, what make it different to Sturgeon's Tropes?
LeithSol
12:51:10 AM Jul 18th 2014
I say scrap Sturgeon's Tropes. Is redundant as all tropes can be used to poor results, so there is no need to make a list of tropes with egregious histories.

Bad Writing Index on the other hand list tropes that fit the Sturgeon's Law definition(90% of everything is crud) fulfilling the need to say that bad tropes are bad, but there is a chance that it could be good.
SeptimusHeap
01:49:10 AM Jul 18th 2014
Scrapping tropes is properly in Trope Repair Shop's jurisdiction.
HeinousHeathenHedonist
topic
08:44:20 PM Dec 8th 2013
How exactly is an Audience Alienating Premise an example of bad writing?
Renelia
topic
09:26:53 PM Jul 18th 2013
I have a question. Is Satellite Love Interest an example of bad/lazy writing, or is it moreso Sturgeon's Tropes? I'm thinking the latter but I'm double-checking to see which one it fits better in.
sidakarya
topic
09:02:01 AM May 24th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Removed some of the music tropes, since many of them fit Sturgeon's Tropes and Discredited Trope better.
MosquitoMan
topic
09:14:59 PM Mar 16th 2013
Can we change the page quote? It's a visual gag in its source, I don't know if it really translates all that well.
YouCrazy
topic
06:53:40 PM Sep 29th 2012
  • Canon Defilement: People who are reading your Fan Fic probably enjoy the show for what it is. Not for what you would like it to be. Seeing beloved characters mangled into whatever form you desire is probably going to cut down on your audience, unless you're Neil Gaiman

Isn't that exalting him there? As if he is the only one who can do it well. Think the line "unless you're Neil Gaiman And even he shows a great deal of respect for Canon while mangling it" should be deleted.
MagBas
topic
07:54:44 AM May 1st 2012
edited by MagBas
  • Explaining Your Power to the Enemy: Unless you’re trying to establish the character is really sure of themselves, this is considered a rather unintelligent thing for them to do.
  • Little Jimmy: Having one character explain something to another isn't bad in and of itself, but the person receiving the explanation should have some degree of brains.

Both are always completely intentional and used to exposition.
Luc
10:21:57 PM May 1st 2012
edited by Luc
Well, Explaining Your Power to the Enemy is something of an odd case, in that it's a rather blatant and common Idiot Ball situation, so I'd say the fact that it's a quite stupid thing to do puts it within the purview of this Index.
Kuruni
11:36:16 PM May 1st 2012
edited by Kuruni
Thing is, it's rarely done by Too Dumb to Live character (unless for comical scene, often lampshaded). Most of time, it's done by either super arrogant guy ("Despite that knowledge, you can do nothing to stop me!") or honorable chivalry ("I known about your power, so it's unfair that you don't know mine"). While latter is Honor Before Reason, it isn't stupid.

...and face it, when some video game boss avert this, you complain in All There in the Manual ("How can I know without reading FAQ?!").
Morpheus6393
topic
02:05:17 PM Nov 27th 2011
I'm adding Deus Angst Machina, because too much misfortune makes for a lack of Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
MagBas
topic
07:50:47 AM Nov 27th 2011

ALL the uses of Standard Female Grab Area are intentional.
Vyctorian
topic
03:04:45 PM May 17th 2011
Removed Purple Prose and Beige Prose, either of those examples of bad writing both are a stylistic choice of writing on the behalf of the author. Many works of both types have received just as much praise as criticism for being Purple or Beige.
brekekekex
topic
01:32:28 AM Nov 1st 2010
edited by brekekekex
Can you even call Shoot the Shaggy Dog a Bad Writing trope? It's badly done a lot of the time, but you can't say including it as the ending is inherently bad (cf. 1984).
Luc
09:26:22 AM Nov 1st 2010
Yes and no. It's frequently diagnostic of bad writing, or at least writing that pisses off the reader. It's a slight special case, as with IKEA Erotica, in that it can be done well, but if it shows up, it probably falls under the Bad Writing Aegis.
Iaculus
10:37:26 AM Nov 1st 2010
Sounds more like Sturgeon's Tropes.

