Just The Same But More of the exisiting trope Race Lift: Whitewashed History

As I pointed out in YKTTW this is just Race Lift writ large. I don't think this needs to be a trope.

Was launched despite 4 of us making this exact same point in the YKTTW. (See the discussion here)

I suggest it either be cut, or narrowed to focus on the localization aspect.

edited 27th Nov '10 7:41:55 PM by Sackett

I went in expecting something like History Is Written By The Winners, I am disappoint.

Cut.

The person who launched specifically said that she (I assume "she") felt that an entire race being Race Lift-ed "had different connotations" than doing it to a few individuals, and that this warranted a new trope.

Race Lift is about changing a character's race in an adaptation.

Whitewashed History is about casting actors of a different race to portray an entire historical culture.

We really need to make a predefined message about how having extreme amounts of another trope doesn't automatically make something The Same But More. How about The Same But Different?

edited 28th Nov '10 5:14:18 AM by EternalSeptember

It does not currently seem sufficiently different from Race Lift to warrant its own trope. At most, this could be handled by a subparagraph on the Race Lift page.

Anytime someone launches a trope because one person agrees with them and 4 don't, that's certainly grounds for cutlisting. It's blatantly ignoring the consensus. There might be something to the trope regarding a uniform race lift, but half the examples are vague observations and not actual examples.

And the Prince Of Persia has already been discussed many times as Gyllenhaal is half Jewish and many of the supporting characters and extras were of middle-eastern (or at least non-white) descent.

EDIT: I've learned from history I sometimes need to better explain myself on touchy topics, regarding PoP the idea is that it isn't as clear cut a "whitewash" or Race Lift as people want to make it out to be. People of different ethncities were used and it wasn't just "we're making everyone white!"

edited 28th Nov '10 1:55:47 PM by KJMackley

Rewriting a character and rewriting a civilization is not the same thing, having them as separate tropes is not The Same But More. Both are valid tropes in themselves. Also, one trope is about making a character easier to identify with, while the other is about changing history, retconning the world to make a certain ethnic group the de facto history of the world.

(The new trope should have gotten more specific examples before launch - "Movie X" rather then "many movies" - but that's another issue.)

That said, should they remain separate or be merged?

I'm leaning towards a merger myself. The distinction between the tropes is very clear in theory, but can easily get fuzzy in individual cases.

Also, both titles are quite problematic.

"Also, both titles are quite problematic."

Elaborate?

The only work example I see is Prince of Persia—and even then, as mentioned here, it's not a straight example.

The Bible one, as mentioned in the article, changes based on personal preference. It's not exactly "Jesus is white" so much as "Jesus looks like us". Plenty of representations of Bible figures have them as black, Caucasian, or Middle Eastern, depending on who and where the stories are being portrayed.

The Old Westerns one admits it's a bit of a stretch—it also doesn't provide specific examples, as does the caveman movies example.

So if we're unable to find a single straight example from a work, it's not a trope.

Besides that, this trope appears to be a The Same But More of Black Vikings, not Race Lift.

Xzenu, as I read the trope description, it is not about rewriting the civilization- for example rewriting Jews as a tribe of Caucasians.

Rather the description seems to me to be saying that the actors selected to depict the civilization come from the wrong race. So Caucasian actors are depicting Jews- who are still written as Jews.

helterskelter seems to be correct. Looking at it more closely, this is The Same But More of Black Vikings rather than Race Lift. Since Race Lift is actually rewriting the character to be a different race (which would be what Xzenu thinks this trope is about).

Rodney Anonymous: Whitewashing History is a great name for a trope about caucasianizing historical cultures. It works a little bit less well for the afromaericanization of historical cultures - the campaign for retconning ancient Greece and Egypt for the glory of afro-americans - a kind of (white)washing that should be included in the trope. My major concern is regarding merging the trope: The name doesn't work for individual fictional characters.

Race Lift is a bit counterintuitive, and even when one have understood what the trope is about the Facelift pun gives an impression that the race change was done because one race is considered prettier rather then easier to identify with. Then again,merging the tropes could actually help against this problem. Last night I considered the facelift pun to make the name worthless for a merged trope, but then again the name can also be read as lifting a certain race up/forth.

Sackett: The distinction between the first and second part of your post is IMHO way to esoteric to be useful: BOTH of them boils down to "the population of ancient Israel was a kind of Caucasians".

This distinction issue have great potential for becoming a permanent headache. Good argument for a merge: Expand the Race Lift definition, make Whitewhashing History a redirect.

Except this is more Black Viking than Race Lift.

"Whitewash" also means "anything, as deceptive words or actions, used to cover up or gloss over faults, errors, or wrongdoings"... it is sort of a pun... but that is irrelevant, if it is redundant to Black Vikings. Disagree that it should be a redirect, it is unnecessarily narrow compared to Race Lift.

edited 29th Nov '10 2:39:41 AM by rodneyAnonymous

Except that the aspect of it that is Black Viking ismerely The Same But More or maybe even "the same, period" (as far as I can see), and is thus uninteresting.

The similarities with Black Viking speaksonly for a cutlisting.

So, my suggestion remain for now: Expand Race Lift to include large scale (changing an entire population rather then merely an individual character).

edited 29th Nov '10 2:42:13 AM by Xzenu

I would say that Black Viking is quite different. (A subtrope if anything.)

Black Viking deals with making things more PC by adding diversity Affirmitive Action History if ya will but still way out of place, while race lift is just a change of a person and has little to do with history as it can happen between works doesn't have to be out of place at all.

edited 29th Nov '10 4:00:28 AM by Raso

Probably, if the article had straight examples. The only one provided is the Prince Of Persia one, and that would be more like a Black Vikings example. Older movies could be counted as straight examples, but that's more of a reflection of a completely white Hollywood a couple decades ago, rather than a "whitewashing" of history.

The trope shouldn't have been lifted off the ground, as it was unable to find a single straight example.

Heh, just found this thread again.

Take a look at the statistics for this trope. I don't know what it "should" be like after five months, but still.

After five months it should be doing a hell of a lot better than 0 wicks and 1 inbound.

Cutlisted.

edited 25th Apr '11 2:11:45 PM by Madrugada