When To Rename A Trope

The idea of this fair policy for changing names is to make sure everyone knows about what's being changed and they understand why.

Well, what about those who don't notice any of the discussion threads for name changing? What happens to them?

I'll tell you what happens to them. The only way they first hear of a trope name being changed is when they check their watchlist and see an edit with the reason being "Trope Name A has been changed to Trope Name B," usually with no clear explanation. The troper has no choice but to adjust and accept this and track down all of the examples to change those, for seemingly no reason.

There is no one way on this site for every single visitor to know when a name changes at that exact moment.

As for the policies on the link provided in the first post here, why do the admins not want to rewrite an entire phrase when redirecting links with a phrase title? Is it laziness?

edited 20th Oct '11 10:56:04 AM by kyun

Trope Repair and Imaging Pickin discussions appear on the Watchlist for any watched articles as well as on the article itself in the header. If you're watching a trope, then you have no excuse for missing a discussion.

If you aren't watching a trope, care about its title, and don't visit TRS, well... sorry. There is no way we can inform every troper of every rename topic without being intrusive.

edited 20th Oct '11 10:58:31 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

We also make sure that discussions last a while. In the past we ran fast changes, namely when something needed to be moved to a ptitle, but that day is past. Rename discussions take days, if not weeks to go through TRS, and there's both a tag and a notice on any trope that's in TRS.

Fight smart, not fair.

I think we need to do some editing on the page Naming A Trope.

Basically, the page for naming new tropes should point people towards a result that doesn't immediately get TRS'ed for a rename, yes? Unfortunately Naming A Trope is confusing and self-contradictory, mainly because (despite the quote at the top) it primarily aims to be clever rather than clear. Basically, it goes "Use a snowclone! Don't use a snowclone! Use a pun title! Don't use a pun title! Name it after your favorite show! Don't name it after a show!"

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Definitely needs to be updated for the existence of the Ptitle Replacement System.

Yeah, unwritten rule number one: follow all the unwritten procedures. - Camacan

As a point of historical interest, I found the thread the sandbox version came from. It appears to also have an early conception of the TRS queue somewhere in it. Definitely wasn't expecting to find that there...

Anyone up for updating the stuff that needs updating due to the Ptitle Replacement System?

edited 21st Nov '11 7:43:53 AM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

Should this be moved back to TRS?

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

There are lists of good arguments for and against a rename. Should there be lists of bad arguments for*

and against*

"I like it" etc.

a rename or is that just flame fuel?

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

I wouldn't mind something like that.

Put me in motion, drink the potion, use the lotion, drain the ocean, cause commotion, fake devotion, entertain a notion, be Nova Scotian

One positive response. Good enough for me! I'm sure you'll be shocked to know I have some suggestions. They probably need to be more diplomatically put than I'm doing.

Bad reasons to change a name:

• "I thought of one I like better"
• "I, personally, don't understand it." That's a good reason to vote up a rename crowner, but not a persuasive argument, especially to people who do.
• "I don't like the Trope Namer."
• "None of the wicks or examples show misuse, but I worry it might confuse someone"
• "It's a pune, or play on words."
• "SPOON!"

Bad reasons to keep a name:

• "I like it."
• "I, personally, understand it perfectly." That's a good reason to vote down a rename crowner, but not a persuasive argument, especially to people who don't.
• "The Trope Namer is my favorite work." Particularly when it's a comic that ran three issues in New South Wales in 1974.
• "We don't have a better name"
• "We've used it for a while." (I notice this was removed from good reasons to keep.)
• "We are not Wikipedia."
• "It's a pune, or play on words."
• "Fo RKS!"

---

I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of any of the ones on the second list.

edited 8th Feb '12 9:50:53 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

The word is pun unless I'm mistaken.

Fight smart, not fair.

It's a Discworld reference.

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

Ah.

Fight smart, not fair.

