Gun Porn!

I always though that /k/'s jokes were over the top over the G36.

The G36 Melts, the XM 8 looks like a fish and the F2000 looks like a boat.

HK guy: So were tasked with supplying the Bundeswehr with our new G36s so what do we do?

HK CO: We advertise how good our rifles are and cut corners at production. It isn't like the Bundeswehr will fight anyone or anything over fears of being called Nazis again! So I don't expect them to actually use our guns besides training. Also just make a piston AR and charge the US Market double the price for our "German Engineering!". We also don't sell to civies so no worries with the American bubbas actually using our guns!

[Applauses]

HK guy: But what if the Americans drag us in one of their interventionist campaigns? Couldn't we just fix the issues and deliver a functional rifle like we did for the Brits?

[HK guy gets thrown out of the window]

I wonder if Uppote newer episodes and mangas will make as much fun of the G36 as it does with Elle.

edited 25th Apr '15 8:00:45 PM by AngelusNox

In other words.

The Bundeswehr didn't specify a "must be accurate after X rounds fired" requirement, because the poor optimistic fools were expecting basic competence. (Must've been Bavarians.)

Heckler interpreted this to mean "five mags", which is a small fraction of what most other assault rifles can do.

The rifle starts shooting wild after two.

One question for Heckler and Koch.

This positively baffling. The Hk 416 is reliable and so accurate the Marines are making it a DMR. The G-36 is a melty piece of shit. Even the high maintenance MP-5's were far more reliable after 10k rounds.

They are making SAW version of the 416, it gotta tell something about its reliability.

I'm plenty convinced the M27 is gonna be the USMC's general issue (modular) rifle when their sequestration bloviating finishes. Accessorized according to the needs of the mission on a per Marine basis. The support gunner gets a bipod, the grenadiers get M320s or M203s, the marksman gets a fancy scope, etc.

It'd make more sense than throwing all their M249's in the trash.

The corps isn't ditching the 249's though. They are keeping them at the units to begin with. The Marines are apparently still somewhat hoping the caseless cartridge LSAT works out.

^ That's why I'm convinced of that conclusion about the M-27. It's because they aren't throwing the SAW's in the trash when the M-27 was originally adopted to be a SAW replacement.

Could be. Just have to wait and see what their next budget requests brings down the line. If they start ordering a few more thousand M-27's sure. As it is though there are not enough for Corps with current orders.

Sometimes it helps to know about H und K's history, and that of the Bundeswehr. Basically, if the latter organization hadn't cancelled the order for this:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/de/hk-g41-e.html

which is a sweet G3 in 5.56mm NATO in all intents and purposes, they wouldn't be in this fucking mess to begin with. When I was still in green skin I wanted this more than anything after they took away my SLUR.

Isn't the G41 the economic equivalent of the G36 at its time? The Bundeswehr probably is still going to use HK guns - the 416A5 or some new variant with minimal differences.

Days ago, a jihad stabbing occurred in Xinjiang and a policeman was killed despite shooting the attacker 5 times at almost point blank with his 9mm QSZ 92, before the knife enters him. This seemed to be as big a scam in China as the G36 thing - our 9mm ammo is supposed to have higher initial velocity and stopping power than most American and Canadian market types. Maybe we'll start using .45 soon.

Obligatory "don't worry it is only 9mm joke"

Was this during the attack back in November, or more recently? I'm having some trouble finding the incident on China-watching sites.

I can't help but think back to that FBI study that concluded the differences in stopping power between pistol rounds were minimal, the myth of the .45 notwithstanding. So it seems at first glance that not even hot 9mm loadings could've done much.

Capacity is queen, shot placement is king, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin.

The human body is a fickle mistress for the shooter who is trying to kill it. Even if you get shot placement correct you may still not drop the person you are shooting until they drop you. Indeed, people have actually survived heart shots or head shots and gone on to make a full recovery.

Outside of Hollywood movies what you are trying to do is not "shoot to kill" but "shoot to stop", that is to stop the person you are shooting from doing anything back to you - which is why you see a lot of shooters emptying their magazines into the person they are in combat with.

One of the factors making actually killing someone with firearms with only a couple of shots much more difficult than it would appear is that people as a whole are much bigger, heavier and fitter than they were when the majority of hand-gun and rifle rounds that are used today were designed.

So you're saying we need to make a new line of bullets for tall buff people?

^ I believe they're called .30-06 Springfield.

In a pistol?

We's doing this Obrez-style, I see.

Damn right we are. Oberz Mosin is the best self defense weapon of them all.

If you hit them they're dead and if you miss them it's ok because you've just set them on fire with the muzzle flash.

TFB Tries The G-36 Controversy.

They had no deviation from the control and they admit it might be a fluke given the almost no range test they did. They're gonna try again later with some 100-200 meter shooting.

And in other gun porn:

This Rocket Launcher Was The US Army's Last Flamethrower. (The 202 FLASH was a beast.)

The US Army Had A Lever Action Rocket Launcher. It wasn't very good compared to the Super Bazooka.

