When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

Knox's 1st has a requirement of sufficient introduction, which in a VN requires a culprit to not be a "blob". The "blob" without art counts as a mysterious stranger. Onikakushi-hen is a special case since the protagonist (who doesn't get art until Meakashi-hen and is not the detective) is the culprit to that specific arc.

Even if you don't believe Higurashi follows Knox to the letter, it does follow the overall concept of "Fair Play" pretty well and is a Fair Play Mystery.

Knox's 4th is debateable though I say yes due to the parasite rather than an unknown drug being foreshadowed as early as Onikakushi-hen.

Watanagashi-hen has issues with Knox's 8th (though there are other bigger clues to the culprit before hand). Incidentally enough, the anime and especially manga versions handle this issue better than the novel. Makes me wonder if R7 realized this screw up and had a more direct involvement with the manga version of said chapter to address it.

Higurashi certainly follows Knox's 1st (the culprit for the arc mysteries and the common thread were introduced in the 1st act of said arc), 10th, 2nd (the super natural entity is innocent and the supernatural elements function more like decoration thus are not part of the crime), 3rd, 5th, 7th (Keiichi is not the detective in Onikakushi-hen), 6th, and 9th.

edited 11th Jul '15 4:29:51 PM by magnum12

I was just pointing out how Umineko changed my thinking about mystery in general; was talking about Ranpo Kitan in comparison to Umineko, which makes reference to Edogawa.

So Knox > Edogawa, as far as I can tell.

Also, if you're saying the culprit is Keiichi in Onikakuchi, then it doesn't pass Knox at all. We have access to the culprit's thoughts, the culprit is the detective, etc. If we consider the mystery to be Tomitake's death, then the culprit is Takano, as it always is, and we never get her thoughts until after it's already been explicitly revealed that she's the culprit in future arcs.

edited 11th Jul '15 4:23:31 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

The Onikakushi ending (Keichii's crime) is a whydunnit rather than a whodunnit, and that aspect was foreshadowed before hand.

The mystery of that novel is the set of "Cotton Drifting Festival Murders" (also includes Tomitake). Due to Unreliable Narrator, Keichii is not the detective, and I doubt he's ever the detective. The mystery of Watanagashi-hen is the post festival disapperances.

So I was, oh so randomly, looking up Umineko parody type stuff. Found this lovely gem crossing Umineko ... with Muppets.

[1]◊

What am I looking at here?

Edit: In unrelated news, enough time has passed that I can finally listen to Thank You For Being Born without breaking down into tears. Whew!

edited 11th Jul '15 10:54:34 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

Congrats: you have officially lost your heart.

Strangely it's the opposite for me, that track didn't do much to me at first, but now thinking about the scene where it plays at the end of E4… ugh… ;__;

Well, I mean, the VOCAL version is still-

Been thinking about something as of late.

Shion has managed to do something that most yanderes never do (though Shion is techincally only a proper Yandere when L4+), confront her inner darkness and win. The path of atonement and facing that darkness was a big part of her Character Development in the last two arcs.

Point being, its time the fan base collectively let Shion "Live it Down" given her canonical atonement. If Miotsuki-hen is to go by, then Ryukishi says the same. To elaborate: Shion goes through the Heel–Face Revolving Door, starting out as a quite competent face, goes Heel via HS, then reverts back to her normal self. Much like Miotsuki-hen was intended to resolve some of the things R7 wanted to put in the original novels, it is also R7's way of "putting his foot down" regarding Shion. In summary, "Yes, Shion is especially terrifying when HS kicks in. No, that's not her true self. The true self is that of a loyal, well meaning person at heart who has anger issues."

I don't agree with your assumptions. In the arcs post Meakashi nothing triggers her, but that doesn't mean nothing could or that she's more mature as a person. You could argue that she's done nothing wrong there and shouldn't be blamed for what alternate versions of her did, but you can't say she's atoned or has overcome flaws her counterparts did not.

Guys, guys, guys!

It doesn't matter!

Umineko proved that Higurashi is BS!

Anyway, I'm fine with Shion "living it down." I kind of get the sense that the Miracle That Happened Because Everyone Believed (queue wretching Bernkastel) actually sort of shaped the world dynamics of the shard, so that instances of HS wouldn't trigger so heavily in Shion in the first place.