Although I can't see any way to do Ikea Erotica well unless you're aiming for They Plotted a Perfectly Good Waste.
Luc
11:19:56 AM Nov 1st 2010
Er, sorry. Brainfart. I meant to link to Coitus Ensues, not IKEA Erotica.
KSonik
topic
03:41:43 PM Jul 31st 2010
Removed Scrappy. Sometimes yes it can be caused by bad writing and sometimes it can be caused by fandumb.
Iaculus
04:51:50 PM Jul 31st 2010
It's considerably rarer to find a well-written character receive a level of dislike that the writer did not intend, though.

Saying that it's just Fan Dumb rather glosses over the gripes that cause the rabid, frothing hatred in the first place. Relena Peacecraft, for instance, is not the evil, soulless harpy that demented fans tend to portray her as, but probably would not have been so widely despised if the writers had had a better idea of how to incorporate a Badass Pacifist character into their mecha show.
KSonik
08:20:39 AM Aug 1st 2010
edited by KSonik
Still my whole point is that yes sometimes it can be caused by bad writing but the trope doesn't belong here as well at the end of the day it can be caused solely by fandumb.

Alice the Hero for example could be an appropriately deep character and still be a Scrappy and recieve Ron the Death Eater treatment because of the fact she,let's say, killed the Ensemble Darkhorse who gets the Draco in Leather Pants treatment even though he is a Complete Monster who brutally goes around murdering orphans just because he looks good.

Edit: The point is that there are many reasons why a person can get widely hated and you cannot always rely on fans always being justified(see Fan Dumb and some cases of Misaimed Hatedom).
TheOneWhoTropes
topic
05:14:10 PM Mar 9th 2010
To continue from a previous post in archive; Unfortunate Implications isn't there because a good writer can be a horrible racist. H.P. Lovecraft and H.G. Wells come to mind. H.P. Lovecraft even put it in his fiction, yet people still believe him to be a great writer. And he wrote the only genuinely scary thing I have ever read (The Colour Out Of Space). A man disintegrating and falling to pieces while still alive is a horrid image.
sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk
12:37:52 PM Apr 11th 2010
edited by sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk
Except that the reason that Unfortunate Implication is a sign of bad writing is that it, regardless of whether the writer is secretly a horrible bigot or not, would have creeped up in modern work where said prejudice is not acceptable. For example a work where the only members of Group X (assuming they were not Acceptable Targets today) were all subtly portrayed(accidental or not) as whatever negative stereotype would count as an Unfortunate Implication. A work where all of Group X were blatantly portrayed as whatever negative stereotype would not count as an Unfortunate Implication but as an Unfortunate Statement. The H.P. Lovecraft example would fall into the latter as he is blatantly saying instead of implying "(Insert whatever Group was the target in whatever book) are all (insert whatever negative stereotype he made them out to be)
Kalekona
10:58:10 PM Jul 12th 2010
You make a good point, but let's not forget Lovecraft is a horror writer. Eldritch abominations are scary in their own right, but racism and ignorance are things that can get you outside of books or nightmares. I think ol' H.P. was merely obfuscating racism. Pure dedication to craft.
MagBas
07:26:01 AM Nov 27th 2011
Unfortunate Implications is "this thing offends my sensibilities". It is a sign of bad writing because i am sure- with the exception of Dead Baby Comedy writers and similar- it is not the intention of the author offend their audience.
Danel
07:43:26 AM Nov 27th 2011
Modern issues with Lovecraft are - mostly - a matter of Values Dissonance. That's rather different from Unfortunate Implications.

That said, the way we use it here, where Unfortunate Implications can mean any bizarre interpretation of a work, doesn't really require bad writing.
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