Iwata, Sakaguchi: JRPGs need to change. Now.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-01-25-sakaguchi-jrpgs-need-to-change

"Excessive use of the same patterns and conventions" means "same story, same gameplay, same characters over and OVER AND OVER."

Jonah Falcon

Okay... so they need to mix things up. Got it.

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

I gotta say, my main problem with JRPGs is that sometimes the writing is a little unclear/unfocused/whatever, and that there's not enough plot for 60+ hours of gameplay.

So maybe JRPG makers should make shorter games, or denser ones.

Whatever they do, the fact of the matter is you can't spend tens of millions of dollars on a game (Final Fantasy XIII) and lose gobs of money because your sales can't keep up with it because people have seen the those characters, that dialog, and so forth 1000 times before. Problems with JRPG characters is that they're not people. They're walking symbols spouting out the same Ice Cream Koans over and over. There's a reason comedia del'arte isn't seen much anymore. Japanese RP Gs have turned into the Japanese equivalent of Full House-style family sitcoms.

Oh, and 40 minute cutscenes don't help, either.

edited 25th Jan '11 7:41:22 AM by JAF1970

Jonah Falcon

Anything else you want to get off your chest?

I find it hard to believe that JRPGs alone have to innovate when the same shooters come out every year with the same crew-cut gravel-voiced buff male protagonist. I think it's simply that JRPGs have to appeal to a larger audience since the game industry, and audience, is exponentially larger than it was when FFVII was released thirteen years ago. It does mean making smarter design choices and cleaning up the writing/translating, but that's not a problem that's exclusive to JRPGs.

Also, commedia del'arte may be largely gone, but there's still an audience for it and its tropes and characters are still widely-loved and inspirational today. It's foolish to dismiss that out of hand.

edited 25th Jan '11 7:56:26 AM by WildKnight

The blind man walking off the cliff is not making a leap of faith.

Yeah, too many Expies of Cecil and Rosa. We need more Chick With The Sword's or Staff Guys.

Help?.. please...

That's so untrue. You're not going to tell me that Master Chief is the same as the protagonist of, say, Modern Warfare or Gears of War? How about Gordon Freeman? Or, let's get real close: is Master Chief the same as Noble Six?

(You're picking the wrong genre, since those games include multiplayer, by the way.)

Are you going to tell me that Miranda is the same character as Bastilla or Silk Fox?

Do you know what commedia del'arte is/was? That's basically what JRP Gs are now. Or, maybe Noh theater.

I can't predict what was going to happen in Halo 3, for example.

And the worst part is that the LOGIC in a lot of JRP Gs make NO FRICKIN' SENSE. You have characters that behave in one way, then suddenly do something else, that is a Character Derailment in the first 30 minutes. They. Have. No. Personality. They have Archetypes instead. At least other RP Gs play with expectations.

And let's not get into Wangst / Angst? What Angst?.

Go watch the film Bullets Over Broadway and examine the difference between Bad Writing and Good Writing as exemplified by David and Cheech. The former has his characters spouting homilies and his own philosophy, while the latter has them acting like real human beings with real dialog.

Jonah Falcon

Jonah your problem is that you think that all JRP Gs fit the exact same mold as Final Fantasy, while its the most famous example, by no means is every, or even most, JRP Gs are like it. What JRPGS have actually played anyway?

Oh and JRP Gs doing the same plot lines and characters and plotlines over and over? Bio Ware does the exact same thing and you seem to like them.

edited 25th Jan '11 8:12:15 AM by Neo_Crimson

Sorry, I can't hear you from my FLYING METAL BOX!

Mass Effect 2 also had some rather dodgy plotholes, as I think one of this site's reviews points out.

somebody was complaining about long cutscenes?

Apocalypse: Dirge Of Swans.

Is Tear the same character as Sheena? To-MAY-to To-MAH-to.

Sorry, I can't hear you from my FLYING METAL BOX!

Just because he wears a futuristic suit of armor doesn't mean he isn't essentially the same stereotypical badass as Soap MacTavish or Marcus. Valve and their games are an exception, and their games are fantastic — would that most western developers would follow their example. And I have no idea what multiplayer has to do with anything.