I think "We don't have a better name" is a good reason not to rename.

edited 9th Feb '12 12:15:41 AM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Only in the sense that, since the bias is supposed to be in favor of keeping the existing names, none of the bad reasons for keeping are as bad as the bad reasons for changing. Any reason for keeping is a stronger argument than a bad reason for changing.

If a name needs to be changed, the people in the thread will come up with a better name.

edited 9th Feb '12 7:27:02 AM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

They might not. 'S happened before.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Yes it has. Generally when a trope is very complex, or requires a lot of build up. We also have people swoop in at the last minute with good names.

Fight smart, not fair.

Be that as it may, if a trope needs to be renamed, the lack of a good alternative won't change that.

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

Good alternatives can be and have been brainstormed eventually for such cases. Brainstorming alternative names can be motivated by having a TRS thread open (and thus displaying the relevant tag for all to see on the trope's article), by Wiki Headlines announcements increasing awareness of the problem's existence (and thus greater chances of more and more people coming in to provide feedback), and/or by the Fast One issuing a ultimatum to force people to actually work their asses instead of ignore the problem and hoping that the pro-rename people will eventually lose interest.

Case in point: Nakama being finally renamed to True Companions.

edited 9th Feb '12 1:02:43 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

A question about the new policy; also, having gotten my inch, I want to take a mile.

The question: is there any way a thread to rename Cute Monster Girl would be allowed*

? If the poster claims it's unclear*

which is generally subjective, thoug not for that particular trope

? If the poster claims it's a character name*

which it manifestly is not, but if it were true would be a valid reason

?

The other thing, actually two things:

1. If a trope meets the totally objective criteria — like, it shares its name with a character and/or a work — do we really need to have a single-prop crowner for it? Do we currently do so?
2. If a trope has a decent number of wicks and little or no misuse, can it really be said to be unclear? Conversely, if there's a lot of misuse, is there any possible merit to the argument that it's not unclear?

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

We're essentially on the verge of an edit war on the guidelines page now. See the discussion.

Well? Is our new official policy really "If you can't prove broken usage don't even bother anymore"?

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Taking something to TRS for a rename is saying "this is causing problems, and nothing short of changing the name of the trope — not even creating a redirect — will solve those problems." The new policy simply requires people to demonstrate that those problems exist rather than simply asserting it.

Some categories are likely to cause problems, but likely =/= inevitable.

Edited accordingly.

edited 12th Feb '12 8:18:16 PM by HersheleOstropoler

The child is father to the man —Oedipus

Yes, we've agreed to this much. The issue is what constitutes "problems". I don't get why our idea of that suddenly has to change in light of a new policy that deals not in what arguments are given, but when they are given.

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to

That's not what the TRS is. It's for merges. It's for drafting clearer definitions and doing clean up. It's for axing real life examples when they're causing problems. It's for figuring out what to do with problem pages in general. Renames are not the only thing it does.

That said, the new rule is just putting the burden of proof on the OP to prove there is something wrong right off the bat. It's to get rid of all the O Ps that are just "I don't like this trope name" or "I think we can do better." We want the OP to contain a clear statement of just what is wrong with the trope, why, and here's the evidence.

What isn't changing. It's just the when. We're just putting the most pressure on the OP rather than spending pages of trying to get other people to do it for you. That's it. Nothing else has changed.

edited 12th Feb '12 8:00:47 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Yeah, pretty much. I'm taking this whole thing as "stop starting rename threads without putting any effort into concrete reasons why we should actually rename". The edits to the guideline page seemed to mess with the "what", hence the kerfuffle.

If we can reach a compromise (again) that preserves the previous idea of the "what" and updates the "when" to conform to the new policy, we're golden. I hope the latest edit I did does the trick.

edited 12th Feb '12 8:04:57 PM by TripleElation

Pretentious quote || In-joke from fandom you've never heard of || Shameless self-promotion || Something weird you'll habituate to