Illegal Immigration - racism's new refuge?

I have no sympathy. As a first generation Belgian-American, my family worked hard to go through immigration and worked hard to become American. If some guy wants to come here illegally and work for absolutely atrocious pay for jobs an American can do, then that is his problem and should be removed for being illegal and the employer prosecuted.

its not racism, its just that the left likes throwing down the race card for an issue because its a hard one to get past. If Mexico has problems, then it needs to fix it itself not export it over here.

Well, we also need to embark on massive acculturation programs to allow immigrants to fit into U.S. society smoothly. Right now, lack of English skills is a huge barrier. We can't simply make Spanish a second national language; too much official and economic business is conducted in English. If someone wants to be in upper management in a white collar business in this country, se necesita hablar Inglés.

Amnesty or no, we're left with the same basic problem as with the black community — a cultural divide that blocks them from ever having a full economic share in the country. It's a problem that affirmative action (counter-racism, if you will) can only solve so much; there has to be a drive from within to become part of the larger culture.

Also, amnesty won't solve the problem of more immigrants entering the country. In fact, it's likely to make it worse. We have to establish control over our borders to stop the flood, or at least regulate it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Not amnesty, just remove them.

A lot of the issues is that it takes time to integrate new ethnic/immigrant communities and sometimes they don't want to be integrated.

This is part of the issue that Europe is dealing with right now: a vocal, highly religious Muslim population that insists on keeping their culture intact within the larger society. Moreover, they insist that the society work to accommodate them, rather than the other way around.

Culturally divisive politics, exactly what's led to such peace and harmony around the world.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I agree we can't make Spanish a second national language, in order to do that we would have to have a first national language, which we don't. English is not the national language of the U.S.A it's just the language that most people happen to speak. Although I don't see the problem with becoming a bilingual nation. Freedom of speech allows you to speak whatever language you want.

There's a good chance that my amnesty plan wouldn't work they way I think it would but I still think that finding ways to reduce the incentives for illegals to cross the border is just as important as securing the border. At the very least if they had some bargaining power they wouldn't be such a drain on the system.

Watch what you say...Joe McCarthy is reading your posts.

@Word Casters: I can't recall any specific cases off the top of my head (and I'm about to head off to bed), but the courts have ruled otherwise, in regards to showing ID. Unless there's evidence (recording, witness, etc) that the cop was intentionally being a dick, they can hold you until you can be identified if you refuse to show ID, and you'd be unlikely to find an attorney willing to take a case against that detention.

Also, granting amnesty is likely to make the problem worse, as it did when President Reagan offered a similar program back in 80... 80-something, I forget when exactly, off the top of my head.

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(moving on to other related subjects)

As my family on both sides has been US citizens for at least a century now and all of us are varying shades of "terminally white"  ^*

, laws like those passed by Arizona aren't an issue for me. However, I'd imagine that those, like anelaidlives, who have become citizens the hard way would be rather seriously pissed (or are pissed and it's just not reported) at the notion of what effectively amounts to a light slap on the wrist of those who've broken the law (that "illegal" isn't there merely for decoration, after all) and "go forth and sin no more", given the hassle of the legal US citizenship route.

As for integration, given how many of the rallies protesting passing or enforcement of immigration laws tend to have a healthy representation of Mexico flags, part of me can't help but wonder how many in those gatherings are even interested in becoming Americans  ^*

, instead of Mexicans in America, in the first place.

And dammit, I said I'd be going to bed half an hour ago. Damn you TV Tropes!

All your safe space are belong to Trump

And California is the worst state for this considering San Franscisco's stance on everything.

^^I wouldn't consider having to pay extra taxes for the rest of your stay in America as a "slap on the wrist" but it's a perspective thing so whatever.

That was the same argument they used against all of the immigrants who came through Ellis Island and, in a sense they were right, few of them ever truly assimilated into American culture. Their children however did. I still don't see the problem with having a subculture anyway especially a Mexican one, they have good food and decorate with lots of color.

Watch what you say...Joe McCarthy is reading your posts.

It's a different story for the children of illegal immigrants, though. Fear of retribution from the majority culture often keeps them from obtaining proper schooling and language skills, and similarly from assimilating into society. Further, this is a major reason why immigration is said to need to be controlled — if people flood into the country without any attempts at acculturation, they'll simply move the ghettos they came from to America.

It's not by accident that one of the notable ways to hobble a large power in warfare is to overrun them with hordes of refugees. Force them to deal with a humanitarian crisis that could become a Zerg Rush if treated too harshly. In fact, some have equated the flood of immigrants from Central and South America as a de facto act of war on the part of Mexico, which apparently doesn't give a damn about closing the border on its side.

What's worse is that there are sectors of U.S. business that profit very heavily from immigrant labor, and they tacitly condone illegals if not actively aid them.

@Word: Punitively taxing on the basis of former immigration status is likely to meet heavy Constitutional challenges. It would never stand up. Forcing immigrants to pay backdated fines to get legal status wouldn't work, as most simply can't afford it; and if you make them pay it back over time, you're dealing them a crippling economic blow.

