Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha

And her philosophy would probably have been different if she had been in a less forgiving series.

Yeah but that's not how a good philosophy should or should not be determined. The characters in the series aren't supposed to assume every antagonist they meet is king hearted by nature and merely misunderstood. Especially the ones that attack you without any warning (Vita). Even Nanoha has evil villains, it's just none of them have appeared until after the good guys were sure they had evil intentions.

edited 20th Apr '15 6:49:37 PM by Plund3r

Why are they not supposed to do that? And I'd rather say that the assumption they're making is that people can be reasoned with, rather than being kind-hearted.

It's pretty close to what's called Functional Genre Savvy. The characters act like they do and have the level of tolerance and expectations they do because of the story they're in. It doesn't really make sense to ignore that context if you're going to judge them how well that kind of mindset works within that context. What they're "supposed" to do is determined by the story.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:28:14 PM by AnotherDuck

What character has Nanoha reasoned with? Fate? Nope. She only went to the good side after Precia fell into the abyss. Vita? Nope. They became friends after Reinforce was defeated and Hayate's life was saved. The wolkenritter believed they were doing the right thing up until they got swallowed up by the book. I can't recall anything in Strikers or Force.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:10:40 PM by Plund3r

Assuming that every antagonist is just evil rather than somebody that, at the very least, can be reasoned with is not a good philosophy either. It's why people try to talk down hostage takers rather than just shoot them outright.

Nanoha acts in a pretty reasonable manner, try to communicate first, while defending herself. When communication fails, then she starts taking the offensive. Heck it's not even unheard of for people to do this in real life.

Subaru adopted around half the Numbers after Strikers. The rest are in prison. Also, Lutecia Alpine is now part of the gang in Vivid.

Also, Fate actually face-turned before Precia fell into the interdimensional interval.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:12:26 PM by EvaUnit01

Nanoha's magic is non-lethal so unlike protagonists who do not wish to kill people regardless of their intentions...Nanoha never has to worry about that. Why wouldn't subduing them before talking be the more rational choice?

@Eva: Actually, she didn't.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:12:35 PM by Plund3r

Because Nanoha is a kind-hearted person.

They formally joined into the Nakajima family. In my book, that counts as "close enough".

Unless you're referring to Fate. In which case, yeah, I'm pretty sure she did. She came to back Nanoha up against the drones, the two of them confronted and tried to reason with Precia one last time, and Precia laughed at them before going down into the spacial gap with Alicia.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:15:41 PM by EvaUnit01

Maybe she is, but there is no downside to beamspamming her opponent when it doesn't have any lasting affect on them. It just becomes a larger risk to herself when she tries to talk down an opponent who only wishes to do her harm.

Also, this is a quote to Precia from Fate right before Precia fell into the abyss: “I am not Alicia Testarossa…I may be just a doll you created. However, I…Fate Testarossa…was born and raised by you. I am your daughter! If you wish, I will protect you from anyone or anything in this world. Not because I’m your daughter. But because… you’re my mother!”

It was Precia's rejection and her death that convinced Fate to switch sides in the end.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:17:00 PM by Plund3r

In that case, we clearly have a differing opinion on what exactly constitutes a Heel–Face Turn.

Also, Nanoha just plain has the personal preference of trying to reason with people before she resorts to hitting them with a giant death beam.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:18:41 PM by EvaUnit01

Some people take badly to being blown up. Weird, I know.

The other thing is that Nanoha is, despite its Gundam pretensions, more of a cop show. Giving her opponents a chance to surrender and peaceably discuss their grievances rather than blasting them out of hand is in keeping with this.

You'll notice that those times where it's obvious that surrender is not an option they are capable of, like the Gadgets or even Precia's robots, Nanoha has no issue opening fire first.

x6 Wasn't it about two-thirds? Due was killed by Zest, while Uno, Tre, Quattro and Sette were thrown in jail like Jail.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:19:38 PM by HanabiraKage

I dispute that "6" and "8" represent a significant mathematical difference.

@Night: Dem trigger happy cops these days. But really, a cop would be acting in self-defence if they put a bullet into the characters Nanoha has tried to reason with. Which I'm not saying would be a good thing since they are obviously not bad people. But that's the beauty of Nanoha's magic. She doesn't have to worry about casualties.

@Eva: The scene may of been a heel face turn, but I don't believe for a second that Fate would have switched sides if Precia had accepted her. She said so herself, that she would protect Precia from anyone. And that includes from Nanoha and the TSAB.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:27:55 PM by Plund3r

Hmm. Notice how all the cyborgs that refused to undergo rehab were at least partially made from Jail's genetic material?

