Fallout: New Vegas

Rex makes anything containing food flash green. But yeah, Boone's Spotter Perk and EDE's Enhanced Sensors are a fantastic combo.

He's free to choose to obey? That isn't contradictory to you?

He chooses to be. As do we all, long before any of your meaningless freedoms are presented

While I'm chiming in here as a fellow American, I suppose I'm a bit of an anomaly. I have no love for some delusion called "freedom." I value "life" which is actually a thing that exists.

The NCR's "American-ness" holds no appeal for me. As for Wild Card, a prominent liberal intellectual named EJ Dionne observed that Americans love the government when it can do stuff for them. Then it fails to do something for them and suddenly everyone whines about oppression or the need for freedom. The obsession with Rand's ideas, of bootstraps, is just a childish need to validate oneself. "I got here but it was all thanks to ME. NO ONE ELSE!" Some people are like that. I heard Rand taught herself how to read? Good for her. Otherwise, I'm sure most of these people attended public schools.

There is no freedom in the ability to be raped and murdered in your sleep because you chased away any real authority or security. The Wild Card ending is the worst. I suppose it's called Wild Card because that's the Courier? But really, it has a double meaning. It's a Wild Card ending because who the hell knows what will happen next.

Observation: My foray into RP Gs has convinced me a lot of people online have a natural enmity towards charismatic leader-based factions. On the more benevolent end, you have the Stormcloaks. On the malevolent end, Caesar's Legion. A bit more in the middle, Cerberus. All three groups have massive hatedoms for one reason or another but I think it ultimately does boil down to people just outright hating Ulfric, Caesar or TIM. They don't see the appeal or why anyone would follow and die for these people.

I think that's an American thing, too. It's why House is oddly popular for being an autocrat. He does not build his empire on the strength of his personality, because he's half-soulless machine already. The Lucky 38 is really a window into the desolate landscape that is his soul, I think. But my point is, even though he's a dictator too, people are more willing to support him because he's not building any sort of cult of personality, primarily because he doesn't need to.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:21:20 AM by Nikkolas

The Legion aren't exactly great about preserving life either. I've been to Zion, I've seen the White legs in action.

Not to mention, abstract ideas, like security, economy, freedom, are in fact, important, because they make the more concrete things, like life actually available and actually pleasant to have. And the Legion doesn't care about "life". The people in Nipton were doing just fine until the legion came a knockin and burned down all their homes and murdered all the civilians inside. I'd take a nest of Vipers next door over the Legion in the Mojave any day.

Not to mention the Legion has all but banned the use of medication. Except for the top brass, apparently. It's odd that anyone would argue against the value of "abstract" things and then wax poetic about a guy with a "personality".

The NCR brings about stability the most quickly because their economy isn't based on raiding and enslavement, and they have a very large network by which to distribute resources.

Wild Card could work with fully upgrade securitrons keeping peace, but the Courier and his/her friends would absolutely need some way to enforce rule of law, to keep away the Vipers, the Jackals, and the Legion. The biggest problem here, I must agree with Nik, here, is that there wouldn't be any way to establish an accredited institution of learning. The Mojave would not be able to get its own medics, architects, or engineers. They'd come to depend on the NCR for that sort of thing eventually anyway, since you meet all three types of those people from NCR. Oh wait, the Mojave WOULD have its own medics, I forgot about the Followers, and the Chem/Med brewing Khans. But yeah, the infrastructure in the Mojave would only continue to crumble unless you had extraordinarily good alliances with the NCR...

Everyone you're required to knock off in the NCR to pull off the Wild Card Ending are people locking the NCR into the Mojave wasteland in the first place. Unless the NCR's people are completely off their rockers, their replacements are already going to view the Courier in a positive light. Add in the bloody nose you force on the Legion, that's only going to get better. As long as trade's not destroyed, the NCR has no reason not to support an independent Mojave nation.

Chinabro here, I argue against the value of "abstract" things as well as charisma in a leader, which is why I go House, not Legion. Give me Singapore in the Mojave over the feel-good anarchy that is Wild Card, the mismanagement that is the NCR, and the Rapey Mc-Rape-land that is Legion any day. The best part is, House really just wants to go to space, which means that if you don't like it in New Vegas, you can just move somewhere else (like the NCR) or find some other small neutral community outside of it (like Zion, non-aligned Primm, or Goodsprings.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:54:21 AM by PRC4Eva

See, the thing is . . . NONE of the endings really gives a shit about the Mojave. It's just a shithole to them that happens to have important things in it. The NCR just wants the resources. House can't wait to leave for the stars. The Legion is obsessed with making New Vegas a shining capital city, while not wanting to really maintain the high tech tools that keep it running. And then the Wild Card where everything get isolated and broken apart.

The Mojave needs an ending where it's not being looted for water and electricity. Where it's not being trampled on for some other superstate being run by idiots. Where it's not being ignored by somebody who just wants to run away. And the game completely fails at that.

Ostensibly, the Wild Card ending could have the Courier running the Mojave. I headcanon that anyway.

Maybe a mod would help in this regard: simply remove all the endings period and just have you play after Hoover Dam.

