Neon Genesis Evangelion

I only read the first five volumes myself but the characters are a little different than in the TV series. For one thing Shinji is a nervous wreck and more of teen with an attitude problem, Asuka is less obnoxious, Gendo has no redeemable qualities, Kaworu gets more screentime, etc.

"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"

I've flipped through volumes at my bookstore. Let's just say that the first chapter with Gendo that I read^* Him and Shinji during the JSSDF assault on the Geofront made me say "How disgusting."

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So I'm watching Rebuild now but it reminded me of something from the first series.

While there are many reasons Shinji has problems with Gendo, one of the more prominent sources of his depression and feelings of inferiority, at least in my view, was his seeing how Gendo treated Rei. Gendo might have used Rei as thoroughly as he used everyone else but he at least seemed warm and affectionate with her. As Shinji just put it "Rei Ayanami, why does dad smile when he sees her and why doesn't he smile for me?" Yui's soul is in Shinji's robot right? I thought Yui was all Gendo cared about. So why does Gendo care about Rei?

And while thinking on Gendo, I'm not sure how his manga self can be worse. I'm not saying it's impossible but people always fixate on how he mistreated Shinji and then point to that scene in EOE that "justifies" his actions somewhat and shows that he did in fact feel bad for all he had put his son through. But what about the way he treated mother and daughter Akagi? That wasn't cold and evil? He showed no remorse for either of them.

edited 21st Jul '14 1:56:49 AM by Nikkolas

Shinji is more sarcastic and prone to anger in the Manga. In one scene he nearly punches Gendo in the face!

He also slightly more badass and less screwed in the head than the original series, but he still a very troubled character.

The idea that Gendo is just Shinji but Shinji at his most extreme is a very interesting idea and one I had never considered. They just seem so different on the surface.

Manga!Gendo tells Shinji during EOE that he never loved him and never felt anything but hatred and envy towards Shinji for the sole fact that Shinji's existence diverted Yui's love and attention away from Gendo.

That is how Manga!Gendo is worse. Anime!Gendo is an insecure asshole with the greatest poker face mankind has ever known. Manga!Gendo is the world's most punchable piece of shit.

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He doesn't. I mean, not really; he may show superficial affection, but Gendo ultimately shows that Rei is as much of a tool as anyone else. He shows a minimal amount of warmth so he can refrain from showing any actual emotions to her. It's more of the Hedgehog's Dilemma, only Gendo does it more intentionally than Shinji or Misato do.

One of the things that struck me more about Gendo was that it was later revealed that if Yui had given birth to a girl, she'd have been named Rei. Between that and other things, Rei's clearly a Replacement Goldfish, standing in for Yui and/or Shinji.

Basically, Anime Gendo is an extremely troubled and selfish adult. Manga Gendo is a barely restrained Psychopathic Man Child.

When you nearly kill mankind you go a bit beyond "selfish"....

And like I said, he had no regret for what he did to the Akagis.

Well I did say he was using her as much as he used everyone else. I think the whole Rei clone project shows no one really cared about her. I just was wondering why he pretended to care with her while he didn't even try to pretend with everyone else.

edited 21st Jul '14 8:41:38 AM by Nikkolas

I said 'extremely', didn't I?

True. My apologies.

Either way, I think I'll buy the first 3 volumes of the NGE manga start of August when i get some money and see how I fancy it.

EDIT:

Also was Ritsuko killing all the Rei clones even that bad of a thing? None of them are truly alive until Lilith's soul or whatever is in them, right? And it's not like becoming the new Rei is a good thing either. It's almost a mercy to die without having any real consciousness.

edited 21st Jul '14 8:50:53 AM by Nikkolas

It was more her motive for doing that act that makes it bad. Not to mention that it is basically her trying to hurt Rei all out of a grudge.

Hm... Well along with me reading the manga I might re-watch the TV series. Someone pages and months back said NGE is one of those series you need to watch more than once and that I was missing out on brushing it off after only once through.

I guess they were right. My memory has a ton of holes in it about the show so I can't even really criticize it.

Also these entries under Misaimed Fandom seem...off:

"Given the Mind Screw of Neon Genesis Evangelion, some misinterpretation was inevitable.

Rei was intended to be a creepy and wrong Deconstruction of the anime fandom's fetish for a perfect, obedient woman. Instead, she became one of the Ur Examples of Moe. She also created an entire character archetype. This may be because she's portrayed as a sympathetic Woobie. In addition, the fandom declared her to be pure straight Fetish Fuel, and later merchandising and marketing began to play up this aspect of her.

Much of the same occurred with Kaworu - he was also supposed to be creepy and somewhat disturbing, but as a Bishōnen who seemed to have chemistry with Shinji, he didn't have a chance against the Yaoi Fangirls. As with Rei, this aspect became Ascended Fanon, with his Rebuild incarnation becoming more sympathetic."

If this is true then the NGE writers are really bad at their job. Who would have ever thought of Kaworu as even vaguely creepy? He's kinda weird yes but he's also the only person who's genuinely nice to Shinji for the simple sake of being nice and not because he has deep psychological issues.

