The Dresden Files

Well, there's the stuff he did to Iole's familly...

He did this to the family of the guy who taught him archery. He's that much of a dick.

I have to wonder what the original myth was. I mean, this was long, long before copyright enforced One Canon to Rule Them All status, so any fanboy or edge lord of the day could write whatever they wanted about the hero, and by our point in time they all wind up being legit. It'd be like someone today writing a Lot R fanfic where Legolas was totally the hero who won the day and Frodo was just some two bit whiner who accidentally dropped the one ring of power without even having his finger bitten off. And then everyone a few centuries down the road saying, "this totally could have happened."

I also wonder which version Dresden uses. Some versions have him ascending to Olympus to be with the gods, while others have him dying and joining his family in the Elysian Fields for a happy afterlife.

To be fair, that's not exactly unprecedented, Trojan fall for similar issues.

...Although, yes, that's pretty much dick move.

Hercules predates the Trojan War. He and Achilles's father were both Argonauts.

I am no expert but I think that whilst Heracles was a pretty decent guy by Ancient Greek standards, that still translates as Jerkass to modern sensibilities. Odysseus I think is possibly another of similar ilk.

Though the whole Heracles/Hercules thing has got me wondering... are the Greek/Roman gods actually completely separate beings in the Dresdenverse? Zeus/Jupiter, Mars/Ares etc. are technically the same but with differences due to cultural values changing....

Considering Santa/Odin, probably not.

Maybe that's depend on their, uh, "core" believers? Like, if you believe these two gods are actually same being, and your believe are basically primary religion, then, voila, these two are the same.

Actually, Roman loves adding local deities and integrating them ro their rank. Same practice also happened on Ancient Egypt. And pre-Islamic Arabia (that's how there's like, 3 major idol deity and countless minor deities in Kabah before Liberation of Mecca).

I never really got much into mythology so I am not sure if the Roman versions were seen as literally new or different gods who coincidentally happened to do very similar things to the Greek ones, or meant to actually be the same beings with new/'better' names.

It could even be a more American Gods type situation where there is Odin/Zeus/Brahma the avatar and being that interacts with humans but also the real actual gods who exist on another plane entirely.

Edit: my browser is being screwy and I don't know what thread this is actually going to end up on.

edited 26th Aug '16 4:09:47 AM by jakobitis

What with interpretario graeca, the Romans very much believed that the Greek gods and their own gods were the same, just under different names. This sort of idea was common back then.

And, I mean, shit, Jupiter and Zeus are etymologically the same deity.

edited 26th Aug '16 4:47:47 AM by Matrix

How did Percy Jackson do it again?

Two different aspects of the same god. Almost like having two beings inhabit one body, IIRC.

Yeah, and when their two different followings (Rome and Greek) clash, everyone but Apollo, Hecate, Aphrodite, and Nemissis (who all where more or less the same in Roman/Greek interpetations) end up being torn apart by the conflict.

I imagine it's less that and more that these deities are kind of syncretic and appear in multiple places across the planet at any given time, but humans just interpret them differently, Joseph Campbell-style.

So there's no Jupiter-Zeus divide because they're the same entity, for all intents and purposes - it's just two different belief systems giving power to the same guy.

Heck, the same deity might be Raijin. Or had been Raijin, before migrating west to become Zeus.

edited 26th Aug '16 11:08:33 AM by math792d

I think it depends on the entity, tbh. Like, Zeus and Jupiter are almost certainly the same dude, but lightning-throwing aside, they're unlikely to be Raijin, simply because I'd imagine most gods are localized to their worshippers. The idea that the attitudes and beliefs adopted by worshippers can alter a god is appealing to me, though—in the case of oldschool gods who get Alternate Character Interpretations, it'd change them into something resembling what their followers believed them to be. In the case of those AC Is being simultaneous, they'd have to either split the difference, or else assume a sort of Odin/Santa split where they switch, though I'd imagine that wouldn't happen except in more extreme cases.