In my first playthrough I usually just made clockwise laps around the Mojave clearing out Powder Gangers, Vipers, Jackals, and slavers. And assassins.

@ blkwhtrbbt

The Legion brings security. Everyone from Cass to Raul says the Legion bring order and peace to their lands. JE Sawyer agrees with them.

The idea of the Legion as making a "rape land" is fandom nonsense made up by people who have no real counterarguments against the Legion so they invent fanfiction. And if you can't form a valid counterargument against Caesar's Legion, that's kinda sad.

No, actually, literally everyone in-game says so. Including your precious Raul, Cass, and Caesar.

The women are used as cattle, and you actually get to see it when you wander into the Fort.

Denial is sad. Very sad.

The Legion only brings security if you are specifically useful to them as meat. The moment they can't directly use you anymore, they execute you. They have literally no respect for anyone. Ever. You can go make a fool out of Caesar's liaison to the Khans, and make him shout the truth for the world to hear in their camp. Right before they put that idiot down.

Besides. Rape is awful, but literally, slavery is worse. Slavery is rape applied to every aspect of life, not just sex. Even if they safeguarded their people against forced unwanted sexual advances, they'd still be treating people as chattel, purchasing people, forcibly separating families, and denying people their basic rights to life.

edited 14th Jun '16 9:16:50 AM by blkwhtrbbt

"No, actually, literally everyone in-game says so. Including your precious Raul, Cass, and Caesar."

I would like you to present a single line from Raul or Caesar about how women are treated.

"The women are used as cattle, and you actually get to see it when you wander into the Fort."

Slaves. Frontline Military fortifications do not represent day-to-day life in Legion lands.

edited 14th Jun '16 9:17:11 AM by Nikkolas

I dislike your condescending attitude a lot.

Sure, everybody says that. Oh wait, no, only Cass and Raul say that, however begrudgingly. And even then, they make things clear: Cass is not at all happy with possible Legion, since that means she can end up in perilous position.

Raul? Yes, he said that Caesar made Arizona a better place, but that speaks more about what kind of place Arizona used to be rather than Caesar's miraculous recovery of the place.

• The man forbids all kinds of medication.
• Women are a trading goodie unless they're lucky enough to be among the priestesses.
• All technology is forbidden as something that spoils men
• The man himself is a sociopathic loon and a hypocrite.
• A legionary, even the lowest one, can kill you if you so much as look at him funny (under Legion's law). All he'll get is some scolding.
• The man turned New Canaan into a burning crater out of petty spite.
• His subordinates are sleazy and/or murderous scumbags themselves, with an exception of Lucius.
• Caesar's Legion will collapse the moment Caesar dies and leave nothing but hell upon Mojave.

Dismissing just about every NPC in the game with dialogue about Legion - who all say that NCR might suck, but Legion sucks way worse - as "fanfiction" is nothing short of insulting.

You do realize there is such thing as Gory Discretion Shot? Take Our Word for It? There really is no defense of what the Legion is.

I believe Nikkolas once said they only defended the Legion because no one else here did.

That's still not a good reason. The Legion is not defensible.

edited 14th Jun '16 9:35:36 AM by Fighteer

Listen, it's very simple. You made a claim.

""No, actually, literally everyone in-game says so. Including your precious Raul, Cass, and Caesar."

This was in response to me saying the Legion will form a "rape land" as nonsense. As such, you said that Cass, Caesar and Raul all make comments about what the Legion will do to all the women under their power. I don't recall any such line, and I fucking love Cass and Caesar so I talked to them as much as possible. So if it exists and I'm just not remembering it, fair enough. But you also might just be making it up or remembering wrong.

I support the Legion because they're the best of a really sorry bunch. Or, alternatively, I support them because I like Caesar. I mentioned earlier House had no force of personality and that is a really big turnoff for me. I need someone who can...inspire me. House did no such thing. He's just kind of creepy. As such, even though he has better ideas than Caesar, I favor Caesar.

What is the point of presenting all these points? If you are trying to show how flawed the Legion is, no on ewas arguing that. I took issue with one point and one point alone.

The Legion has a score of haters who believe many incorrect things. First, that the Legion are a bunch of idiots armed with swords and hate guns. This is flat on its face bullshit.

Second, that the Legion will roll in, create a "rape land" and kill everyone. Legion ending proves this demonstrably false.

The Legion has enough problems without people inventing some.

Like Cruicifixtion and Caesar's need to persecute someone that he already pretty much killed.

Poor Joshua, I ain't gonna pretend like he was a saint but to have the Legion burn him, and then come in just to fuck up his tribe is excessive.

Yes, that was unnecessary. I also agree with the idea the Legion will probably fall apart after Caesar dies.

Listen, I don't actually literally support the Legion. If they existed and I could cast my vote for them or the NCR, I'd vote NCR. The Legion appeals to my Courier because my Courier is badass and awesome and has the luxury of such choices.

The only faction in any video game I've seriously supported - as in me, not my RP character - is the qunari.

edited 14th Jun '16 9:53:24 AM by Nikkolas

I understand, but the slavery and raiding in and of themselves are reason enough to no want the legion in the Mojave. Caesar might be charming, but that's only if you sycophant him. Contradict him, and he starts threatening you just like everyone else who doesn't like you. Besides, liking someone's personality isn't a good reason to put them in charge of a nation. I liked Joshua Graham, but if he ever tried to take charge of the Mojave....

