The sky-high aircraft and aviation thread

Here's a summary:

I wonder if the pilot won his case?

Forgotten in the debate over the Raptor, the US fighter fleet is aging rapidly. It's not the years it's the mileage or flight hours in this case.

The F-22 bring Stealth to the fight, the problem is that OIF/OEF were wars that had nothing to do with the Air Force. It's not just the F-15, many aircraft under high stress will start killing their crews as they fly apart. An old C-130 lost a wing on a water-bombing mission.

Everything the defense press is saying about the F-22 could have been said about the F-104 and the AV-8. Even books on the 104 mention it's history of crashing. The German AF tried to turn it into a bomber. Yeah, a high performance interceptor loaded with lots of iron bombs....

The UH-60 was called the "Crashhawk" by army pilots and aircrew (after several high profile accidents in the late 80's early 90's) and the SH-60 was called "Trashhawk" by Navy vets of the SH-3 (compared to the SH-3, the SH-60 gave maintenance personnel heartburn). Many A-7 pilots hated moving to the F-18 (lower payload, maintenance nightmare). The Navy never fixed the fuel fraction (percent of fuel by weight) from the prototype YF-17 until the F-18E/F of the late 90's.

That's right, the airshow/flight demo prototype fuel tanks were used in a frontline warplane for almost 20 years. Most designers look at the frontline blueprints and say "Gee, the pilots would probably like to fly, fight and come back to base with time to spare lets make the fuel tanks bigger." Not NAVAIR. Headdesk

The Raptor will get fixed. The V-22 will join the ranks of other aircraft that seem to hate their pilots.

edited 5th Oct '12 12:44:50 AM by TairaMai

^

Add the F-14 to that list as well. There were many crashes early in its career.

I probably know as much about the various foibles of the American fighter and other military aircraft as anyone else does who is not either a pilot or an American, so I was aware of the reputation of the F-104 Widowmaker, and the various scandals in Europe around its adoption into air forces there, and also the AV-8A and the reasons for a lot of the crashes that thing got involved in, specifically putting helicopter pilots into those aircraft without thorough type training simply because the AV-8A was a vertical take-off and landing aircraft and those pilots would therefore not need thorough type training. Oops.

The F-18 having that particular fuel-tank problem was, however, new information. I love that. Learning is fun. Thanks.

So it isn't the fact that I am ignorant of history when it comes to aviation top-brass screwups, it is simply that they are allowed to continue. That's what puzzles me.

You say "The Raptor will get fixed." I simply must ask, "When? And how many other pilots are going to die/get maimed before that happens?"

@Tuefel:

You've pretty much summed up my views on the V-22/F-22 debacle. I've found that on occasion the probable cause of pilot error is used a little too readily to foist all the blame on to the pilot rather than defective work practices or something wrong with the aircraft, even in the civilian world. One joke I've read online goes something along the lines of "If a fissure at the end of a runway and a plane fell into it accidentally, they'd still find a way to blame it on pilot error".

Pilot error is a thing. Even trained, experienced crews with thousands of hours on type can screw up. Controlled flight into terrain happens. But it happens a damned sight less times than air accident reports will ever admit to.

And we all know the reasons why that is, don't we?

Well, I wasn't meaning to imply that pilot error didn't exist (it certainly does, and probably still makes up the majority of accidents). Rather, I was just saying that pilot error is attributed as a probable cause even when it's clear that it was something else entirely.

The problem was that while the Air Force tossed everything they had at the issue, the limits may be the human body. The other issue is keeping sortie rates up while flying and fixing the aircraft.

@Flanker: it's a sad fact of human nature, shoot the messenger, that's why the F-22 pilots had to seek protection under whistle blower laws. The issue wasn't that the Air Force didn't fix the problem, it was that they were forced to fly without a workaround.

Look at the HMMWV up-armor and MRAP issue, the Army had to continue the mission while getting armor in place. Airlines and car builders can afford a recall or grounding (barely in the case of the airlines). The military has no such luxury. *

edited 5th Oct '12 4:46:53 AM by TairaMai

Now wouldn't that be a serious kick in the balls. No human pilot is capable of properly flying the Raptor. Not much worse then having a faulty Life Support system.

That would be a serious blow to the airplanes usability. But I have to question that. We have used high performance aircraft before. A lot of the gear pilots wear now is based off of decades of experience with tests that should have covered any possible strain the Raptor could realistically put on it's pilots. It is more likely someone fucked up the Life Support Systems and it is acting up.

Again something that showed up in testing they could have spent time fixing before we had it kill a pilot. Also the USAF tried to sweep this crap under the rug multiple times. Between the whistle blowers and people paying attention we know better.

Do we know if they still have those charcoal air filters in the Oxygen supply system?

