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THEKHAN
topic
05:37:47 AM Oct 24th 2012
edited by THEKHAN
I know it's late for adding but looking at the Drakensis' distaste and contempt for humans, i can wild guess that Louise Gayner, a mostly overlooked post-humanist, creepy as hell scientist woman in the third book had her way with humanity: eradicating the rest of human Draka after the Final War. Her dialogue with Eric is one of the series' most creepy and disturbing parts.
fljared
topic
03:51:02 PM Aug 17th 2011
...Is this series any good?
gameragodzilla
07:52:34 PM Sep 17th 2011
Pretty good read if you disregard its ASB-heavy storyline. This story is more of a thought-experiment on what if The Empire won for a change than a serious Alternate History. It makes for a High Octane Nightmare Fuel laden storyline. However, if you want all your Alternate History to be hard, well... you're not gonna like this. A LOT of Willing Suspension of Disbelief is necessary.
Journeyman
topic
09:03:52 AM Jan 15th 2011
A Wild Mass Guess: The Draka are not Mary-Sues. Erik Von Shrakenburg, the La Farge clan, and Yolande/Gwendolyn Ingolfsson are the Mary Sues, with good reason. Stirling has already shown a tendency toward the "life of the mind" driving his stories. I propose that Erik Von Shrakenburg is the Drakaverse's version of God in a human body. He rigged the idiot virus so that the Draka would take power so that during the 20th century he could take human form and play the social hero by freeing the serfs. Only it backfired, because the Drakaverse has a Satan figure that played a long game to foil God's plans. Satan's game started with taking on the form of Chantal La Farge during the Eurasian War. She did this to start the spy bloodline using Draka blood. Satan then took on the subsequent life of Yolande Ingolfsson, confident that the La Farges would give her some excuse to force the Final War. Her plans worked, and instead of being the hero Erik had to fight the final war. This whole thing was to teach God/Erik that he had to face the consequences of his actions, the actions being his rigging of the entire world so he could play hero games instead of taking care of the world properly like a God should. The final consequences are felt in Drakon when Gwendolyn messes up what should be a simple recon and beacon building mission just to keep getting as much tail as she wants. Taken with "Upon Their Backs to Bite 'Em" this would suggest Erik's mess will be cleaned up.
THEKHAN
05:32:49 AM Oct 24th 2012
Excuse me. What in the name of Jesus Christ and Mohammad Mustapha did you smoke to make this guess?
Medicus
topic
05:32:14 AM Aug 31st 2010
I've moved the conversation into a Just Bugs Me, seeing as that's where the conservation fits.
JaredLessl
topic
10:09:18 PM Aug 20th 2010
  • Idiot plot: Everybody likes to ignore the The Draka and pretend the problem will eventually go away until it's too late to change anything.
    • The ostrich approach is not exactly unheard of in human history. Compound this with the fact that while the Draka were awesome to behold in combat, there weren't all that many of them (less than half as many Draka Citizens as Germans in 1940, throw in Italians, Austrians, plus divisions raised from French and other conquered territories, it probably looked like it'd be a Curb Stomp in the Nazi's favor). It was the Janissaries who turned their army into a true continent-crushing force. And for that matter, the Draka themselves were comprised of the losers of past confilcts (American Royalists, Confederates, French royalty, etc). White supremacists convincing themselves that a 'mongrel' nation wouldn't be effective in a shooting war? Idiotic, yes, but not an idiot plot.
      • It is an Idiot Plot by the time the Draka attack Nazi Germany. Most of the world believed the Draka wouldn't turn westerners (i.e. white people) in serfs, but that's exactly what they did in Italy only a few years before. And by Christmas 1941 Hitler is dead and a coalition government has taken over. The Alliance members should by now realise that the Nazis (or what's left of them) are a far lesser evil than the Draka and should join them in their war, but the Draka threaten to align with Japan and this somehow stops any peace negotiations. If the Alliance had any intelligence whatsoever they would declare war on the Domination, because any sensible person would recognise the Draka's main goal is the enslavement of the entire human race. The Nazis, even at their height, had no such ambition.
        • The Allies had their hands full with Imperial Japan, which in the Draka world had been building its empire and tooling up for WW2 since the turn of the century, rather than the early 1930's. They not only bombed Pearl Harbor, but invaded and occupied Hawaii as well and made direct assaults against the West Coast. They weren't tied down by a protracted occupation in China, the Indonesian territories they captured were not undeveloped rain forests but highly industrialized nations and could be turned to support their war effort, nor presumably were they suffering from crippling resource and fuel shortages. Compounding this was the complete and total inability of the Red Army to contain the Nazis due to the need to defend the long southern border with the Domination. In short, the Allies' job was much, much harder than in real life. It's easy to forget that we know a hell of a lot more about the conflict than the combatants did; Allied leaders were truly worried about losing even to the lesser real life foes. When the Draka ostensibly entered the war on the Allied side, no way, no how would they look that particular gift horse in the mouth (this was actually mentioned in MTG). Could just as easily say that the real life US and British unwillingness to continue WW2 by invading the USSR (Operation Unthinkable) was a Real Life case of the Idiot Ball, seeing as how they had nuclear superiority and failing to do so resulted in the 50-year Cold War.
        • Also, it's worth pointing out that "They're not a real threat, we don't have to worry about them" was exactly the same thing the Nazis and Japanese said about the United States, right before the Americans put 13 million guys into uniforms and started building ships faster than the Axis could sink them. Idiotic, yes. Idiot Plot, no.
Ktotwf
09:23:55 PM Aug 24th 2010
I tend to agree. The relatively minor Allied invasion of France and Germany was a terrible logistical strain for the American military. A war against the Draka would have been a full scale invasion of the entire world island - Afro-Eurasia. Invading Drakan territory would have been playing to the Domination's strength, namely its absurdly powerful land forces. There would have been no balancing totalitarian force to provide the meat for the grinder so that Western men didn't have to die by the millions as there was in our World War II.