Well, actually, I'd probably make him Minister of War or some shit cause damn that motherfucker does a damn good job. Maybe charge him with hunting raiders and chem dealers. But I would not put him in charge of making economic or social choices because the dude is crazy and he admits it.

I also was really creeped out by Ulysses. Like. I wanted to like him, but he really creeped me out. A lot.

Edit:

edited 14th Jun '16 9:57:55 AM by blkwhtrbbt

@Nikkolas, have you done a female Courier playthrough? Not saying you haven't, but there is a lot of dialogue about this that only shows up if that's the case. The conversations with Cursor Lucullus, Otho, and Silus (the centurion you interrogate in Camp Mc Carran) in particular go very differently if you're a woman, if I recall correctly. Anyway.

Regardless of how women are treated past the front lines— it's clearly stated a few times that they aren't permitted to be citizens or property holders, and that they can be given to high-performing Legionnaires as prizes, more or less— women in the path of the Legion itself are enslaved and raped. Since Caesar's plans for the Legion are to just keep conquering until there's nothing left to conquer, that's going to entail a lot of slaughter and rape before all is said and done. The question, I think, is whether or not you can live with that.

The ending where the Legion takes Hoover Dam does say that Caesar 'enslave[s] much of the population and lord[s] peacefully over the rest' (although that doesn't necessarily rule out rape of said slaves), but it does represent the return of 'civilization, as unforgiving as it was' in the Mojave. That being said, every ending in which Caesar dies shows the Legion falling apart, and even having helped treat his brain tumor, he's an old man— he's not going to live forever. Is his vision really worth the considerable cost if it just ends up collapsing on itself anyway?

Say what you will about the NCR, about pre-War democracy and its corruption. They've got staying power. They offer stability and security, and the price is a small (or not) amount of independence and a lot of money.

For my own part I usually back House (to the stars...!) or go Wild Card (give me liberty, or...you know the rest), though, so grain of salt and all that.

Anyone here ever side with Legion while using a female Courier? What would their in-character motivation be for doing that?

and My one and only run of New Vegas was with a female Courier.

As for why a female would join the Legion, Caesar, Vulpes and Lucius all treat you very respectfully, whatever your sex. Some grunts initially give you shit but if you get enough rep with the Legion, they will always address you with some formality and respect.

I don't think of my Courier as a "fuck you, I got mine" type.I loved Cass and sought her opinion on everything. One reason I liked her was she was actually pretty objective and didn't try to force you into anything. She made her feelings on both the NCR and Legion very clear but never once did she ride me for doing something and she even helped me kill Oliver and his goons.

Contrast with Boone, the debbie downer of the game. He can sit on his dinosaur until the cows come home. Jerk.

Anyway, my point is, my Courier did listen to other people and get input from them. It's just that women didn't come up particularly much. Caesar never really addresses it, even as he outlines the entire philosophy of the Legion. As for Silus, I think I just beat the fuck out of him. At least at first. I relented when he started to talk about how he deserted, not out of cowardice, but becaue he saw how Caesar was falling apart due to his tumor. In any event, I don't recall his words about women.

I don't defend the Legion but I support their inclusion in the game as a faction. Their depiction is just fine by me.

I'll be honest, saying that you support the likes of Ulfric, The Illusive Man and Caesar because of their charisma and willfully ignoring their methods and/or true personality just makes you sound like an NPC who can easily be swayed with a simple Charisma roll on the D20 with a penalty to resist.

The Stormcloaks are not supposed to be the evil side in Skyrim. RP considerations aside, that's grotesquely oversimplifying. All of the factions that you can work with have both negative and positive traits and the player is encouraged to see both of them.

The Legion, however, is clearly intended to be seen as the villainous faction in FNV.

Now, if you want to play as the badguys, that's great — have your character justify it in any way you like. It's how the game is meant to be played. But let's not make OOC arguments in favor of them, please. That's kind of disgusting.

edited 14th Jun '16 6:32:14 PM by Fighteer

Actually, they were SUPPOSED to be seen the same way the Stormcloaks are. As the heavily flawed dark gray faction. It's just that they weren't able to expand the map into Legion territory to show us what their civilian side is like. Like it or not, through most of history, and even today, armies have generally raped and pillaged along their path. The modern First World armies are a minority, not majority.

So judging Caesar's lands based on the Legion is an oversimplification that's been justified by not being able to see the lighter side of the faction. I'm not saying you can't judge them as evil. There's definitely enough there to label them that way. I'm just saying that wasn't the intention, it's just how things fell.

The only way I would ever back the Legion is if I could explicitly see my character gathering a strong core of people around him/her and stabilizing enough of Caesar's lands to pull through the resulting shitstorm that happens when Edward Sallow dies. And I'm more likely to botch the surgery, kill Caesar, and then talk Lannius into returning home if I do join them, because I'd rather see the Mojave and New Vegas pull through everything with a minimum of harm.