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dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#176: Jul 27th 2011 at 1:28:53 AM

Thread Hop

I personally believe that on paper, it would be best thing EVER. In Real Life? Hell naw, man. I find Democracy to be quite flawed (just try living in South Korea and NOT notice something like that), but tolerates it because...what else? There's no alternatives yet.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.
GameChainsaw The Shadows Devour You. from sunshine and rainbows! Since: Oct, 2010
The Shadows Devour You.
#177: Jul 27th 2011 at 10:11:19 AM

Democracy and Communism are not, necessarily, exclusive. (In fact, I don't think they're even supposed to be.)

The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
secretist Maria Holic from Ame no Kisaki Since: Feb, 2010
#179: Jul 27th 2011 at 10:41:16 AM

[up][up]Communist party rule is incompatible with democracy. Marxism isn't that good as well. The case can be made that all forms of socialism inevitably destroy democracy even if they have a trojoan horse of democracy.

Friedrich Hayek in The Road to Serfdom, argued that the more even distribution of wealth through the nationalization of the means of production advocated by certain socialists cannot be achieved without a loss of political, economic, and human rights. According to Hayek, to achieve control over means of production and distribution of wealth it is necessary for such socialists to acquire significant powers of coercion. Hayek argued that the road to socialism leads society to totalitarianism, and argued that fascism and Nazism were the inevitable outcome of socialist trends in Italy and Germany during the preceding period.[30]

Hayek was critical of the bias shown by university teachers and intellectuals towards socialist ideals. He argued that socialism is not a working class movement as socialists contend, but rather "the construction of theorists, deriving from certain tendencies of abstract thought with which for a long time only the intellectuals were familiar; and it required long efforts by the intellectuals before the working classes could be persuaded to adopt it as their program."[31]

Winston Churchill argued that socialism inevitably evolves into a totalitarian regime:

A socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.[32]

Several theorists have shown that bad economic theory leads directly to bad practice, and the two cannot be separated. For example, Milton Friedman argued that the absence of voluntary economic activity makes it too easy for repressive political leaders to grant themselves coercive powers. Friedman's view was also shared by Friedrich Hayek and John Maynard Keynes, both of whom believed that capitalism is vital for freedom to survive and thrive.[33][34]

Peter Self criticizes the traditional socialist planned economy and argues against pursuing "extreme equality" because he believes it requires "strong coercion" and does not allow for "reasonable recognition [for] different individual needs, tastes (for work or leisure) and talents." He recommends market socialism instead.[35]

Objectivists criticize socialism as devaluing the individual, and making people incapable of choosing their own values, as decisions are made centrally. They also reject socialism's indifference to property rights.[36]

TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971
myrdschaem Since: Dec, 2010
#180: Jul 27th 2011 at 10:50:52 AM

For the last time, Soviet Russia is not communism. And claiming that it leads to faschism is a best a distortion of historic facts. Could we leave the N-word out of this, please?

secretist Maria Holic from Ame no Kisaki Since: Feb, 2010
#181: Jul 27th 2011 at 11:04:34 AM

See also: Anti-Stalinist left

Communist countries, states, areas and local communities have been based on the rule of parties proclaiming a basis in Marxism-Leninism, an ideology which is not supported by all Marxists and leftists. Many communists disagree with many the actions undertaken by ruling Communist parties during the 20th century.

Elements of the left opposed to Bolshevik plans before they were put into practice included the revisionist Marxists, such as Eduard Bernstein, who denied the necessity of a revolution. Anarchists (who had differed from Marx and his followers since the split in the First International), many of the Socialist-Revolutionaries, and the Marxist Mensheviks supported the overthrow of the Tsar, but vigorously opposed the seizure of power by Lenin and the Bolsheviks.

Criticisms of Communist rule from the left continued after the creation of the Soviet state. The anarchist Nestor Makhno led an insurrection against the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War and the Socialist-Revolutionary Fanya Kaplan tried to assassinate Lenin. Bertrand Russell visited Russia in 1920, and regarded the Bolsheviks as intelligent, but clueless and planless. In her book about Soviet Russia after the revolution, My Further Disillusionment in Russia, Emma Goldman condemned the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion as a 'massacre.' Eventually, also the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries broke with the Bolsheviks. By anti-revisionists

Anti-revisionists (which includes Marxist Leninists, Hoxhaists and Maoists) criticise the rule of the communist states by claiming that they were state capitalist states ruled by revisionists.[71][72] Though the periods and countries defined as state capitalist or revisionist varies among different ideologies and parties, all of them accept that the Soviet Union was socialist during Stalin's time. Maoists believe that the Peoples Republic of China became state capitalist after Mao's death. Hoxhaists believe that the Peoples Republic of China was always state capitalist and uphold Socialist Albania as the only socialist state after the Soviet Union under Stalin.[73] By left communists