Rather than involve themselves in some sort of cataclysmic world Gotterdammerung, the Allies probably sought to play to their own strengths - industrial wealth, technological development, naval power, and massive ocean buffers. The Alliance probably felt that given enough time the Domination would either collapse in on itself due to the "wrongness" of its way of life (something like what happened to the USSR) or become so technologically backwards that it would eventually be a pushover. Remember, the "waiting game" strategy almost worked - it was only late game Drakan resourcefulness (the Stone Dogs) that saved the Domination from ruin.
Medicus
02:45:05 PM Aug 25th 2010
Personally I would be willing to throw my own life away to destroy the Draka. And my family, my friends, and everyone else in my country. If fifty million Af D citizens die, then it's worth. If the ENTIRE WORLD is nothing but a glass parking lot, then it's worth it, just to get rid of the Draka.
75.74.25.169
08:36:31 AM Aug 30th 2010
edited by 75.74.25.169
Jared Lessl (forgot to log in)

True, but you say that with hindsight knowledge of how things ended up turning out. There've been lots of threats that nations should have paid attention to but didn't, and conversely, ones they became positively monomaniacal about when they shouldn't. For instance, knowing what you do now, would you have given up your life to defeat the vile, barbarian Hun in WW1, as Anglo-American & French propaganda depicted them? After the fact, we know full well that it was pretty much the 2nd largest piece of butchery in history, but lacking any semblance of the righteousness of the followup conflict. It was entirely an Armchair General war, driven on by alliances and a simple unwillingness to cut losses, not by any real conflict. But going by popular opinion of the time, you'd have thought they were in a fight to decide the fundamental fate of civilization.

In any event, this is mentioned heavily in MTG. The Draka freely admit that they are the larger of the threats to the Alliance, and that while they have almost no traits in common with the 3rd Reich and the Japanese Empire, an innate antagonism towards liberal democracies is one of them. The American reporter likewise recognizes the threat the Draka represent, but rightly points out that it is a long term consideration, while the Axis nations must be defeated in the short term for that to even be a problem. In Ut Y, it is brought up again, that once the Japanese were put down, the Alliance could have muscled the overstretched Draka forces out of their new gains, but by that point nuclear weapons were in play (and how!) and it would have cost the Alliance several of their largest cities. Yes, in hindsight (from the Final War in TSD) it would have been worth it, but they quite reasonably chose instead to buckle down on their R&D (which they had an advantage in over the Domination) and wait until they had an edge that could give them a less bloody victory.
Matthiasthalmann
11:58:43 AM Nov 15th 2011
edited by Matthiasthalmann
I have to agree that it is an idiot plot to ignore the obvious threat of the draka. Now lets analyse the counter arguments:

1. "No one believes that the drakas would enserfe white people." So? Napoleon didn't plan to enslave anyone, but nonetheless the whole of Europe untited against him and the British spent an enormous amount of money to get rid of him. The Russians never wanted to enslave british citizens but their expansion in central asia was nonetheless opposed by the UK. The germans in WWI didn't want to enslave the British but they were fought anyway. Conclusion: highly agressive nations with a hunger of territory are feared and antagonised even if they don't plan genocide/mass enslavment, because letting them fullfill their aims means a massive reduction of your power and wealth. The drakans have proven their insatisable hunger for conquest countless times, and finished WWI with the annexion of: Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Central Asia and western China. Just to remind everyone that they're not done they invade Afghanistan in 1925. After that they have nothing else to conquer except white nations or their colonies. The logical outcome is the formation of defensive alliances against the drakas. Failing to do so is idiotic.