Not really new bullets, no. We've had Glaser Safety Slugs and Hydra-Shok bullets in handgun and some rifle calibres for decades. Those work quite well in shoot-to-stop scenarios as they dump all their energy into the target near-instantaneously, reducing risk of over-penetration which a lot of hot 9mm loads have had in actual use scenarios. You do have to make sure you're hitting the right person though as most folks who get shot with them tend to die or at the very least are hard as fuck to save in the Emergency Room.

They are not, obviously, cleared for use in military applications thanks to the Hague Convention against expanding ammunition but they have seen use in the law enforcement arena.

Likely ninjad for parts of this.

There are a few things to remember when shooting someone. As others pointed out capacity is great so is shot placement. Unless you severe the spinal connection of the section of the spine above the shoulders or severely damage or destroy the central nervous system in the brain there is no guarantee a shot will drop an attacker on the spot.

Even if you drill the heart center mass, perforate both lungs, or get the rare heart and lung shot the person shot can live up to 30 seconds before dying. Even if they are shot with a full sized rifle. Short of some really big rounds most bullets are not actually a guarantee to stop or kill without landing them in the right spot. Even then in some cases prompt and immediate medical attention can possibly save them. There are number of additional factors and conditions that can affect the outcome or effectiveness of a shot. They are a mix of mental, emotional, and biological factors outside of the control of the shooter and partially outside the control of the person being shot. For example being revved up on natural adrenaline and other hormones in the body can improve a persons resilience despite fatal injuries. In Afghanistan some of the insurgents would amp up on artificial adrenaline and other drugs.

A historically well known example was Wenseslao Moguel in 1915. He was shot 10 times point blank by 7.7mm Mondragon rifles and a 11th head shot. He not only regained consciousness but got up and fled to the US. Chumba Wumba even made a song about him. El Fusilado

Short of relatively large and powerful rounds like shot gun slugs. .50 BMG, and other big bullets most weapons are unlikely to be a one shot drop and stopped. Even then there is no absolute guarantee the big round will do it. There are accounts of people surviving being hit by a .50 heavy machine gun round and living at least for a short while after with some being able to fight back for a short while.

In the case of that knife wielder if he was amped up and ready to go maybe ingested some drugs beforehand he could have extended his survivability longer then expected. There is also the question of how close he was when he started the attack. There is something called the 21 foot rule. What that means is that the average human can close the distance between the attacker and the officer quickly so the officer needs a certain amount of space to successfully draw, maneuver, and engage the attacker. The shorter the distance the quicker the attacker reaches the officer.

Modern use of the drill involves a lot more movement and practice to get it down right.

If this guy launched his attack from a few feet away he was probably on the officer before the first shot hit him.

More on that matter.

Isn't that extremely rare to the point of fluke? .50 BMG has a reputation that no matter the platform it fires from, if you get hit you're going down with pretty much certainty of death. There aren't a lot of people who have survived .50 cal hits to the torso and/or chest/head. A lot of those that have survived got hit in the extremities like arms or shins and often lost that limb in the process.

Tom: It is pretty rare and the scant few it happens to are possibly the most unlucky bastards ever. There are a few who survived body shots. From what I understand they were usually in the lower torsoo usually in the guts and the bullet failed to damage the spine. The person was still pretty much fucked but they lived long enough to do something. Clean head hits are almost always fatal same for center mass hits. A graze can be survived though it still seems to do a fair bit of damage from pure energy transfer. It also depends on PPE. Typically though they are fatal but they can sometimes be survived depending on circumstances.

The point is in general terminal ballistics are not actually immediately predictable. A small bit of motion at the target could cause a bullet that would have gone between the ribs to shred an artery and the lungs to glance off and break a rib but not do enough to cause any serious injury. Other factors like what happens to the bullet in flight before hitting the target is also important. Most Spitzer Boat tail bullets tend to tumble a bit after striking past about 100yds in most cases. A tumbling bullet will behave differently then one flying straight on impact.

The only reasonably predictable part of a bullets ballistics is everything up to it leaving the barrel. Once it is out of the barrel environmental factors and factors at target can cause what would otherwise be a lethal shot into one that simply wounds or a what would be merely a wound into immediately fatal injury. Even fragments from a bullet striking a surface and breaking up can cause serious injury and death.

To come back to the 21 Foot Rule.

There are some modern caveats. I say modern because it hasn't seen a lot of study until fairly recently. First the basis of it is rather narrow and specific to a certain situation. More importantly it needs to be considered in context of the encounters with things like cover, terrain, and ready state of those involved.

Revisiting the 21 foot rule.

Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot rule valid? part 1 part 2

The gist is this. 21 feet is situational as enough or even not enough in varying circumstances. Though the second set of articles frames it in terms of both officer protection but also the legality of a shooting.

There was a good self defense vid that demonstrates using cover and maneuvering around terrain to keep an attacker at bay and prevent them from readily closing with a weapon.

edited 27th Apr '15 8:23:33 PM by TuefelHundenIV