Left communists[74][75] claim that the "communist" or "socialist" states or "people's states" were actually state capitalist and thus cannot be called "socialist". Some of the earliest critics of Leninism were the German-Dutch left communists, including Herman Gorter, Anton Pannekoek and Paul Mattick. Though most left communists see the October Revolution positively, their analysis concludes that by the time of the Kronstadt Revolt, the revolution had degenerated due to various historical factors.[74] Rosa Luxemburg was another communist who disagreed with Lenin's organizational methods that eventually led to the creation of the Soviet Union. By Trotskyists

After the split between Leon Trotsky and Stalin, Trotskyists have argued that Stalin transformed the Soviet Union into a bureaucratic and repressive one-party state, and that all subsequent Communist states ultimately followed a similar path because they copied Stalinism. There are various terms used by Trotskyists to define such states, such as "degenerated workers' state" and "deformed workers' state", "state capitalist" or "bureaucratic collectivist". While Trotskyists are Leninists, there are other Marxists who reject Leninism entirely, arguing, for example, that the Leninist principle of democratic centralism was the source of the Soviet Union's slide away from communism. Maoists view the Soviet Union and most of its satellites as "state capitalist" as a result of destalinization, some also view modern China in this light. By Anarchists This section may need to be wikified to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please help by adding relevant internal links, or by improving the article's layout. (April 2011) Click [show] on right for more details.[show]

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Anarchists have been among the most vocal critics of contemporary and historical Communist party rule. The Irish anarchist organization, Workers Solidarity Movement, states:

In the case of Russia all property/means of production belongs to the Russian State so all surplus value accrues to it. Absence of internal markets in the USSR and other Stalinist countries does not mean that the Capitalist mode of production is not in force. Surplus value is incorporated into goods at the point of production under Capitalism. In the West this surplus value is realised as money profits by selling them. But the surplus labour is incorporated into goods whether or not they are sold. This can be used directly providing use values for the Capitalist such as weapons or extra plant and machinery. This is the way state Capitalism works. Goods are also sold on the international market and the money is shared out among the bureaucracy as bribes, wages and awards. But internally surplus value is realised directly as use values such as plant and weapons which i) keeps the system ticking over and ii) maintains the bureaucracy in its privileged class position.

In any Capitalist system profit is extracted at the point of production by undervaluing labour power. Whether or not this profit is realised as cash money at the market is not of primary importance. A system which feeds most of its surplus value back into itself as means of production is possible in theory. Indeed all Capitalist systems tend towards this with more and more profit going into plant and machinery and less and less labour from which to extract a profit. Western style Capitalism is now in this very degenerate phase with larger and larger corporations and more and more investment in plant, machinery and technology.

The Soviet Union is a nightmare form of Capitalism where weapons systems and heavy machinery proliferate but basic consumer needs cannot be met.

Absence of private property in the Soviet Union is often put forward as evidence that Stalinist countries are not Capitalist but some new "Post-Capitalist " property form. However property forms (who owns what in law) can be a convenient legal fiction concealing the essential relations of production. The so called Asiatic Mode of Production. This was a description of the system pertaining in China and many parts of the Far East up to late feudal times. In theory property was collective but in practice it was held "for the people" by a small Oligarchy and passed from father to son. So all rents and profits (beyond what was needed to keep body and soul together) passed to them. State Capitalism employs a similar rouse to conceal its exploitative nature.[76]

For left wing criticism of communism, above. Socialism include communism:

Friedrich Hayek in The Road to Serfdom, argued that the more even distribution of wealth through the nationalization of the means of production advocated by certain socialists cannot be achieved without a loss of political, economic, and human rights. According to Hayek, to achieve control over means of production and distribution of wealth it is necessary for such socialists to acquire significant powers of coercion. Hayek argued that the road to socialism leads society to totalitarianism, and argued that fascism and Nazism were the inevitable outcome of socialist trends in Italy and Germany during the preceding period.[30]

Hayek was critical of the bias shown by university teachers and intellectuals towards socialist ideals. He argued that socialism is not a working class movement as socialists contend, but rather "the construction of theorists, deriving from certain tendencies of abstract thought with which for a long time only the intellectuals were familiar; and it required long efforts by the intellectuals before the working classes could be persuaded to adopt it as their program."[31]

