Discussion Characters / Warhammer40000ChaosMarines

It's from the distant epilogue of Manflayer, in a scene explicitly set after the fall of Cadia. He solved the degradation problem in the time skip between the second and third novels with Dark Eldar tech and only the "core" Bile still suffers from it; he spends most of his time in stasis directing the others.

The trope seemed like the best fit to me, he made copies to do his little chores like burning worlds and building monsters.

That context should be added to the example then. I am still not sure that is the right trope but from looking around there seems to be no firm definition for it (sometimes it seems mostly a comedy trope, sometimes it is used for any Self-Replication that doesn't involve super powers, etc.)

I agree, that seems like something else.

I've put a question on trope finder about the preservation of knowledge, which would cover the pre-heresy Thousand Sons. I am unsure about post-heresy but at least some of that would fall under Find the Cure! as some are doing it in order to reverse the Rubric. Others are just obsessed with power and knowledge is power, especially to followers of Tzeentch.

I think I may have found a trope that could be used and was thinking about changing the For Science! trope to the following:

• Keeper of Forbidden Knowledge: Before the events of the Heresy, the Thousand Sons were taught that knowledge was to be revered, collected, and understood, no-matter how profane, heretical or forbidden that knowledge was. The pyramids of their home world were filled with great libraries in which they stored all the knowledge they could glean through their conquest during the Great Crusade and it was the destruction of this knowledge that was their Start of Darkness.

I am still not quite sure what the Cult of Knowledge section of the example would count as however.

^ That sounds good. I think the Cult of Knowledge might be an enforcement?

I've added the pre-heresy example. I am still unsure if the Cult of Knowladge would count. Would a properly worded Flaw Exploitation example work?

I'm good with that change.

Cool. I will leave have a look at rewriting the example. I would also like to see if the troper who originally added the example (Thecommander 236) has an opinion on the matter.

This is how he's presented in the Josh Reynolds' books. He literally denied Slaanesh exists to hir face in Clone Lord.

This is what I wanted to know as I haven't read those books. I may be wrong but I have believe those books are set early in his carrier than the current 40K timeline and in his most famous quote ("The Dark Gods and their slaves have nothing to offer me now, but I have far more to offer them".) he acknowledges the existence of the Gods even if he doesn't worship them so it seems he developed from a Flat-Earth Atheist into a Nay-Theist, meaning the entry would still need to be rewritten.

It's not quite up to the "present day" of the setting, but it's definitely 41st millennium.

Basically he thinks they're mindless cosmic forces that lack any kind of self awareness, and thinks the same of daemons. He believes in the sense that one believes in a hurricane, but thinks you're an idiot if you ask it for favors. In other words, the Crusade era Imperial Truth. What pushes it into this trope is that he will insist on this interpretation to daemons during a conversation with them where they've clearly shown otherwise. It's a major part of his characterization, and even his closest allies think it's a symptom of his insanity.

How much time is between Primogenitor and Clone Lord? I only have wiki articles to go on but some of the events in Primogenitor are apparently dated to M.34.

You're right. I didn't realize the Lugganoth raid was set that early. The second book is only about two centuries later to Bile. They do refer to the battle for Terra being ten millennia ago in both books, so I don't freaking know. It's set in the Eye, consistent flow of time happens to other people.

As a general rule with Chaos you should try to do it from the perspective of the individual but that does sound like it was from early in his damnation so there is still scope for development from Flat-Earth Atheist to Nay-Theist. The other major incident in Biles life that has a date attached is his time with the Haemonculi of the Coven of the Thirteen Scars, which apparently happened during M.37. Does Clone Lord take place before that?

Don't remember it being mentioned. Like I said I'm pretty sure you're right and it's M34-ish.

It could be a development in his character, it could be a retcon.

I am away from home at the moment (I have a computer but I don't know how much time I will have on it) but here is a rough outline of what I was thinking for a rewrite

• Flat-Earth Atheist: In the early years of his damnation, Fabius clung to a twisted version of the Imperial Truth, refusing to believe that daemons or the Chaos Gods were self-aware creatures. Some background material indicates that, by the 41st century however he has come to except their existence, even if he still sees no need for their patronage.

That's a good way to put it.

Cool. I'll make the edit then.

Looking at the trope list, the Arbitrary Skepticism entry may need to be reworked as well, to go along with this new version.

Hmm. I missed that (I tend to work on individual entries at a time) but does that count as an example anyway or would Nay-Theist be a better fit as it involves gods rather than the supernatural/strange in general. I will comment it out for now anyway.

Seems like they'd be a better fit for the Chaos Gods page to me.

Cool, I've moved them over. I was also thinking of changing the formatting of the various individual gods section little if/when I have the time to the following:

Folder 1: Chaos God & his realm

Folder 2: Daemons of the God

Folder 3: Daemon Engines of the God

Folder 4: Notable Daemons

Seems reasonable.

Probably yes. I had meant to do it when that page was created but totally forgot.