Given the sheer number of entries on the Characters page, do you think its time that it get divided into separate pages? I'm thinking "Main Characters" (Dovahkiin, Dragons, Housecarls, Greybeards, Blades, Heroes of Skyrim), "Civil War" (Jarls, Stormcloaks, Empire, Thalmor), "Factions" (The Companions, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Daedra), "DLC Characters" (Dawnguard faction, Volkihar, Other Dawnguard Characters), and "Other Characters" (Followers and territorial characters).
Edited by Kimarous Hide / Show Replies
Agreed, that sounds like it'd be a good way to be preemptive on further DLC as well. But it might be a good idea to potentially break up the Daedra from the Factions and pair them up with the relatively few Divines quests as well. (Including the old Nordic pantheon)
Civil War, personally, would also go under Factions. The only unfortunate thing to all of this is that I cannot personally do this, I don't know how to.
The page is now refusing to accept new edits.
Yeah, I think a split is in order.
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This page needs splitting ASAP. It's at well over 700,000 characters long; the server starts having trouble at 500,000, when edits sometimes won't save or they blank the page. I don't know how to split it, since there are many folders and I have no experience with the game.
Edit: Okay, it's been split into five subpages, most of which are roughly the same size and none of which are going to be problematic any time soon. Thanks for doing that, lu!
Edited by Telcontar That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
Perpetually Confused
Created entries for the two main factions of Dawnguard, but where do we put characters whose allegiance depends on the player's faction? Im thinking of the Moth Priest in particular, since the dragon at least fits under "Dragons"
Edited by Ghilz Hide / Show Replies
Possibly "Other Dawnguard Characters"?
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There was an Edit War going on earlier. So let's settle it here. I personally don't think it counts.
Ulfric Stormcloak
It's All About Me: Let the Dragonborn do it. It would make a better song. That's right. His last thought weren't on his men (some of them that might still be alive), his land or the consequences of his acts, but his friggin' legacy which he built on the corpses of hunderds (if not thousands) of Nords, Imperials and Elves.
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I agree that it doesn't count. While there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Ulfric is not as selfless as he'd like others to think, asking to die in a certain way doesn't sound very selfish to me. Also, the tone its written in is rather rude.
For all to see, a tidbit made by Michael Kirkbride that is suspected to be the source of the Thalmor's modus operandi. First, because it fits quite well from what we've seen, and second, it would not be the first MK tidbit that's been canonized. Heimskr's "I breathe now in royalty" bit is another such example.
"What appears to be an Altmeri commentary on Talos:
To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.
To achieve this goal, we must:
1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.
2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.
3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit. "
"To Kill Man is to reach Heaven". "With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed". "Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility". They want to erase men from existence.
And in any case, if "semicanon" is not to be cited, the "Well Intentioned Extremist" bit in question would be struck anyway.
Edited by MadCat221 Hide / Show Replies
The Remove Man from the Pattern of Possibility? Think about it, if you simply wipe out all Men, they're already wiped from existence.
So, why remove their possibility? As the text says, to forget about them. Specifically, to forget the idea of Mundus. Men, whether their culture supports Lorkhan or not, are mythically pro-Mundus. Even what would become Redguards fought against the Aldmer. Make it seem like Men never existed. Make it seem like their pro-Mundus ideology never existed, to prevent et'ada from recreating it.
Edit: Oh, I almost forgot. By "forgetting Man" I mean resetting everyone's mindset back to pre-Mundus existence, rather than destroying the soul of what were Men.
Though it allows for fun games, many cultures of Mundus do not actually like it. It causes suffering.
Edit 2: I think people are forgetting the extremist part of things, though. Their methods aren't good, and nor do I support the actual goal. But it's the fact that killing Man is the method, not the goal that matters. And the goal is to escape from a prison where most people eventually die.
Edited by SilentColossus
Oh, so basically the Thalmor hate the fact that they're mortal? BOO HOO HOO. That just makes them even more petty in that they seek to become immortal at the cost of existence itself.
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Except they aren't destroying "existence," at least from their point of view. They seem to think they'd exist, still. In a better way. But for all we know they might cause a huge mess. They're destroying Mundus, which they find to be a cruel, embarrassing existence. A prison that they think can be escaped.
From the point of view of their culture, Lorkhan destroyed existence. The anti-Lorkhan Redguards even call the world of Satakal, the one Sep (that's what they called Lorkhan) tricked them into leaving, the "real world."
Edit: Again, the actual goal isn't that bad. I probably wouldn't like it, but half of Tamriel seems to miss pre-Mundus existence. It's the horrible methods that make them evil (which is why the Thalmor need to be destroyed). Still, their goal (destroying man is what makes them extremists) isn't that bad. Hence why I think the trope fits.
Edited by SilentColossus
There's another stumbling block to that, and it's petty, I'll admit, but still: the heroes have to agree with them. On some level, the good guys have to admit something about their efforts is worthy, just not worthy enough. And I highly doubt a human or beast character would EVER agree to being wiped from the face of existence just for elves that hate them.
Also, it's still self-interest. Basically they're saying, "Fuck everyone else, we want to explore!" They're still out to destroy everyone else for their own satisfaction. It just doesn't fit for me.
EDIT: Also, out of curiosity, since orcs are technically elves, would they be 'set free' by this plan too? (As you might tell, I'm not exactly a scholar of lore. I just play the games.)
Edited by Tahaneira
Humans and the beast-races aren't really the "heroes" though. They wouldn't agree with the plan mostly because they view Mundus as a good place.