Winston Churchill argued that socialism inevitably evolves into a totalitarian regime:

A socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.[32]

Several theorists have shown that bad economic theory leads directly to bad practice, and the two cannot be separated. For example, Milton Friedman argued that the absence of voluntary economic activity makes it too easy for repressive political leaders to grant themselves coercive powers. Friedman's view was also shared by Friedrich Hayek and John Maynard Keynes, both of whom believed that capitalism is vital for freedom to survive and thrive.[33][34]

Peter Self criticizes the traditional socialist planned economy and argues against pursuing "extreme equality" because he believes it requires "strong coercion" and does not allow for "reasonable recognition [for] different individual needs, tastes (for work or leisure) and talents." He recommends market socialism instead.[35]

Objectivists criticize socialism as devaluing the individual, and making people incapable of choosing their own values, as decisions are made centrally. They also reject socialism's indifference to property rights.[36]

edited 27th Jul '11 3:17:03 PM by secretist

TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971
ViralLamb Since: Jun, 2010
#182: Jul 28th 2011 at 12:20:40 PM

Ok, so this is how it is if I'm not mistaken:

Communists seek to create a revolution that replaces the "bourgeois" with the "proletariat" in terms of government and power, creating a socialist state that redistributes the wealth. But that is only a temporary stage, necessary for the final stage in which the government "withers" away and we finally have a stateless classless country. A Communist Nation.

Anarchist's seek to achieve this communist "phase" as well, but by skipping the socialist part. They seek to topple the current "system" overnight, and not leave anything to chance. Basically the same result, but they seek to achieve it differently.

I'm not saying Communists and Anarchists are the same btw, but they are similar. I think Anarchism would be the better choice personally, but then again they have a whole "no hierarchy" thing that doesn't just apply to "bourgeois" and "proletariat" like in Communism, but in every aspect of society and I'm not sure what that entails exactly so....

Power corrupts. Knowledge is Power. Study hard. Be evil.
ekuseruekuseru 名無しさん from Australia Since: Oct, 2009
名無しさん
#183: Jul 28th 2011 at 12:34:21 PM

I read the Communist Manifesto a while back and basically what I got from it was a lot of moral posturing without any attempt at justification or rationalisation, some broken arguments about economics that were to some extent based on the aforementioned moral posturing and flew (and still do fly) in the face of other theories that have been shown to be very successful in their application, and an open statement that the poor should do all sorts of nasty things to the rich simply because the poor are poor and the rich are rich and that is somehow unfair. Really, at one point, it seemed like they were revelling in being unpleasant.

edited 28th Jul '11 12:37:07 PM by ekuseruekuseru

ued199 Emperor of Acheron from Philippines Since: Oct, 2009
Emperor of Acheron
#184: Aug 3rd 2011 at 10:17:36 AM

You can't justify killing a person just because he/she rich and you are poor. Thats just plain thuggery. Who ever thought that that idea would work never new anything about the redistribution of wealth.

Not all dreams are meant to come true, otherwise there would be a lot of dead people.
annebeeche watching down on us from by the long tidal river Since: Nov, 2010
watching down on us
#186: Aug 3rd 2011 at 12:31:47 PM

Communism is just poorly applied socialism.

Sure, it can work at a small scale, but at a state scale, no, not at all.

That is, I have been told this and this makes sense to me. I don't know enough the finesses of communism and political philosophy to judge for myself.

Banned entirely for telling FE that he was being rude and not contributing to the discussion. I shall watch down from the goon heavens.
secretist Maria Holic from Ame no Kisaki Since: Feb, 2010
#187: Aug 3rd 2011 at 12:33:10 PM

Common ownership of the means of production (e.g., factories) precludes markets for capital goods (e.g., factory machinery). Absent market prices emerging from exchange within a framework of private property, there is no profit and loss and thus no rational basis for directing the use of capital goods towards the most urgent consumer demands in the least-cost manner. In contrast, private owners of capital employ property and use market signals (prices, including wages and interest) as guides. Freedom of exchange results in prices that reflect consumer preferences and directs the use of capital toward the most urgent uses, while entrepreneurial judgment contends with constant change. Socialism, which requires a total state, is not a viable option to capitalism. Any step toward socialism is a step toward economic irrationality.

TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971
BlackHumor Unreliable Narrator from Zombie City Since: Jan, 2001
#188: Aug 3rd 2011 at 1:43:03 PM

Any step toward socialism is a step toward economic irrationality.

And why is this supposed to be bad?

