Discussion Characters / FateGrandOrderBeasts

I’d say at this point Olga Marie in general should get her own page.

Oh, I completely agree, she has so much material to cover that she deserves her own page.

I was the side in favor of an unified Koyanskaya page, so I’m obviously in favor of an unified Olga Marie page as well.

I see, well, I'm definitely in favor of both Koyanskaya and Olga Marie getting unified pages, especially considering Berserker Morgan has an entire page dedicated to her.

My proposal is to reorganize the index so this page isn't in the Servant category (since Tiamat/Camazotz/Kiara/Fou/Daji are plainly not Servants when they manifest) and moved to the antagonists page, then create a new Beast (Servants) page when someone else besides Draco is released in the class.

Works well enough I suppose.

It's been three days and there seem to be no objections to my idea, so I'll be editing the indexes now. In addition, I plan to be editing anything that refers to a Beast's "sin" (理 in the original Japanese) as such out for two reasons.

1. Beast VI/S's Incarnadines are intended to embody the Seven Deadly Sins. This will only create confusion for future readers as to why one Beast has a "Sin" and then a further seven Christian Sins bundled with her, so that needs to be cleaned up ex post facto.
2. It's been brought to my attention that "Sin" for 理 has never been an official translation in the NA profiles for any Beast. Per wiki policy, official translation takes precedent over fan translations and so the term can't be used anyway on pages like these.

Fate likes to play coy with whether or not Tamamo is Daji, due to her current Caster self being the result of her being summoned by a benevolent Master like Hakuno Kishinami.

In her official (self-described) backstory in Fate/Extra, Tamamo was born as a girl named Mizukume. She fell in love with the retired Emperor Toba, but one day she suddenly sprouted fox-ears and a tail, which she was able to hide for a month. Then Toba fell ill and an onmyoji investigating the cause falsely accused her of being the evil nine-tailed fox-spirit Daji, who had brought ruination to China and India by seducing rulers and driving them insane. Hunted down and reviled for her Little Bit Beastly appearance, she slaughtered an army of soldiers to defend herself but was eventually killed while trying to repent and apologize. However, in both Fate/Extra and subsequent games it's strongly implied that Tamamo is lying about her innocence: When she was summoned by her malicious previous Master she was unrepentantly evil, she frequently makes allusions that she's not as innocent as she claims, and has yandere tendencies that she refers to as Harlot Mode. It's also revealed that Tamamo's official backstory is an Unreliable Narrator:

Fate/Extra CCC introduces Tamamo's original nine-tailed self, the Golden White Face, which is one of Daji's monikers. Golden White Face is revealed to be the malicious aspect of the Shinto goddess Amaterasu, who Tamamo is a bunrei/Divided Spirit of, and is stated to have been an Evil of Man with the potential to become a Beast-class entity — all-but outright stating that Amaterasu is Daji. It's also stated that if Tamamo regained all nine of her tails she would relapse into evil and become a world-ending calamity once more. In Fate/Extra CCC, Tamamo regrew all nine of her tails through Taoist sage training, but cut all but one of them off — creating the Tamamo Nine in the process.

And then Fate/Grand Order came along. First Koyanskaya claims to be Tamamo Vitch (one of the Tamamo Nine) & Daji, which is revealed to be a lie. Then Daji is stated to have been the Beast of Collapse 3000 years ago and Tamamo Cat (another of the Tamamo Nine) outright states that Tamamo is Daji and fled to Japan after rampaging across China (twice over) and India. Then Taigong Wang is revealed to have killed Daji, which doesn't mesh with Daji being Tamamo or Amaterasu, unless Daji is a separate avatar if Amaterasu — who is billions of years old.

This chain of events is quite out of order. The first mention of Daji comes in Fate/Extra week 5 where the Chinese Li Shuwen calls Tamamo by the name Daji and she takes offense to him equalling the two. In the same game, her character arc is about her playing coy with her past until she ultimately has her big moment of honesty and unveils her backstory as an avatar of Amaterasu who started to serve Emperor Toba when she reached the age of 18 (thus being 22 centuries too young to be Daji). She's not framed as an Unreliable Narrator in /Extra yet, as she couldn't because such implications would make her whole character fall apart.

It's CCC that casts the first doubt into Tamamo's story, as we get to directly meet Konjiki Hakumen, the aramitama of Amaterasu that serves as Tamamo's oomoto. Konjiki Hakumen speaks making no distinction between Tamamo and Daji, but Hakuno confronts Tamamo's origin by asserting that Tamamo is her own person.

Extella is indeed the game that plays the most into it, with Tamamo's Collapse Mode directly referencing Daji's part in the etymology of the word 傾国 and Hakuno joking that she's practically admitting that she's Daji through her actions.

Lastly in Fate/Grand Order, we not only directly see Daji's execution, but also have a discussion between Tamamo Original and Tamamo Cat on the topic, where Original denies being the same person as Daji, while Cat insists all foxes derived from Konjiki Hakumen are the same fox. This debate is not framed as a refutation of either side's lie, but as a divergence of opinions based on a difference of views on what constitutes being the same being.

