Berserk

The Brand symbol is only used by the forces of evil in this story. It is absurd to say that the whole church is evil just because we meet some bad examples. There are plenty of decent people in the church, this arc is just showcasing the worst of them.

Are you one of those "fans" of Berserk that is only in it for the blood, guts, and rape, or you are you in it for the story? Because the story has gotten a lot more idealistic. I have little patience for people who cry Ruined Forever just because Berserk isn't as dark as it used to be. That's the whole point. That's the aesop.

Your last question. Go read a fanfic? It is absurd to compare a Japanese series and a British one.

edited 18th Sep '17 3:29:59 PM by DocJamore

Wooow, you're getting a little carried away there. >.>

(If the story does become brighter though, I'm all for it.)

Sure, it's not like the God Hand and the Four gods of Chaos are in any way similar.

https://m.imgur.com/vdMbwOK http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/1/19/Idea_of_Evil.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130821232115 [1]◊ [2]◊ https://m.imgur.com/vdMbwOK https://m.imgur.com/vdMbwOK

Food for thought.

As for good examples of the Church, name three. So far all we saw was Mozgus' crew, crazy rich pyro girl and her background, and the pope who just doormats to Griffith. Church-related people being a force for good usually requires them to be or become unbelievers. The only ones getting things right here are wiccan witches. Even druids used to tie people to a tree by their guts and have them walk around it.

edited 18th Sep '17 3:46:20 PM by TheHandle

A crossover between Berserk & Warhammer on its own or with 40K would be epic.

Guts would make for a great Space Marine or follower of Khorne.

edited 18th Sep '17 3:50:50 PM by slimcoder

There are no space Marines in War Hammer. But Khorne is there.

This conviction arc is pretty anti-religion and anti-church on the whole, but I think the Chapter of the Holy Demon War adds some nuance to the message so that it isn't just "Christianity is false and evil". Schierke tells the priest of Enoch village that the church and magic have things in common, and that balance will be restored if he allows a shrine to the old spirits to be built near the church. The fault is not in belief per se, but rather in the willful ignorance and intolerance which often creep into organized religion.

Doc Jamore, you should avoid judging and assuming things about people you disagree with. People will more readily listen to your disagreeing points if you show respect to them. We're all friends here.

edited 18th Sep '17 4:24:26 PM by TheBigBopper

The anti-organized religion message tends to be pretty common in popular japanese media. I was taking a history class on that a while back and I think it's partly a bigger historical thing - the catholic missionaries in the 16th century who went to Japan were seeing some success, but the higher-ups thought it was a danger to their sovereignty (people would be more loyal to "God" than their leaders) and as the precursor to a full-out colonization effort by western powers (which wasn't an unfounded fear). That, and it's just common for japanese pop media to take western thematic/visual motifs and ideas even if they're just surface trappings.

I'll be more respectful. I just do not like the idea of shoehorning all of Berserk into some Grimdark fantasy where all religion is evil. It has outgrown that. Even during the Tower Arc, the second darkest arc in the story, the message is more "don't expect faith alone to save you."

The Village arc is a different arc from the Tower arc. It is the point where Berserk transitions from Dark Fantasy to Low Fantasy and afterwords never stops getting "Higher". The gore and violence is still there, it is a gory story. Ganishka commits Eclipse-level crimes constantly. But the tone has permanently changed and the pessimism almost totally disappears while the stakes remain as high as ever.

edited 18th Sep '17 4:40:56 PM by DocJamore

Honestly, it seems like many Japanese works of fiction use Christian imagery simply because it looks cool to them. Berserk at least goes a bit more than that at least (heck, Griffith is pretty much Lucifer in all but name at this point), and does make the case that one needs to do more than just blindly follow a religion, but to also actually make sure that your belief leads to you doing good in the world.

edited 18th Sep '17 10:19:20 PM by LDragon2

Conviction was one of my favorite arcs. I'll be honest, dark Berserk is my favorite Berserk. I love when it doesn't hold back and shows just how dark the a fantasy middle age like setting would really be. It doesn't romanticize that style of setting at all and even gets you thinking about the kind of stuff that really did happen back there in real life.

Somehow it doesn't feel as dark as GOT, though.

I'd say that Berserk is slightly darker tbh.

The Eclipse is certainly worse than the RW.

At least Walder Frey doesn't rape Catelyn while Robb watches.

No, but Ser Gregor Clegane tears the queen's children apart in front of her, then rapes her, then kills her. And, you know, house Bolton.

To be honest, that sounds like something that probably happens in Berserk every weekend.

Alright, allow me to move the goalposts a little: darkness (as opposed to GRIMDARK) is less about the over-the-top-ness of atrocities and more about the nonexistence or extreme ambiguity of clear moral high grounds and clear good behaviors.