Shonen genre rules n whatnot.

IIRC, in Minagoroshi-hen, Shion was the most horrified by the events of her alternate timeline selves. I think Mion said something about having to coax her into even talking about it (it was either episode 7 or 8 of Kai). One could argue that Shion's extra drive to protect Satako in that arc is derived from both the original promise and a quest for atonement over deeds done in previous timelines.

Personally, I think the final arc implies that her inner demons aren't coming back, though the anger issues due to protectiveness are still around but based on Minagoroshi-hen can be talked through (that's still good progress). Shion got closure in regards to Satoshi, with the implied hope that he will one day recover. Fitting, given R7's statement about a true perfect ending being about everyone getting their happy ending. I forget the exact words, but I know he said something about it.

World Half Full indeed.

Nice little "troll" there. You know what I mean.

edited 15th Jul '15 1:44:24 PM by magnum12

But Higurashi isn't a perfect ending! After all, Nomura didn't get her perfect ending :P

Got some new intel. Turns out Sentai Film Works just got the license for Higurashi, Kai, and Rei. We may or may not get a dub.

However, Sentai is well.....famous for listening to the fans. Let's make the best of it by suggesting a cast to make the dub successful.

Here's my pick:

Keichii: Grant George or John Yong Bosh.

Mion/Shion: Megan Hollistad (she actually did well for herself in Meakashi-hen)

Rena: Mela Lee (actually a talented actress if her other works are to be believed) or Sarah Williams (despite the dub not being so good, Sayaka was considered a gem, especially in Rebellion). That and she's known for voicing somewhat off people.

Rika: Stephanie Sheh. She's the only person I think could give Bernkastel justice in terms of role. Or Cristina Valenzuela. She'd be able to pull Rika well too given she's the voice of Homura.

Satako: Michelle Ruff or Cristina Valenzuela

edited 12th Aug '15 10:03:33 PM by magnum12

Woo. Dubs.

More power to ya'll I guess?

Heck to this day, we know extremely little about Nomura

if I ever write that Umineko no naku koro ni chigau fanfic, you can bet I'd make Nomura somehow involved!

She killed Beatrice Castoglioni to drive Kinzō mad and eventually give birth to the witch Beatrice?

Knowing Nomura, it would likely be that in an alternate reality where Tokyo exists (I'm pretty much 100% convinced it doesn't in the world where the canon umineko takes place), the hidden weapons under Rokkenjima are a Much Bigger Deal, and they'd tie into the events more closely.

So, like, I make a habit of listening to songs with Japanese lyrics despite not knowing a whole lot of Japanese.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here.

Anyhoo, I was just fixated earlier on how the song Yakusoku is a lot less tear inducing than Thank You For Being Born ... if you don't know the words. But the spoken verse "usotsuki. Sayonara. soshite, gomenei" ("Liar", "Goodbye" "And ... I'm sorry") still makes me tear up.

Waaaaaah this series continues to haunt my sooooooooooooul!! Damn you Umineko!

And just to resurrect this thread (Because I'm the Witch of Resurrection Tomu Beatrice?), I got to thinking: what would a Persona 4 x Umineko crossover be like?

Yes, it's totally random. But when you think of it, the two series have somewhat opposing philosophies.

Beatrice proves that witches exist since A. the Scoobies are terrible detectives and B. magic was used after all.

Bad End.

Depends on what kind of crossover you're doing with. Character meets character, setting replacement, thematic, etc.

Could probably get something that feels natural by having, say, the Persona crew (3 or 4 or both, tbh) investigating the ruins of Rokkenjima for whatever reason, then weird shadow stuff happens.

The crew then has to dungeon crawl / fight representations of Yasutrices regrets and mysteries, until they can come to solve it and put her to rest.

Lambdadelta and Bernkastel as Velvet Room attendants.

edited 14th Aug '15 4:25:48 PM by Oroboro

That and lots of people shoot themselves in the head.

No, that's Persona 3 :P

... I kind of want to write this now, but it's not a concept that anyone would find a particularly large audience. Maybe if I worked in ponies somehow.

Umineko and MLP are a perfect crossover.

Just ask the seven stake sisters. Friendship is magic!