I was in an amateur commedia play that was extremely well-received. I know a little bit about it to know that its traditions are pretty well-respected in theater and their tropes make for decent bases for plots — you can't tell me romcoms don't have some commedia elements in them. And Bad Writing is, again, something the entire industry is suffering from, FPS to WRPG to JRPG alike. I don't see why JRPGs are getting singled out for this.

The blind man walking off the cliff is not making a leap of faith.

Hey, Fallout 3's original ending.

OH NO, I MUST SACRIFICE MYSELF TO THE RADIATION EVEN THOUGH THERE'S BUDDIES AROUND ME WHO ARE IMMUNE TO IT.

Sure, they fixed it later, but that doesn't mean it never happened.

edited 25th Jan '11 8:31:52 AM by Ralphrius

Stargate SG-1 Let's Watch. Because my ZHP thing failed.

I always lol when I see Bioware criticizing other developers for not evolving. Really, it never fails to amuse me.

Yes, and Laharl is obviously the same character as Cloud.

also inb4 shinfernape

edited 25th Jan '11 8:44:51 AM by Glowsquid

This. Gordon Freeman's speech at the end of Half Life about the importance of integrity in a world too battered to enforce morality made me cry, and his snarky summation of the previous game's events in the sequel had me laughing hysterically.

Also, Jonah, you just fell in a trap of some sort.

You say some stuff that are apparently always true to JRP Gs. You're generalising the genre.

Next, someone follows up on this, except using FP Ses, generalising FP Ses in the process.
That was intentional, because he knows it's probably not true.

However, because you decide to fight this generalization of FP Ses, you just gave green light to JRPG fans to defend the generalization of FP Ses, and then they can make you out for a hypocrite.

Just saying. You may have gotten a bit too emotional about this.

Stargate SG-1 Let's Watch. Because my ZHP thing failed.

Angst, stories about friendship and the power of whatever, Characters Derailments (some of them), hot demons with stripperific outfits, Excesive simbolism,

Thats why I love JRPG, and it must remain like this forever, it makes the difference between the WRPG

Maybe if people were to actually BUY the ones that try to be different.

<nudges at avatar>

edited 25th Jan '11 9:15:05 AM by JotunofBoredom

Umbran Climax◊

Honestly, I'd say half the problem these days is JRPG designers specifically trying to appeal to western audience. . . and doing it *very very badly*. Nier is the archetype of this.

The other half, admittedly, is too much wangst, and too many unlikable characters. The plot can be some intricate dramatic opus, and nobody will like it if they hate all the characters involved. Conversely, a light fluffy tale of exploration adventure and heroism doesn't need a deep intricate plot, if the characters are people you like, and want to spend time adventuring with.

Basically? I don't think JRP Gs need to change; companies like Atlus and Namco/Bandai are doing fine. What *Square-Enix* needs to do is clean their own house. No more billion dollars budgets for games that are two years late; no more randomly redesigning the entire game mechanic without stopping to ask "is this a good idea?"; and no more writing heroes who are absolutely unlikable ( *coughVancoughHopecough* ).

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com

Hey! I liked Hope from Final Fantasy XIII. He was my favorite in a long time. So he's at least not unlikable to everyone.

Help?.. please...

Do you mean "pinnacle", or "a typical example"?

And I like Vaan, but fuck this inane argument.

edited 25th Jan '11 9:34:14 AM by AllanAssiduity

Oh and to reinforce my Hope is a great character argument, don't just call angst wangst just because you don't understand it. His emotional issues and development have been done very well which allows many players such as myself to connect with. So far I liked him better than everyone in XII X and almost the whole cast in IX even.

Also, back on topic, Hope has so far been one of the less done archetypes in JRP Gs actually. So his character is an improvement if anything.

edited 25th Jan '11 9:47:34 AM by PsychoFreaX

Help?.. please...

I don't know much about JRPG's, but I think the problem might be that the fighting systems for these things keep getting more and more complex as everyone trys to find a way to pull off a blend of real-time and turn-based stragety. Oh, and the japanese have a unhealthy obsession with grinding, e.g. Disega.

edited 25th Jan '11 9:50:57 AM by ABRICK

A good writer puts in a lot of details in there story. But a great one gets a story from a single detail.

Let's go back to Final Fantasy I-esque gameplay, because innovation's for other people. Purposeful exaggeration = obsession?