Humans would be destroyed, but only in the sense of them having their memories wiped. Elves would have their memories wiped too. Sure, it's like death, but the Altmer want to end the idea of dying forever. Lorkhan brought death back into the universe after Akatosh (that is, Auriel) ended it.
This is in important read. Though I'll admit the Altmeri creation myth is bloodthirsty and racist.
Edit: We don't know how the orcs view it.
Edited by SilentColossus
"The Purge: At least one survivor of a Valenwood purge agrees to help the Dragonborn break into the embassy because the Thalmor murdered his family... according to the Blades. Thalmor sources hint that it was the Blades that killed his family. Otherwise, there are no mention of these purges."
Okay... what's the source?
I'm sorry, but the Well-Intentioned Extremist bit under the Thalmor is bullshit. There is no way omnicide could ever be considered a good thing. The Thalmor are just selfishly trying to become gods at the expense of existence itself.
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Incidentally, where did that stuff about the Thalmor's true motives come from? I was never able to track down a canon source.
What's precedent ever done for us?
It's technically semicanon: One of Michael Kirkbrides BGSF lore forum musings (second one from top here: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride) fits in with the activities of the Thalmor very well, lending strong evidence that this is the motive. Consider that Heimskr's preachings include a formerly also-semi-canon retcon explanation by Kirkbride on how Cyrodiil went from being described as jungle-like to becoming temperate forest in Oblivion (his "I breathe now in royalty" spiel: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-headed-talos).
The "Altmeri Commentary on Talos" is written from the perspective of a man-hating high elf. The Thalmor are man-hating high elves. It states "remove the upstart Talos from the mythic". How do you kill a god? You stop belief in him. Talos worship is banned by order of the White Gold Concordat.
Edited by MadCat221
I'm considering grabbing all the (admittedly few) Thalmor characters and lumping them under a Thalmor faction folder. Considering how comparatively important the Thalmor are to the setting, I think it warrants it. Thoughts?
Okay, how exactly is "Looking for my husband Nazeem? You should check the Jarl's backside" indicative of anything more than Nazeem being a brown-noser? Is there some other line? I seriously think you're just over-reading into it, people. Everything else about Nazeem himself paints him as a haughty elitist suck-up.
Edited by MadCat221 Hide / Show Replies
Okay, I love Space Core as much as anyone else, but he's not an official character in Skyrim. I don't know that he should be here, since he can only appear with a mod.
Edited by NanoMoose You know, if I could click you, you wouldn't know a moment's peace.
I propose that the "Heroes of Skyrim" section be renamed "Posthumous Characters", moved further down the overall list, and include other figures like High King Torygg and Olaf One-Eye.
With the gradual increase of court members (stewards, court mages, and housecarls), do you think they should get their own section instead of being lumped with "Other Characters"?
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Yes. In fact, I'm probably going to add a subsection for general housecarl tropes, since their dialogue and reactions are practically identical, with only slight variation.
Irileth's quip about being "the very soul of caution" is listed as a Blatant Lie. Is there any point in the game when she comes across as particularly foolhardy?
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Mostly, I think because it contradicts her usual statements, which are closer to the standard blood-and-guts Nord thinking than Dunmer caution. Of course, she could also be referring to her habitual paranoia.
Edited by Tahaneira
To whoever keeps insisting on adding Wuuthrad as the end-all-be-all weapon: please stop. It is not the uberweapon. It has a two pound advantage over the daedric battleaxe. It has very, very little damage increase. It is horribly inferior with even an average score in blacksmithing. And the damage bonus to elves - one-fifth as much damage again - disappears with the aforementioned blacksmithing upgrades. And daedric axes can be enchanted just as easily as Wuuthrad. I realize it, and its effect, are unique, and that it can be acquired very early in the game. That doesn't make it the best.
Please stop worshiping it on the page unless you can coherently explain to me why it is so badass.
Edited by Tahaneira
Given that the Blades aren't technically part of the empire anymore, and that the Greybeards tab has only one entry, why don't be move them together with the Heroes of Skyrim and instead relabel it "Dovahkiin's Allies" or "Main Allies" or somesuch?
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If Arngeir is the only tropeworthy Greybeard then such a measure should indeed be taken regarding the Greybeards.
Removed entry about Ulfric being a Manchurian Agent for the Thalmor because it would require him to have been brainwashed and given a trigger. The dossier says nothing of the sort. He was, at most, lied to about the significance of the information he held and later contacted by the Thalmor in an unspecified way about an unspecified subject(something to do with the Markarth incident). Being manipulated doesn't qualify someone for this trope.
Edited by McSomeguy
crazy and proud of it
About High King Torygg being a child: Teenagers can have beards and wrinkles, especially if they grow up in a warrior-oriented culture in harsh cold lands. There is also cultural and legal childhood, for instance in the United States serving in the military was not enough to be a legal adult, a great point of contention during the Vietnam War. Thus, there were soldiers with pretty big beards and lots of wrinkles due to combat stress who were still not allowed to vote. Warrior cultures tend to require that a man has killed someone else and/or has "done his duty to his wife" to qualify for adulthood as well.
Edited by ssfsx17 Hide / Show Replies
Last but not least, just because people look a certain way in Sovngarde does not mean they looked that way in life.
It's not getting much discussion on the sub-page, so maybe it'll get a bit more attention here: Do Housecarls really belong in the "Main Characters" page? The only one that has even a tangential relation to the main quest is Lydia, and that only occurs when you get named Thane of Whiterun and get a housecarl. None of them have a special story, and none of them have any relation to the main quest besides Lydia's tangential connection.