(except for Sette, who Quattro had asked to be void of "everything unnecessary", thus why she's a cold killer that's fiercely loyal to Jail)

edited 20th Apr '15 7:29:17 PM by HanabiraKage

Just because it won't kill you, doesn't mean it won't still hurt like a royal bitch, though.

Also, if Nanoha decided to try that "shoot first, talk later" thing, just you watch the Anti-Villain go "Why should I bother talking with you, when you just started shooting at me?!"

Remember: the villains can get away with doing dirty stuff because they're the villains, but the heroes Can't Get Away with Nuthin'.

Also, why does it have to be "one side vs the other"? Fate can only "belong" to one side, her mother or her waifu? Allow me to state my vehement opinion that such "us-vs-them" ideals are bullshit.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:29:57 PM by EvaUnit01

Eh, of the times we saw Nanoha uses STB...I really never got the impression that it hurts much at all.

And I'm not saying Nanoha should shoot first. Sure, reason with them before they try to hammer drill you in the face...But after that, the time for talking is over. Antagonist: "But you shot at me!" Nanoha: "Well, you did shoot me first..." I don't think an antagonist can argue with that.

For one thing, magic in Nanoha is not automatically nonlethal. It can be nonlethal, so long as the user wishes it to be. For a good example, Precia almost killed Arf with a thunder spell, and also killed those TSAB soldiers sent to arrest her.

On to the main problem, I for one, never see Nanoha worrying about her magic being nonlethal. I don't even remember anybody in the first season telling her that magic can be nonlethal. Even so, if she were to learn that her magic is lethal, I'd still think she'd approach the problem in the same way. It'd be no different from a police officer tasering a criminal, since tasers can be lethal too, yet police officers carry them around as a first resort to resisting criminals.

It definitely hurts. Refer to the training incident with Teana, as well as the fight against Vivio at the end of StrikerS.

Nanoha reasoning with characters doesn't mean Nanoha successfully convincing them to do what she wants. It means trying to reason with them. And that she has done with everyone she could.

Fate wanting to protect her mother isn't indicative that she's a villain. It's indicative that she doesn't want other people to harm her mother, and that she's willing to forgive her despite their past. It doesn't exclude talking her mother out of harming others so she can be safer herself, nor does it necessarily include attacking whoever her mother wants her to.

Thank you for articulating clearly, what I was unable to.

Also, remember when Reinforce casted SLB at Nanoha and Fate? They ran for the hills.

For one thing, magic in Nanoha is not automatically nonlethal. It can be nonlethal, so long as the user wishes it to be. For a good example, Precia almost killed Arf with a thunder spell, and also killed those TSAB soldiers sent to arrest her.

Yes, I know this. But it's irrelevant when an experienced mage can make sure their attack is non-lethal 100% of the time. I'm still not 100% sure Nanoha's magic can even be lethal in the 1st place. If it could be, why the hell is Quattro even still alive?

On to the main problem, I for one, never see Nanoha worrying about her magic being nonlethal. I don't even remember anybody in the first season telling her that magic can be nonlethal. Even so, if she were to learn that her magic is lethal, I'd still think she'd approach the problem in the same way. It'd be no different from a police officer tasering a criminal, since tasers can be lethal too, yet police officers carry them around as a first resort to resisting criminal

Tasers are for resisting arrest, not for armed assailants pointing a gun at you. Also if Nanoha's magic could only be lethal, she would either be dead already or she wouldn't be a mage. I honestly don't think Nanoha has it in her to kill anyone. Especially not misunderstood antagonists. And she's certainly not going to subdue her opponents without firing off her strongest attacks.

Also, why does it have to be "one side vs the other"? Fate can only "belong" to one side, her mother or her waifu?

In the eyes of Precia, yes, and that's all that mattered for Fate back then. Had Precia tried to appeal to her instead of rejecting her as cruelly as possible while in custody of the TSAB, Fate's loyalties would have still remained with her; so at that point you can't really say she has made her Face turn. It's only after that, when Fate has truly seen the kind of person Precia really had become, the turn was complete.

In contrast, after that, had Precia ever returned and tried to pull Fate back, odds were Fate would have rejected her regardless for the sake of Nanoha and her new family. That is where you can say she has truly made her turn.

Using what you mentioned: Nanoha is an experienced mage. Therefore she has full control over how lethal her magic is. That's why Quattro is still alive.

Quattro being alive does not automatically disqualify Nanoha's capacity to make her magic lethal. We will need Word of God or the characters themselves to mention that she can't before we are able to conclude that her magic is always non-lethal.

edited 20th Apr '15 7:41:45 PM by HanabiraKage