It's a Gundam thread!

I'm just saying there's not much difference between that and Batman.

I don't think having a pacifistic message is wrong but it requires a really upbeat outlook on humanity to go with it. Gatchaman Crowds is an example of that.

Technically you're saying there isn't much difference between that and TDK, given that like all superheroes he's all over the place depending on who is writing (in Tim Burton's Gotham, for instance, the two barges would have blown one another apart before The Joker was finished his speech).

I don't agree at all, but this isn't a DC comics thread, and we've more or less had this discussion in private anyway.

edited 29th Jul '14 3:57:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'm pointing out that in TDK (and to a certain extent, Batman in general) the corruption of Gotham is the root by which evil takes hold; which I think in particular is similar to Gundam.

8404 Antonio CC, Mon, 28th Jul '14 3:59:32 AM

No, it's driving home the point that humans as a whole are not stupid/insane enough to do what they know will cause the destruction of everything.

Quick Gundam Unicorn ost question. What's the song playing here in this amv (spoilers for episode 4).

It's called "2nd Movement: MSG UC EP7" and it was from the final OST release, which had a handful of weird song titles like that.

edited 30th Jul '14 9:22:22 PM by ComicX6

I think something alot of you are forgotten is Gundam's primary audience of kids and teenagers and how it's idealism is meant to appeal to them. Remember that most of the lead characters are about 14 to 18 on average. Remember how Tomino railed in his works against the cynical adults with their lies and self-serving agendas who caused the wars. Remember how Gundam Unicorn banged on and on about the ideals of the young who still believe in infinite possibility that can change the world. In short, Gundam is trying to tell kids that yes, you too can stop war if you really want.

Yup, you certainly can. Of course, you'll have to kill who knows how many people to do so, and you might lose some dear friends in the process — heck, depending on the timeline, you might not have been able to stop war the first time around before the world went BOOM! — but hey, if you're willing to go through all of that pain and turmoil, you can still certainly stop war, kiddies.

edited 30th Jul '14 10:00:37 PM by kkhohoho

8429 It's supposed to be an humorous reference at how Amber proposed rewrite for the ending of SEED remind me of the ending of Char's Counterattack.

If that was what Unicorn meant by that, then it was a poor execution indeed.

"It's kind of funny how the Wing series doesn't believe its own pacifist stance works. "

There was like an entire episode to that. Relena didn't want the Sanc Kingdom to have a military but it was pointed out to her that how can they remain a pacifist and peace-loving country when the warmongers can just stroll in and take over?

Gundam Wing wants to be idealistic but its heroes are hindered by the fact human beings are stupid and violent.

Which is why it took a great man, Treize Khushrenada, a true hero for all Gundam, to step forward.

edited 31st Jul '14 10:09:59 PM by Nikkolas

Yes, who only massacred hundreds of people in a hilariously naive fashion to end all wars forevah and forevah.

Char's Counterattack now apparently available on Youtube for legal streaming, via Gundam Info. o_o

Mmmmmm. Delicious.

Oh god, I forgot how stilted the dialogue in this movie was. :P Still, watching Amuro tackle Char off his horse from a moving vehicle for a fistfight is always fun to watch. I love how the music during that ends up getting used when they actually have their climactic MS battle at the end of the movie.

Stilted dialogue (or perhaps just stilted translations) seems to be a mainstay of Gundam's.

"Which is why it took a great man, Treize Khushrenada, a true hero for all Gundam, to step forward."

Yeah, he stopped wars for a WHOLE YEAR, what an amazing legacy!/s

Treize is awesome, but his grand master plan of "Have a war to make people hate war" was pretty stupid and not viable in the long-term.

Now that we have CCA up on Youtube, think we should get G-Saviour next?

Depends. Not sure how much legal wrangling had to be done for Sunrise and Bandai to actually let it be streamed for free.

"Treize is awesome, but his grand master plan of "Have a war to make people hate war" was pretty stupid and not viable in the long-term."