Ultimately, the series never outright spells that the foxes are separate avatars of Hakumen because it keeps using that as a point of debate about the nature of spiritual identity, but it set events up in a way where a single incarnation's direct continuity is impossible.

Unfortunately the only game in the series I've directly played is Fate/Extella Link, which doesn't focus on Tamamo or her past. Most of my info was gotten from the wiki — which does its best to meticulously cite everything using quotes either from the games, from supplementary materials, or from interviews —but presents the intel out-of-order from how it's revealed in the series itself.

While CCC plays coy about it, Fate/Grand Order definitively disproves Tamamo and Daji being the same individual. It seems to support both Daji and Tamamo being separate Divided Spirits of Konjiki Hakumen, who as Comun mentioned is Amaterasu's aramitama (the wrathful aspect of a kami, for those unfamiliar with Shinto) though they are their own individuals nevertheless — or at the very least that seems to be the interpretation most fans have agreed upon.

One comment I came across compared Amaterasu's relationship to Konjiki Hakumen, Tamamo, and Daji to the relationship between Sakura, BB, Passionlip, and Meltryllis.

Seems fair to me.

'"Threat to Humanity" is something that comes from outside the Human Order and has the potential to eliminate it completely'

Then what the hell is Composite Deity Gorgon? This is sort of prime example why Threat of Humanity trait is so weird: Regular Gorgon doesn't have that trait, Tiamat or the Lahmu don't have that trait, but somehow Composite Deity Gorgon has it? There is also the whole "Foreign God itself is a Beast", but we don't know enough of their backstory to say anything.

Yeah, the Foreign God being Beast VII is definitely too much of a mess to call.

I didn't think Composite Deity Gorgon had that trait; she wasn't on the list I consulted before and while writing that. Give me a second.

Yep. There it is, a weird outlier. Alright, yeah, I guess I don't know as well as I thought I did, though I still think that in the case of literally every other Beast with actual gameplay the rubric fits. Best I can say is maybe it's because when Tiamat gets involved Babylonia becomes Mesopotamia? But even then, it messes with the rubric because Beasts normally aren't Threats to Humanity.

the way I read it is:

Beasts are motivated by love for humanity. I believe the Nasu logic is that any kind of love means that they either inherently hold back or can come around to humanity's viewpoint. Unlike the below category, they do not intend for human deaths for the sake of human deaths with almost all of them ascribing their plan out of a desire for humanity to change under their emotionally myopic viewpoints.

Threats to Humanity are either a.) Composite Deity Gorgon who desires complete human annihilation as vengeance for her treatment, b.) Oberon who desires complete annihilation of the Human Order for how they treat stories and also doesn't really feel love, c.) incomprehensible aliens that cannot be discerned to have a full motivation for bleaching of the planet or other matters at this point (Trees, Foreigners, or related Outer God enemies), d.) animalistic beasts that cannot really be ruled out to be sapient as they wreak destruction on such a massive scale out of pure instinct and inertia (Faerie Calamities)

Mech-Eli has it because Mechagodzilla memes.

EDIT: Have edited my statements for clarity.

Beasts being motivated by "love for humanity" strikes me as weird since, according to Nasu, Aŋra Mainiiu was a Beast candidate during the time he was merged with the Greater Grail but desires nothing less than the annihilation of humanity and is described as hatred personified due to having been tortured into madness and wished into being the incarnation of "All the World's Evil".

He outright says he likes humans in the sense that he sees them as a food source in his My Room conversations.

I am now comfortable removing it.

All the Beasts here are to represent the unplayable versions so it's kinda a lateral move to put her in Arcade, so leaning towards no IMO.

Frankly, we actually know very little about Draco as a Beast and how she relates to what Arthur has said about Beast 666 to give a solid answer. Like the story literally goes like Draco reveals to be Beast VI, then immediately drops you into a raid that lasts for a month. We have no idea how she fits into the supposed L/R split Beast VI is supposed to have. Hell, if Arcade is going to have a Final Singularity, it might take even longer to get definite information about her.

Wait and see is my answer. Her profile even jokes that she came out before she was supposed to, as a spy or something. There’s a lot of missing information.

I'm pretty confident about V, but that shouldn't go on the page until we actually see her as a Beast.

As of now, it seems like she this, plus all of the evidence and being dubbed "Prized Beast", but because it hasn't been outright stated yet, let's keep "Beast V" as ambiguous as possible. For all we know, it could just be a Red Herring.

In fairness, Babylon was rushed out under the door, and many important story beats are either left implicit or not mentioned at all outside of Nasu's blogs and Q/As on the subject.

Not true at all but then I don't go to his blogs and Q/As so they're might be some things there that are not in the game. Still, plenty of the story beats, and info on Tiamat.