The best part is when Virgilla goes and takes Beato over to Fetherine and Ange. So that means Ange is reading about her reading about her talking to Beato, as she talks to her.
...I think I pulled a brain muscle.
What about Eva?
edited 17th Aug '11 11:28:55 PM by PataHikari
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
As I said, I still think magic is being used on the murders. Just that, at the same time, it is not. Or, I could say, "a Piece in which magic exist happens in parallel to the Piece where magic doesn't".
The meta-fiction must exist for the story to have meaning, however. Even if the 'fantasy Rokkenjima' doesn't.
Magic! (that one got me dizzy at the first time)
PS:I agree with your prediction, Arha. Sadly. No matter if it is 'Mystery Rokkenjima' or 'Fantasy Rokkenjima'. Everyone dying is a constant, as it must result in Ange's world.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:31:20 PM by Heatth
Oh, joy. Eva lived. I'm so thrilled. I can't hope to curb my enthusiasm.
Well, she is the only character to have survived in any game so far.
Battler. His body is never found or is always given a pure fantasy death. I don't think he's dead like the others. The only exception is where 'Eva shoots him' in episode 3. However, I don't believe this really happened.
Which could technically frame the story as a dream he's having in a coma or something like that, but I'll pretend I didn't think of that.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:34:12 PM by Arha
Well, he at the very least died in the 4th game.
Granted, this was when nobody was on the island but him. Yet somebody killed him
Heh. So, at which part you are right now? Have the last 3 been chosen yet?
edited 17th Aug '11 11:35:40 PM by Heatth
Wasn't it stated that 'I will kill you' but that it never actually happened?
And uh the bodies are being discovered at the moment.
Considering it was stated in Red, we can assume it's an absolute truth and Battler was killed in the 4th game.
Oh yeah, Battler also dies in the 3rd game in a non-fantasy way. I mean, Eva shooting him is pretty much not fantasy. 
Yeah, but that's a truth that was decided upon and later mostly dismissed. It's not an objective statement of what happened.
Oh, Battler died this time. Still, I think I will maintain that Battler lived through the original incident. These games don't really count since the detective isn't really allowed to die, after all.
Huh?
I laughed so much when you said Battler's body was never found, considering you were just reaching the part where they find his body.
Anyway, that red was an statement of what would happen, and I believe there is no mistake Battler died during Ep4. Considering he witnessed Eva kill him at Ep3, I believe this is truth as well (it is different from Ep2, where Battler have gave up and were drunk). I believe Ep5 established that, for the first four Episodes, all Battler sees with his own eyes are true.
I do think you are into something, however. At very last, Battler always lives until the end of the tale.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:46:43 PM by Heatth
Yeah, Battler was the Detective in the first 4 episodes (An incompetent one, but still) So pretty much anything that can reliably be seen with his own eyes can be considered at the same level as the Red.
That game was a trick setup to 'prove' that only Eva could have done it to make Battler sympathize with Beatrice and thus accept magic like that to keep her alive. However, it was a trick. Thus, when it was decided that 'Eva killed everyone' it became the 'solution' for the story but this does not mean it actually occurred. For example, Natsuhi being guilty was 'proven' in the fifth episode... but she didn't really do it. Instead, either Battler or Shannon probably did it.
The third episode leads into the fourth, where it's strongly implied that Eva didn't kill everyone. I doubt she even knows what happened.
Granted, it turns out Beatrice didn't want to win there in the first place since she wants it proven that she didn't really do it, but the logic upheld with this still stands.
Anyway, Battle surviving until the end probably is irrelevant. I think he survived the original incident though.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:51:46 PM by Arha
You know, this is actually a pretty clever reasoning. Of course, there are still some problems.
Most of the murders in Episode 3 don't follow the usual M.O. While the first twilight is the usual culprit (a twisted insane closed room puzzle), the later murders were committed by someone else. Most likely Eva. (I even have an idea why George would die) Except for Dr. Nanjo, who was killed by someone despite everyone being dead, incapacitated, or accounted for.