2. "They are composed of looser." Are you kidding me? The drakas have never ever lost a single war. They fought Napoleon(1802), the Ottomans(1807), conquered all of Africa (1820-1850), the Russians (1879-1882) and then take part in the first world war - in which the more than double their territory. To believe they are looser is idiotic

3. "They looked harmless without their Janissaries, the other powers were caught by surprise by their massive legions." Yeah right. Small problem: The first Janissaries were recruited in 1790! If your surprised after 150 years it is an idiot plot.

So there is allready a serious idiot plot necessary to even get to the start of "Marching through Georgia".

But it doesn't stop there, it continous through the books; the allies make on idiotic decission after the other: They never support the remnants of the Ud SSR (an allied nation), although doing so would give them an ideal foothold to stir up trouble in the Draka occupied Asia. They never attempt to support either Spain or Portugal (neither joined the Axis), although doing so would give them an ideal foothold to stir up trouble in the Draka occupied Europe. Seriously how hard would it be to get Spain to join the allies and declare war on Germany once the Drakas stand in central Europe (and Germany is powerless to do anything about it?). Then send in some troops and tell the Drakas to stand down or else. They never try to invade Scandinavia and liberate the nations there. Once the Drakas stand in Germany the german occupation force is in no position to offer serious resistance and given how the Drakas act might even welcome such move. What are the Drakas going to do about it? Telling "Sorry, we conquered Germany so all her conquest belong rightfully to us"? They never attempt any Invasion of France. Again by 1944 the Germans are to weakend to offer serious resistance. If they defeat Japan they must posses an enormous amphibious landing capacity and troop concentration in the Pacific; So why not put that to good use by invading Hainan and Korea and Tsingtao? And then use those easily defensible islands/penninsulas to liberate as much of China before the Drakas? The Japanese have lost their entire fleet and their home islands are bombed to rubble and they have to fight the Drakas so they cannot offer serious resistance.

Not doing this requires again an idiot plot.

Lets look at the reasons given in defense of that:

4. "The allies didn't have the logistical capacities invade." That may be true until 1943 but after that the german army is beaten and crumbling and the Drakas stand at the Rhine. What ever is left in France is unable to offer any resistance and given how the drakas act might even welcome the Allies (especially since Hitler is dead). There won't be any more logistic needed than was in our WWII too invade Norway. It is even worse in the Pacific theater as the allies there have proven to be able to invade the pacific islands, indonesia and the Philipines, so they are also able to invade the Mainland, before the drakas got there.

5. "The allies were thought they would win a cold war thanks their industrial wealth, naval power and massive ocean buffers." If you let that Drakas conquer Eurasia (which is what the allies did) they will have the majority of the world's population and natural resources. Given a few years this will inevitably lead to an industrial wealth greater than that of the allies. This in turn will lead to an naval power that is greater than that of the allies which in turn will negate the ocean buffer. It is clear to anyone who is not an idiot that if they're given all of Eursia the drakas will win any cold war.

6. "The allies thought the Drakas would become technologically backwards so they would become a pushover." The drakas were constantly at the forefront of new discoveries: They created steam-powered tanks during the American civil War and lend them to the CSA, they created dirigibles in the Anglo-russian war (1890), they were the first to creat auto-steamers (cars run by steam), and they developed the atomic bomb only a few months after the allies. It should be clear to anyone that the allies will become technologically backwards and pushovers. Which is exactly what happend: The Drakian R&D developed the Stone Dogs virus which enabeld them to destroy the allies. Again only and idiot would not have seen this coming.

So to conclude Idiot plot is appropriate.
THEKHAN
05:00:42 PM Aug 15th 2012
I highly disagree.

In the longer run, it seems that humanity takes the upper hand due to a free society, especially in matters of physical sciences. In the last book, the space combat is dominated by humanity, and with good reason. The Draka are masters of the biology and domination.Long life, pheromones and a slave population don't matter shit if your opponent is firing a hypervelocity railgun to your spaceship, enhanced by latest physics =)
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