The world of Berserk is very dramatic, but it has clear good guys and beacons of hope and change. Westeros is more downplayed, but has a much stronger sense of hopelessness, impotence, and existential questioning.

Of course, by my weird standards, Bojack Horseman is darker than either of those two.

edited 19th Sep '17 5:38:44 AM by TheHandle

Draken-Nier shits on all 3 in terms of darkness.

edited 19th Sep '17 8:50:30 AM by Demongodofchaos2

Dragons-Kidney?

Drakengard-Nier.

Honestly, I'd say that the anime Texhnolyze is one of the most depressing and grimdark hopeless ones I've seen.

Course, it lacks the extreme gore of Berserk. Closest thing I can think of that matches Berserk's violence that isn't an exploitation film is this:

The manga Fire Punch is up there too.

edited 20th Sep '17 4:43:55 AM by Demongodofchaos2

I suppose A Song of Ice and Fire may be more cynical than Berserk in its depiction of human morality, if not necessarily the nature of hell. It's kind of like apples and oranges, though.

I've only read as far as the third book, so I don't know whether the narrative every gives the skeptical reader any reason to believe that the afterlife is anything except Cessation of Existence, but if it's like what I've read so far, then hell is something that humans believe in rather than something confirmed to objectively exist. I feel like that makes the story feel more realistic than allegorical, so that the violence and wickedness of people feels more like an indictment of real life. It also makes it disturbingly ambiguous whether there is a God or whether morality is completely subjective.

In Berserk, those who know about the Godhand and the vortex of souls, as well as Apostles, ghosts, and the like, know that there is a Fate Worse than Death. Furthermore, it is objectively confirmed that evil gods control the fate of people. In one way that raises the stakes, so that people have more to lose, but at the same time it introduces some objective truth about the universe. If something that can be objectively labeled evil exists, then its opposite must exist as well.

Berserk shows the frailty of humans and how hard it is to be good, but there are objectively good characters such as Flora and Luca who are uncorrupted by the evil of the world. The masses may be Gullible Lemmings who have little to no control over their own fate and passions, but sometimes they can be saved or taught to save themselves. Lastly, while many people are driven to despair and lose their way permanently, there are also a special few such as Guts and Farnese who have the potential transform as people and put their sinfulness behind them. So it's a Morality Kitchen Sink, where most people are shades of grey and the tone of the world tends toward dark, but at the end of the day you know which way is up. There's a struggle between good and evil, and in that sense you have a real choice, which is more than you can say in a world like Westoros with no objective morality outside of the various cultural beliefs of humans. There may be good people in that world, but they have a whole different set of problems than people in Berserk do.

edited 20th Sep '17 6:21:27 AM by TheBigBopper

That's very well said.

And in Bojack, trying to do good or achieve dreams is futile because

• the person standing in your own way is you: you'll fuck up, fail to think things through, fail to follow through on your own decisions, succumb to your baser instincts, fail to consider the feelings of your loved ones, fear love and affection, and drive away everyone around you.
• the dreams, when attainable, will not satisfy you: you can get everything you want and still be miserable.

So you may know which way is up, but you're powerless to get yourself there. And while being good is valuable unto itself, it won't save you from the misery of living with yourself.

GOT is pretty good about subjective morality, but I'd say it focused on questioning cultural assumptions on morality that are taken for granted, and deconstructing them. But there's seldom any doubt who's being a sadistic, petty, brutal asshole, and who is at least trying to work for the common good.

Aaaand end of the Birth Chapter with volume 21. I might actually like this climax even more than the Eclipse… Or rather, the hopeful ending (I mean, minus the thousands of people eaten >.>) is even better when put in contrast with the very grim conclusion of the Golden Age. Some dialogue (especially from Luka) sounds a little too preachy, but it remains bearable. And Luka is awesome anyway.

…So… if I got this right, Griffith recreated a human body for himself, unwittingly using Casca's stillborn child as a vessel… Which means… Casca is technically Griffith's mother now…?

PS: I coughed a little bit when I noticed that this volume where a big tower collapses on itself was published in early 2001…

Did he use Casca's demon baby unwittingly... or perhaps quite wittingly? The God Hand are supposed to be aware of the great river of causality in a way humans are not. When Griffith raped Casca, did he already know that doing so would be necessary for him to be reborn into the material world?

It's a matter of some conjecture among the fandom. Not quite sure where I sit on it myself.

edited 23rd Sep '17 1:51:00 PM by HighCrate

Yeah, that crossed my mind too, and it wouldn't really surprise me at this point. Not sure why he'd want so badly to come back on Earth though. Maybe to achieve his dream as a "human", I dunno…