That wasn't even close to a war. It was a minor military skirmish resolved with minimal effort.

" Yes, who only massacred hundreds of people in a hilariously naive fashion to end all wars forevah and forevah."

You have to break a few eggs my friend. A lot of great changes in history have resulted in millions of people dying and for far less noble causes.

edited 1st Aug '14 4:11:00 AM by Nikkolas

Wait, are you actually arguing that Treize's plan worked? The whole "fight a war so horrific that it make people hate war so much that they'll never want to fight a war again" thing has been tried before (albeit unintentionally). History shows that it works for about as long as it takes for a new crop of potential soldiers who haven't personally experienced how much war sucks to grow up — ie, a generation, or 20ish years. The fact that Treize thought he could solve the problem of war once and for all is both short-sighted and egotistical — and shockingly ignorant of history, for one who's supposed to be as intelligent and well-educated as Treize.

I think there's a simple flaw in yours and Ambar's and a lot of other people's reasoning here.

This is fiction.

Fiction meant for children.

Fiction where people thought giant robots were viable weapons.

I think reality is here <———————- and Gundam is here ————>.

Wing can have whatever moral or message it wants because it's broken with reality in practically every way, just like other Gundam series. Trying to apply our history to a series ike Gundam is foolish.

You either roll with the premise or you don't. Quite frankly I've met plenty of people who shrug off all of Gundam as stupid and unbelievable because of the robots and you can't blame them.

It seems to me a lot of Gundam fans have delusions about how immature and simplistic the franchise is.

EDIT:

O Another point about why some people hate Gundam is the fact all our heroes are Child Soldiers and no one seems to care or mind this at all. Oh sure, they might profess to care and mind it, but they still insist the kiddies go out and fight to the death.

edited 1st Aug '14 9:01:03 AM by Nikkolas

Treize is too romanticizing of the past to get why the past contains so many wars. The best you can hope for is MAD.

Look, I'll be the first to admit that Gundam isn't Shakespeare. But seriously? This is the same kind of logic that suggests that you should just enjoy the Transformers movies because they're just Humongous Mecha fiction originally meant for the kiddies. Everything has standards, and Gundam certainly has them, which also means that a fair degree of logic should still be applied. Other Gundam series have shown decent amount of logic. In fact, Afterwar X and Turn A outright condemn Treize's Plan by having wars in the backstory that blew anything Treize cooked up out of the water. Both wars devastated the planet, and yet, they proved to be far from 'the war to end all wars,' seeing as both shows eventually have warfare of some sort at some point.

Bottomline, I'm not going to turn my brain off or 'just roll with it', just because it's 'Fiction meant for children,' and/or 'Fiction where people thought giant robots were viable weapons.' I also enjoy Superhero comics, which are also (or at least were, once upon a time...) meant for children, but I still apply standards and basic logic to that. Heck, just about all Science Fiction is a 'break with reality' at some point or another, but some works of Sci-Fi are considered among the best works of fiction on the face on the Earth. And no, I'm not saying that Gundam can be considered among those truly great works. But just because something 'breaks with reality' doesn't mean you should just 'roll with it.'

edited 1st Aug '14 9:23:22 AM by kkhohoho

And why are Turn A and Afterwars right exactly? Do you have any idea how many pieces of fiction present contrasting beliefs and ideas? Are you suggesting that there is some inherent truth or rightness to one set of beliefs?

And I disagree. Nothing about Wolverine's origins make sense or Spider-Man's or God knows how many other superheroes. One of my favorite films of all time, Them!, makes no sense if you know anything about the actual effects of radiation.

And yet we go with it. Wolverine can have metal grafted to his bones, Spiderman is bitten by a magic spider, there are four turtles turned into humanoids by science goop and Atomic testing made giant ants.

If you make one concession, why not more? The story presents a premise, an idea, a message, and if it entertains you while doing so, what's the harm?

If "it doesn't make sense" was a legitimate criticism for fiction, there might not be any fiction.

edited 1st Aug '14 9:34:04 AM by Nikkolas