EDIT:

"Rei is a near-emotionless girl, who is very pliable, has little sense of self and self-worth, and apparently doesn't menstruate."

DOESN'T MENSTRUATE.

How do we know this????

edited 21st Jul '14 9:18:36 AM by Nikkolas

To be fair, in the manga Kaworu IS way creepy.

I think she refers to herself once as "a woman who never bleeds", but I am not sure.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!

I remember that, it's just speculation. There's a bit in Rei's monologue in episode 14 in which Rei says this:

This part isn't very explicit about who it refers to, but it might be Rei. It's implied that she doesn't dream, IIRC, and between that and her Angel blood it's possible she doesn't menstruate or have similar needs.

Hmm... Asuka explicitly complains about having the need to menstruate just because she's a woman at one point (right before the infamous elevator scene), so Rei not having the need to menstruate would generate yet another contrast between the two. Still, on the whole it seems very unclear. If it were me I'd edit out that last bit, since it's not confirmed.

Wasn't there a poster in here who said Rei was almost flat character so people could project whatever they wanted onto her? I think someone inferring that she doesn't menstruate from that line says more about the person who wrote that entry than it does about Rei's character. It's one reason I'm usually skeptical or even derisive when it comes to looking for symbolism. I think people just naturally read too much into stuff. They're just examining and talking about themselves in a roundabout way.

edited 21st Jul '14 10:17:24 AM by Nikkolas

Rei. A Flat Character. I think I may have just had a stroke from reading that.

I think you may be referring to kiukiuclk, who holds the opinion that Eva is the ultimate Rorschach ink blot test - people see what they wish to see. I'd disagree with that, but it's his opinion.

Well I didn't mean the trope version of Flat Character hence why I just wrote flat character meaning more she has very little presence, especially when compared to someone like Asuka, so you could write into her whatever you wanted.

I'm not saying that's right - just that I think you could do that if you were so inclined, be it consciously or unconsciously.

But what do I know. As this thread has shown I missed a lot.

You were right about Asuka complaining of menstruating though so I guess it is kind apossible Rei doesn't to be yet another contrast...

I'm honestly surprised there aren't more shouts of the creator being a misogynist. Not that he is but such claims are very common when a man writes women and especially when he writes comatose young girls being masturbated to.

edited 21st Jul '14 10:35:52 AM by Nikkolas

The masturbation scene isn't treated like a good thing, though. It's supposed to be disgusting and awkward and horribly inappropriate, rather than being fetishized or glossed over.

Eva's actually one of the better anime series I've seen when it comes to gender issues - yeah, it's main character is male, but there are multiple well-developed and varied major female characters, with their own plot arcs and character development. Jokes about fanservice in the next-episode teasers aside, it rarely goes in for cheap fanservice, and it's a show that is very, very critical of many ways people treat one another poorly, including when it comes to gender issues. And especially when it comes to Shinji's handling of his relationships.

edited 21st Jul '14 10:52:31 AM by Drakyndra

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All that's true but four of the females in the show are obsessed with sex, even if it's treated as unhealthy. Ritsuko and her mother are such slaves to Gendo that they are driven insane by it. They're o slavishly insane in fact that the part of Ritsuko's mother that is a "woman" helps kill her own daughter thereby proving it's stronger than the part of her that's a "mother."

And while I guess it's fair to say Asuka isn't quite as obsessed with sexuality as the other three, she has her moments. Well, moment, the one with Kaji in thE DC of Episode 22. Maybe others I'm forgetting.

I'd say Rei actually has more presence than Asuka. Asuka may be louder and more energetic, but Rei appears in all episodes save one. Whenever I think of Evangelion, I think of Rei - she's just too representative of the franchise to ever ignore.

Incidentally, because of this reason she makes for a good indicator as to how faithful other works are to the original Eva - the less Rei resembles her canon incarnation, the farther one is from Eva's spirit. This applies equally to spin-offs as well as fan-works.

Thinking about Rei's Misaimed Fandom what exactly was Anno expecting? By giving her a sympathetic and tragic backstory, personality, and character arc, I seriously have to wonder what he saw in her that was creepy? Her lack of self worth / appearance? Her overall purpose?

I'm saying this as a fan of her.

edited 21st Jul '14 11:33:37 AM by LDragon2

]up] I hear Rebuild Rei is a bit more emotional or assertive or something.

Also I'm not sure how something like the Lighter and Softer Shinji Ikari Raising Project version of Rei could be as "true to the spirit of the character" as it's hardly true to the spirit of Evangelion as a whole. It's part of why I'm interested in reading it more fully. My statement just now is just going off what I read on the trope page and seen in some scans. I'll be trying the SIP manga along with the actual manga adaptation starting August.

edited 21st Jul '14 11:23:39 AM by Nikkolas

I think it was probably what you mentioned as well as her Emotionless Girl traits (Makoto Yuuki did it better) and the fact that she is a clone of the main character's mother, who, in turn, has feelings of very possibly romantic nature towards her.

edited 21st Jul '14 11:26:17 AM by SaintDeltora

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!