I'm imagining gods as a continuum rather than discrete entities. Maybe the amalgamation of them all makes up big G. Would be fun towrite.

I'm still perfectly happy to imagine Big G is just some god who suddenly got really popular and is now flailing around trying to make sense of the universe.

It would certainly explain all the useless cryptic bullshit - he's basically covering for the fact that he has no fucking idea.

@Combination God: I think Erlking has explained once, that some entities basically can have several Mantle of Power (or something like that) to interract with their people and other Power. For example, Erlking can appear as either Erlking or D. Vadderung, depends on situation. As Erlking, he is submitted on Unseelie Court Rules, and answerable to Queen of Air and Darkness, and maybe having weakness to Iron. As Vadderung, he can handle Iron just fine, and can tell Mab herself to take her number and wait for appointment call.

While the Erlking probably has more than one mantle, Donar Vadderungs other mantle is Kringle (and maybe Odin? I´m not sure if Vadderung and Odin are supposed to be the same mantle)

'Donar Vadderung' is just an alias (it means 'The Thunder's Father'). Odin is just his mythological name.

Well, one of them. He had over two hundred names and kennings.

So I'd presume that Vadderung is what's left of Odin's mantle after he gave up much of that power to become mortal.

edited 27th Aug '16 3:23:37 AM by math792d

Is a lot of this stuff from short stories or something? Because I don't remember anyone actually explaining any of that in the main series. They remain mostly mysterious. Like we don't even explicitly know whether Vadderung is Odin, we just use context clues and Harry's guessing to say it's the most probable answer.

And yeah, the Erlking is JUST the Erlking, we haven't gotten any alternate mantle stuff on him yet, unless it's in some short story I haven't read.

Erlking is also the mythological Herne the Hunter, which is explicitly a separate entity in folklore. In Cold Days, Kringle drops his mask for a moment to show his face as Vadderung to make a point to Harry about Mantles. As for Vadderung=Odin, it is never stated outright on page, settling for overwhelming context clues, like the Valkyries/einherjar, Yggdrasil; Godlike Norse Mono-Eye with a spear, foresight and Hugin/Munin. Also, Jim confirmed in a WOJ that he is the original Odin, sans a great deal of power and enormous risk to continue interacting with the mortal world. He is still explicitly immortal, but very vulnerable in his current form on earth-someone could get lucky and punch his ticket if they were good enough. That would knock him out of the world for years, even decades while his essence reformed, and sideline him for the upcoming showdown as completely as if he had been killed outright.

If you haven't already, make an account on the Jim-Butcher.com forums and look around. There is a huge collection of WOJ; direct answers by the author every bit as canon as the stories, and cover numorous plotholes and unasked questions. Like the true purpose of the Archive, entities that could take Mab in a straight fight, and a great deal more.

edited 27th Aug '16 9:26:38 AM by ViperMagnum357

In Skin Game, Kringle, besides confirming that he and D. Vadderung is one and the same, also explain about Mantle and how it works. The explanation is similar with how Honor Harrington handle her position as Manticore's Admiral and Grayson Steadtholder. Or something like that.

I think I already covered that. In Skin Game, Kringle makes it clear that while he was obligated to show up when Mab called on Kringle, as Vadderung he would have been inclined and well within his rights to put her on hold indefinitely, even though it is the same person. The conversation draws a clear distinction between obligations between roles and how mantles can be only part of what someone is.

Ah, yeah, well, sorry. Just make sure by hammering things, y'know.

Jim had a Q&A recently where he talked about Harry's relationship with the White Council going forward.

Namely, they bumped Harry's threat level up to 'can't possibly go any higher.' Problem is, they can't bump him off without pissing off the Queen of Air and Darkness. But they basically think he's a step or two away from becoming the next Wizard Hitler.

Of course, he's still a member of the Council, because of the whole 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer' policy of the WC.

edited 29th Aug '16 4:13:38 AM by math792d