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Treblain
topic
08:24:41 PM Jul 25th 2011
What's up with all the character names being linked to character tropes over and over and over? It's redundant.
MrDeath
07:02:42 AM Jul 26th 2011
There's at least one troper who keeps compulsively doing that. Feel free to revert them, I've done so on a number of other pages.
Arivne
topic
10:11:55 PM Dec 10th 2010
edited by Arivne
Moved some Natter in the Disney Villain Death entry to that page.

Removed the spoiler from Foreshadowing: Raiders came out in 1981, and what happens isn't exactly a big surprise anyway.

As per the request on its page, Tearjerker has been removed from the list of tropes.
Premonition_45
topic
03:39:46 PM Aug 31st 2010
According to Plot-Induced Stupidity: In The Last Crusade, Jones senior has spent most of his life researching and searching for the Holy Grail. Yet he had to write down the crucial element of the deadly traps so that "[he] wouldn't have to remember", causing them to travel to Berlin and back.

I don't think it's so stupid. When I was in orchestra, my music teacher told me to write performance-related notes in my music so I need not risk forgetting them later on. When she explained this, I even cited Last Crusade as how it made sense!
Fighteer
moderator
topic
06:01:24 AM Mar 27th 2010
Regarding Did Not Do The Research: What? Seriously, guys. These are fictional films. It's not like the films are pretending to be historical documentaries. If they want Kali to be an evil god and the Ark to have magical powers, so be it. MST3K Mantra and Willing Suspension of Disbelief apply here.
Darkmane
07:41:10 AM Mar 27th 2010
edited by Darkmane
If that's your argument, then you should argue that the entire Did Not Do The Research trope itself is unnecessary. After all, all fiction is fiction, right? So why have tropes like You Fail Physics and Biology Forever and Hollywood Science?

Willing Suspension of Disbelief may apply to people who have the same illusions that the movie shares (I mean, if you think France is in Antartica, you'll have no problems watching a movie which makes that assumption and makes it seriously); to anyone with a bare minimum knowledge of eastern religion, this actually falls under Critical Research Failure - It's a simple fact: Hinduism has a God of Death, and it's not Kali. Yet the movie clearly states so. How's that not DNDTR? It's like getting Hades mixed up with Hera. They didn't even get the gender right. The Thuggees never had cults or Temples. Killing of apes is prohibited under Hinduic law and was never practiced in history, not even in the days when animal sacrifice was at it's peak. So WTF?

The edit history shows repeated deletion of the trope without any edit reason, then someone comes along to accuse me of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like, and claims it has already been "corrected", as if someone provided referenced proof. Seriously?

The sad part in all this? I actually like the series, and did enjoy the other films. It's the Wall Banger portrayal of an entire religion that ruined Temple Of Doom for me.
DEFCON1
01:08:21 PM Mar 31st 2010
We have those tropes because armchair scientists like to come in here and complain about everything.
Fighteer
moderator
02:43:11 PM Mar 31st 2010
edited by Fighteer
DNDTR is only for cases where incorrect facts are presented as factual. Nobody claims Men In Black Did Not Do The Research in presenting a space-travelling, man-eating cockroach. Neither does Indiana Jones pretend to be anything other than fantasy.
DEFCON1
06:18:33 PM Apr 2nd 2010
edited by Westrim
Exactly. The only reason why we still have it is because a great number of tropers who can't recite the MST3K Mantra demand it.
Westrim
12:01:48 PM Apr 3rd 2010
edited by Westrim
No, not really IMHO. The MST3K Mantra generally refers the details that are left out, like just how they keep that Million Mook March fed and supplied in a wasteland. Stuff that was left out because it's not important to the plot or your enjoyment. Did Not Do The Research is for when they do take the time to show something and they do it wrong, because they didn't take 5 seconds to fact check, and could have been done right without taking any enjoyment away. Example: appropriating and misrepresenting a religion for the sake of the plot is fine, getting the handedness of Hitler wrong is not. Obviously there are examples on the DNDTR pages that contradict what I just said, but that's my opinion on the general principle.