A rational economy is ruthless, and not particularly fun to live under.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
BlackHumor Unreliable Narrator from Zombie City Since: Jan, 2001
#190: Aug 3rd 2011 at 1:52:14 PM

If you want to put it that way. An economy that is compassionate is strictly incompatible with an economy that acts rationally. Behaving economically rational is essentially the same as behaving like a supervillain.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
secretist Maria Holic from Ame no Kisaki Since: Feb, 2010
#191: Aug 3rd 2011 at 1:55:11 PM

Are you reffering to the coroporations qualify as pyschopaths/sociopath findings by pyschologists. Also, Milton Friedman didn't have a problem with this issue. Who really cares about the alleged concept of social justice?

TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971
whaleofyournightmare Decemberist from contemplation Since: Jul, 2011
Decemberist
#192: Aug 3rd 2011 at 1:56:54 PM

Socialism, which requires a total state

Can you expand on that, I'm sure the Euroland states still have capitalism even though by American standards they are all "Commie Land States."

Dutch Lesbian
BlackHumor Unreliable Narrator from Zombie City Since: Jan, 2001
#193: Aug 3rd 2011 at 2:11:39 PM

@secretist: No, I'm referring to the concept of economic rationality.

It's a useful abstraction, but only an abstraction. It's not a good way to actually behave or even to actually be rational. Unless you think pursuing profit to the exclusion of everything else is rational.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
BlackHumor Unreliable Narrator from Zombie City Since: Jan, 2001
#195: Aug 3rd 2011 at 2:21:12 PM

Good for Ayn Rand, then.

That is, if she had actually ruthlessly pursued profit, which she didn't. She just said it was a good idea without actually doing it herself.

I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
Embracio Longevitae from Suecia Since: Aug, 2011
Longevitae
#196: Aug 3rd 2011 at 5:48:23 PM

Communism as elaborated by classical anarchists I don't see anything wrong with. The vision of Pierre Kropotkin, PJ Proudhon, Kevin Carson, Malatesta and others was basically an agro-industrial federation and a completely freed labor force. It isn't too far fatched (all though hardly accurate) to argue that this is what peasant populations were organized like in classical societies. It's a very _distinct_ alternative that precisely examines the flaws of the modern mega-machine of industrial capitalism.

Marxist Communism, however, looks upon the capitalist production apparatus with envy and wishes to create a totalitarian industrial complex that will grant economic equality for all ("The Dictatorship of the Proletariat", "freedom is slavery" etc). Marx very obviously hated organized, traditional society an sought to destroy it, and since his ideology enslaved and mass-murdered people by the hundreds of millions in half the world, wel...

edited 3rd Aug '11 5:49:05 PM by Embracio

Gray64 Since: Dec, 1969
#197: Aug 3rd 2011 at 11:05:47 PM

Seems to work fine on small scales, such as Amish communities, kibbutzes, and the Chinese collectives. I think it gets unwieldly if you try to make it work over a whole nation, and becomes even more unworkable if the rest of the world decides it doesn't want to be communist.

lilylilium Conspiracy Theorist Since: Apr, 2011
Conspiracy Theorist
#198: Aug 4th 2011 at 12:13:48 AM

It's idealistic. Too idealistic.

Ignore my location.

I've known about it since the beginning. But I just refused to believe it.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#199: Aug 4th 2011 at 12:39:11 AM

Well, Communism seems to rely on people not being greedy. Or not wanting to feed their family during famines. Or be able to have a heated house during winter.

So yeah, in a way it is too idealistic. It assumes that the peasants can't be as corrupt as the monarchy that got toppled (or as corrupt as the revolutionists thought they were) or that they don't get desperate in hard times. NOTICE: everyone in all social classes can get desperate and greedy. A system that doesn't take human nature into account is a very bad system.

secretist Maria Holic from Ame no Kisaki Since: Feb, 2010
#200: Aug 4th 2011 at 7:10:10 AM

Ironic given that Communism is scientific socialism as oppposed to utopian (idealist) socialism. There is also religious socialism in Jewish left, Buddhist socialism, Christian socialism, Socialism and Islam, religious communism, and Christian communism.

Anti-coomunism has some good points:

Objectivists argue that wealth (or any other human value) is the creation of individual minds, that human nature requires motivation by personal incentive, and therefore, that only political and economic freedom are consistent with human prosperity. This is demonstrated, they believe, by the comparative prosperity of free market and socialist economies. Objectivist Ayn Rand writes that communist leaders typically claim to work for the common good, but many or all of them have been corrupt and totalitarian.[7]

edited 4th Aug '11 12:37:03 PM by secretist

TU NE CEDE MALIS CLASS OF 1971

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