I wonder if we could turn a Raptor into a drone. No pilot so no need for the life support systems and we don't choke out our valuable pilots and have an extremely expensive aircraft slam into the ground.

The MRAP could have been fielded sooner if the powers that be swallowed their damn pride and damned their connections to get it out in the field. Gates had to fast track the vehicle to get it to the field so we could even use it.

Time and time again we have gear we need, gear that is fucked up, or gear we don't need and those in charge keep fucking things up by the numbers and getting people needlessly killed protecting their future assets.

The Startos Jump is nearing

Stratos Jump Balloon

The Suit the guy doing the 23 Mile Sky dive will wear

Flying Disk Aircraft Design Declassified

I am reminded of the "Flying Flapjack" a little bit. Vought XF5U

And now crawl through unusual craft I have read about.

An early attempt at making a VTOL Jet Craft

Also the Gyrodyne craft.

And my current favourite Compound Helicopter design the Sikorksy X2.

edited 5th Oct '12 4:42:05 PM by TuefelHundenIV

In the 80's, the F-16 was famous for making new pilots pass out. NOVA did a special on it, of course they blew the problems out of proportion. G-LOC has been happening for decades, the F-22 just made it worse. "Get there-isits" is a sickness that affects any large organization. The vest, the filter (now changed) were downplayed because of a desire to get the plane online.

Pilots openly talk about the F-35 being the last manned fighter. I predict that this debacle will make it happen sooner. An F-22 drone...maybe. It's clear that the human body has hit a wall, we just found it sooner than we would've liked.

Ah the Rockwell XFV-12, a child of the 60's and 70's. If only they had the tech to make it work.

• One company has lost the race to build a commercial spacecraft.
• The F-35 may have lost avationweek's editors and their support.
• Huh, another An/TPY-2 to Japan.
• The 787 is now flying, Yay!

edited 5th Oct '12 7:49:40 PM by TairaMai

Taira: Fair enough point on the F-16 but this isn't the F-16. By this point we definetly have a clue what these craft can do to the pilots.

Please tell me they have filters that are not giving them black lung despite not working in a coal mine or jobs crushing charcoal.

You may be right between the push for better solo capability of UAV type craft including take off and landing and issues with pilots in the craft I would not be surprised to see a huge push in pilotless combat craft.

ouch. Aviation Weekly's article on the pigeon was not kind in the least. Not surprised though.

edited 5th Oct '12 9:01:41 PM by TuefelHundenIV

There's been quite a few articles on the F-35 in the British aviation press — by all accounts the F-35 Press Office is unresponsive...so they to go to the Airbases to find out what's happening.

edited 5th Oct '12 11:50:23 PM by Greenmantle

The F-22 is getting new filters. I'm surprised that the British government isn't fronting the F-35, considering that they have a lot on the line with the JSF.

Lets hope the new filters don't give the Raptor pilots more "FUN" like the last set did.

In general, the weakest part of any future fighter will be the pilot, unless we find a way to develop Inertial Dampening.

I noticed on one of the links that Taira posted that the Okinawan population were told about the plans of the US to site V-22 Crashpreys there, and the Okinawan population says "No!"

/giggles uncontrollably.

What are the latest designs of medium and heavy-lift helicopter types out there in the west?

• The S-92 from Sikorsky.
• The Speedhawk from Piasecki.
• The cool looking X-2 also from Sikorsky.
• The CH-47 upgrades.
• The really cool UH-72 Lakota.
• Old Ch-53 turned into a "Fire Stallion" firefighter.

Okinawans remember the CH-46 that smacked into an apartment complex. Given that Okinawa is a tiny island, a V-22 would stand a good chance of landing on a house if something bad happened in flight.

edited 6th Oct '12 2:27:49 AM by TairaMai

Oh thanks.

There's more:

• AgustaWestland AW139, AW149 and AW189
• Bell 429
• Bell 525 (Under Development)
• Eurocopter EC175
• Mil Mi-38 (Under Development — and it's Russian)

I think that's most of it...

edited 6th Oct '12 2:40:42 AM by Greenmantle

Any of those suited for the helicopter part of the Crashprey's role by any chance?

The S-92 is usually talked about. It's the speed the V-22 has that keeps it in play. V-22's are being offered to Canada, Norway, the US Navy and as a replacement for Marine One.

Marine One? I can think of a few reasons why that wouldn't be a good idea to carry the most important man on the planet around on trips.

Mind you, the S-92 and the AW101 are back in the re-started US Presidential Helicopter contest*

Both decent aircraft. I'm not sure which I'd have picked if I'd been in charge of organising our SAR aircraft. We got S-92s in the end.

edited 6th Oct '12 3:32:52 AM by InverurieJones