Re: Language. Official U.S. government business is conducted in English. 99.9% of corporate business is conducted in English. It's even a standard in international business. You simply cannot expect an entire subculture to manage at above a subsistence level when they are not required to adopt the lingua franca, whether it's official or not. You want to see failed assimilation... just segregate them by language. That'll dash any hopes of them becoming citizens on equal footing with the rest of us.

edited 27th Apr '10 12:06:32 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I'm not sure I buy this premise that most immigrants, legal or otherwise, are underemployed or poor. To my knowledge, the majority of them have jobs, pay taxes, obey the law, own property, borrow money (and pay back the interest), purchase products, and contribute to the economy in every standard way. In other words, they are mostly not "revenue negative". I beleive that taken as a whole, they make a net positive contribution to our national economic productivity. Thus, removing them would be a mistake. An amnesty program would make a lot of economic sense, especially if it could be made to pay for itself, via fees (i.e., "Pay if you want to stay"). That would get most of them documented at least, and then we could regulate total immigration into our country a lot more effectively.

Any other effective solution is going to cost big bucks. A wall across the southern borders, mass deportation, even what Arizona wants to do will have administrative costs for the police, as well as drawing resources away from other tasks (as the police themselves point out). Not to mention the social costs of legally harrassing a minority community right out of your state.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

It takes generations for even legal immigrants to fully assimilate into society, but nobody is talking about deporting legals. That's just stupid. It's illegal immigration specifically that's one of the highest indicators of poverty and failed acculturation. Sure, many illegals make decent wages and some even pay taxes using faked Social Security numbers. That doesn't make them a net positive as a whole, nor does it retroactively justify them having entered illegally in the first place.

You're arguing that we should simply ignore our own laws out of convenience, never mind the floodgate of potential disaster that it would open up.

edited 27th Apr '10 1:09:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

What's wrong with having pride about where you came from?

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with having pride in your origins. However, for a society to function, its members need to be operating with mostly similar goals. I don't give a crap how you dress (away from work) or what you eat or how many languages you speak. When you insist on being treated specially because of your culture, and/or refuse to adapt to the mores and principles of your adoptive society, you create a division. One which, if left to grow unchecked, results in a schism.

I'll put it another way: Why would you leave Mexico to come to America if you don't want to be an American? (Absent work visas, vacations, and other outings where you eventually intend to return home.)

edited 27th Apr '10 1:19:23 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

^ I don't understand what you mean.

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.

Why would you come to America if you wanted to stay Mexican?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Your question seems arbitrary, like Republicans talking about people "not being real Americans".

edited 27th Apr '10 1:33:28 PM by rmctagg09

Eating a Vanilluxe will give you frostbite.

^^So that you can make money to feed your children?

Watch what you say...Joe McCarthy is reading your posts.

Ah, now Word Casters has hit upon the crux of the problem. Traditionally, "immigration" means "people who want to join the culture and society of their new country". People who just want to work here but not become part of the society get work visas and eventually go home.

What we have now is a different class of people that are more properly entitled "economic refugees". People for whom the risk of illegal entry and inferior treatment are preferable to living in whatever hellhole they came from. They don't give a crap about American culture; they just want to feed their kids.

I think that if we revised our immigration system to treat these classes of people differently, we might have some success.

It's worth noting that, historically, the groups of immigrants with the highest success ratio at integrating into U.S. society are the ones who came here more or less voluntarily, seeking opportunity, not the people compelled to come because of economic hardship or (to our shame) deliberate enslavement.

Here's the thing: nobody (except the most outspoken of bigots) wants Hispanic immigrants to suffer unnecessarily. We fully recognize that the reasons they come here are because things suck so badly at home that it's worth the risk. The problem is that they are overwhelming our country's ability to cope and assimilate them as productive members of society. Immigration restrictions are there for a good and valid reason; it's not just some bureaucrat's arbitrary decision to make life tough for people.

Dumping them all back home will not solve any problems, but we can't allow them to stay here with full rights as citizens because it will cause a catastrophic breakdown in our own society's capability to cope with the divisions.

edited 27th Apr '10 1:44:30 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Wait how is coming "seeking opportunity" different from coming because of "economic hardship"?

Watch what you say...Joe McCarthy is reading your posts.

One is the carrot, the other is the stick.

You seem to be focusing on this question like it's some sort of Madness Mantra. If their sole motivation is economic, and they don't want to assimilate into U.S. society, then how do we make them into productive citizens? You can't effectively run a country with multiple distinct ethnic demographics, each existing in a bubble.

^ Or, what CDRW said.

edited 27th Apr '10 2:02:51 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Sure you can we did it for years, the Irish came because of economic hardship they assimilated quite well. The Chinese came because building railroads was better work than they could get in China. Between 1900 and 1910 over 2 million Italians came to the U.S. to make some money and go home, 60% of them never returned home. There's plenty of more examples and all of them assimilated withing a generation or two. Considering how long it's been going on you could almost say it's essential to our society. I certainly don't think we're any worse for it. How many cities profit from China Town tourism?

Watch what you say...Joe McCarthy is reading your posts.

The difference is that they entered legally, according to established policies at the time. They were not stigmatized from the get-go by their inability to work legally. (Stigmatized for other reasons, yes, but not those.) There was an implied expectation that they would become productive citizens and join with the status quo.

Heck, we still have problems from the fun stuff they brought with them, like The Mafia.

edited 27th Apr '10 2:17:34 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Organized crime has existed long before the Italian mafia.

This is the line I was refuting. I don't see where you mention that legal distinct ethnic demographics are any better than illegal ones. But then again none of this debate is coming out right on my flow. I'm giving up. Bye.

Watch what you say...Joe McCarthy is reading your posts.