Why do I assume this? Simple, they aren't closed rooms at all. Ignore the flashy magic deaths and you'll see this.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:55:51 PM by PataHikari
Hm? It was never implied Eva killed everybody in Ep3. For one thing, she couldn't have killed Nanjo. And mostly certainly didn't killed Hideyoshi nor George. And hardly killed the first 6 either. That game was a dirty trick from the meta side POV, but that doesn't mean the game was meaningless. There is a logical solution for it. That solution includes Eva killing Battler. (mind you, this isn't really a spoiler, but a theory I had ever since Ep3 itself)
The fourth Episode likely have a logical solution, although I can't quite put my finger on what it happened on it yet.
I can't disagree Battler may have survived the original incident.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:55:32 PM by Heatth
Exactly. I don't believe Eva would kill Hideyoshi or George but it was 'proven' that she was the killer. So Eva killing Battler is not necessarily true.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:58:00 PM by Arha
Well, I have a theory involving these. But I don't want to state much cause it might ruin some things to you. But I will say this.
Who's to say the deaths have to be deliberate murder? What if some were accidents?
edited 17th Aug '11 11:58:55 PM by PataHikari
Shrug. I don't know about that, I only think that the solution given was supposed to be recognized as wrong. The entire episode was a trick, after all. Remember, we never saw Beatrice using the red truths to solve all the incidents. Battler refused to hear it.
edited 18th Aug '11 12:00:49 AM by Arha
Where it was 'proven' she was the killer? I don't remember that. And, unlike Battler, it was never shown Eva killing Hideyoshi nor George (it was EVA, at best). For the first 4 Episodes, Battler is our reliable point of view. He is the only thing aside the red we can really believe at full value. Battler saw Eva pointing the gun to him (although I guess this doesn't mean Eva did, in fact, killed him).
Anyway, here who I believe Eva killed: Rosa, Maria most surely. Maybe Krauss, Natsuhi and Battler (she most certainly pointed a gun to Battler, however). Most likely not Rudolf, Kyrie nor the first 6. Most certainly not George nor Hideyoshi. Certainly not Nanjo.
edited 18th Aug '11 12:03:58 AM by Heatth
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ HELIX
My favourite episode ending has to be episode 6. Episode 7 was amazing as well but that one creeped the **** out of me.
Anyway, look forward to it.
Theory time
I mostly agree on Hideyoshi. Odds are when Rudolf and Kiyre went back to the mansion to interrogate him, a shootout ensued, he died in the crossfire.
Now George, that's an interesting one. Here's what I think happened.
Remember, both Shanon and Kanon are dead. This means that Yasu has free reign on the island as an unknown person. So what did she do? Remember how Beatrice revived Shannon? Yasu did that, she used her "magic" to bring Shannon back to George. Eva noticed this, and having put Yasu on her "murder list" tried to kill her. But she messed up, and killed George instead. Yasu is the one who killed Dr. Nanjo and later later did the same trick to "revive" Kanon and take Jessica to a safe place.
Does anyone have a link to that page of red truths? Battler's closed rooms have me curious and I want to review what has been confirmed.
It's actually the first result for "Red Text" on google.
http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth
Don't go down to low, spoilers lurk there.
edited 18th Aug '11 12:47:24 AM by PataHikari
No! The goat that squared off against Krauss was real! He had hopes and dreams and a lover! Why can't you understand his pain?
And yeah I didn't get the point of the story at first, so I thought magic might have been used in the murders. However, I still think the metafiction exists. Lambdadelta and Bernkastel. Meta Battler may be some kind of metaphor, but alive in some way. I think too much information is present for the story not to be real to some extent.
That said, I imagine the story will end more bittersweet than Higurashi did. Magic might be sort of real, but I think everyone except Battler is probably dead. He has a way of surviving until the end without leaving a corpse. I'm not sure how that will be tempered to make it not an outright downer, though. Guess I"ll see.
edited 17th Aug '11 11:28:15 PM by Arha