Darkmane
03:33:04 AM May 2nd 2010
edited by Darkmane
Is there a reason everybody here decided to have a discussion about the DNTTR trope rather than answer anything I asked? This has been lying idle for weeks now, and it looks like nobody has an actual argument; does the trope go back on the page?
Fighteer
moderator
07:00:09 AM May 2nd 2010
edited by Fighteer
This is relevant. While we agree that little research was done on Hindu religions for ToD, it serves no purpose to add it since the film was not attempting to be historically accurate. Are you going to criticize SpongeBob SquarePants for its errors of physics now?

In short, DNDTR only applies where a reasonable person watching the movie might actually believe that Kali worship is like that. Which is patently stupid.
Darkmane
10:51:58 AM May 2nd 2010
edited by Darkmane
Translation: "The trope applies, but I don't want it on the main page because I LUV INDY."

And the whole "not trying to be accurate" thing applies to every instance of DNDTR. Take it to the discussion for that page. As such, and as per the current definition of DNDTR, the example stands true.

And many actually did take ToD's depiction of India at face value. Look here and here. Guess there are a lot of impressionable people in the world. Huh. Who knew?
Fighteer
moderator
01:55:47 PM May 2nd 2010
edited by Fighteer
I could just as easily accuse you of being a member of the Hatedom. Let's not bandy insults, k?

To quote from DNDTR:

Often these mistakes will be so glaringly obvious to anyone with any sort of basic knowledge of the subject that it will make the entire work seem completely ridiculous. [...] For situations where the research might or might not have been done, but is ignored in favor of the story, that's Artistic License.

So, was Temple of Doom made ridiculous by the lack of factual information about Kali worship?
Darkmane
06:30:59 AM May 3rd 2010
Yup.
Fighteer
moderator
07:25:32 AM May 3rd 2010
Yet somehow millions of people managed to watch the film and maintain their Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Sounds like you're just Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.
Darkmane
09:21:00 AM May 3rd 2010
Westrim
09:52:40 AM May 3rd 2010
It's like I never said anything... DNDTR is when they could have gotten it right, but didn't. (They couldn't have gotten it right in Indy without drastically changing the plot, so it shouldn't be here. Dunno why we're even discussing that.) When it is important to the plot, then you just have to use the MST3K Mantra.
Fighteer
moderator
10:41:17 AM May 3rd 2010
Darkmane, if you can't keep insults out of this, you're going to risk more than just having your pet trope deleted.
Darkmane
11:52:35 AM May 3rd 2010
Westrim, if "some of this does apply", exactly which ones didn't? I hear a lot of MST3K quoting here but scroll up a bit and read the discussion; there are no actual arguments. Also, considering the numerous examples that go on and on; which would you prefer, a Thread Mode or a Wall of Text?
Fighteer
moderator
12:06:45 PM May 3rd 2010
edited by Fighteer
Maybe put it on the actual trope page and cite a reference, since that's the informal rule here when a trope example threatens to become a Wall of Text. Main articles are supposed to be snappy and to the point.

And the actual argument is that DNDTR only applies in cases where the viewer might reasonably be expected to take the story elements at face value.
Darkmane
01:53:25 PM May 3rd 2010
Which applies here, is the point. Also, see how easy that was?
Fighteer
moderator
12:34:41 PM Jun 12th 2010
Hmm, I'm not the only one who doesn't think it applies here.
Darkmane
01:35:35 PM Jun 12th 2010
Quote from There Is No Such Thing as Notability: "If it fits the trope description, then it can be put in."

It fits, it's in. Anyone has a problem with that and tries to justify their Fan Dumb by quoting MST3K, take it to the discussion for DNDTR.
Fighteer
moderator
09:24:05 PM Jun 12th 2010
edited by Fighteer
I've told you before: Subjective Tropes have a higher burden of proof. Calling us names isn't helping your case, either.

If it helps, here's the relevant quote from DNDTR: "For situations where the research might or might not have been done, but is ignored in favor of the story, that's Artistic License."
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