Sid Meier's Civilization Series (Main Titles)

Does that person between Victoria and Barbarossa look like any French ruler?

To be fair, Saladin is pretty iconic (despite being an Kurdish born Egyptian, actually) and the ones with minimal complications. You put Rasullulah Muhammad, (peace be upon him), and most Muslim will cries foul. You put one of Khulafaur Rasyidin as leader, then either hardliner Sunni or Shiite will call foul. You put Umar bin Abdul Aziz... actually, this one might work, but he's pretty obscure. You put Harun Al-Rasyid.... Well, he is more known for stories than his rule, so....

edited 17th Jul '16 5:06:29 AM by RBomber

What makes Saladin a bad choice, though? (Asking here as someone mostly ignorant about him.) Is he not considered properly Arab?

...I'm not really sure, myself, but then, I raised on Salafi teachings (one major Sunni group).

Actually, one of the Khulafaur Rasyidin, Abu Bakr, has been featured as the Arabian leader in Civ III.

Don't stop, just proceed, 'cause this is what you need-proceed, just proceed, 'cause this is what you need!

Saladin as leader of Arabia is kinda like having a Roman emperor as ruler of Britain. He technically ruled Arabia (or part of Arabia◊, to be more precise), but he wasn't actually Sultan of Arabia. His title was Sultan of Egypt and Syria. Hell I've heard that the Arabian capital of in Civ VI is gonna be Cairo, since that's where Saladin ruled from.

This is especially bad since it seems like alternative rulers will be a thing (seeing how there's leader abilities separate from ruler abilities), since Saladin could make a great alternative ruler for Egypt (these games could really use to give post-pharaonic Egypt some more focus).

edited 17th Jul '16 7:15:16 AM by Druplesnubb

Isn't the problem that the Arabia Civ isn't actually based on any specific Arabic civilisation but instead meant to be an all encompassing Civ that represents the entire Arab world?

Because it doesn't sound like it's meant to represent a specific Arab nation state, but I could be wrong.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

I believe that it's supposed to represent the Muslim empire under the Arabian dynasties, before it finally disintegrated due to both internal factors (e.g. the Caliph losing power to increasingly autonomous emirs) and external ones (culminating in the Mongols invading Iraq and sacking the Abbasid capital) — i.e. under the Rashidun Caliphs, then the Umayyads, and finally the Abbasids.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

To be fair, quite a lot of the Civ leaders did not rule over the exact land/countries depicted in the games. Many of the Civs are amalgams of a broadly common culture in various different historical incarnations — which allows, say, Harald Bluetooth to own cities that weren't actually in Denmark's possession during his lifetime, or Kamehameha to rule over a culture that was never really a unified country or empire. Saladin is hardly unique in that regard.

I agree with the alphabetical order, but the pictures are strikingly similar. Especially the white scarf + light area below combo, that's the banner and cross of the Order of the Holy Spirit. As it was a French chivalric order, it's doubtful the leader of any other country would rule it.

If they indeed go with alternative ruler, then Henri could be the "other" French ruler. As for who is on the picture, the closest guess I can make is Catherine de' Medici◊, Queen of France from 1547 to 1559, then ruler in all but name under her second son Charles IX from 1560 to 1574 (François II, the elder, only ruled one year). She remained important, albeit less so, under the rule of her third son Henri III.

If there is one Queen that greatly influenced history in the incredibly misogynistic French monarchy, it would be her. She was a shrewd politician, and more importantly managed to be influential in one of the most chaotic eras of the monarchy - the Religion wars, where Catholics and Protestants were pretty much constantly at war.

As for why it would be her, she was known to always wear black after the death of her husband Henri II (he was the king that got a spear through the skull during a joust - and the reason jousts stopped being popular), except for the white thingie around the neck. It would fit the picture, but I can't find one that exactly matches the Firaxis poster.

From a developper POV, if they want alternative rulers, then her choice would make sense, as there would be a male and a female option for the French civ. The only issue I have is that Catherine and Henri lived during the same century (mostly), so as far as historical diversity goes, it's not amazing.

But they are a good foil to each other. One was the mother of the last three Valois, the other was the first Bourbon king. Catherine was a Catholic and supported (in a Teeth-Clenched Teamwork way) the League and the Guise, while Henri was a Protestant and fought the League, with Henri being one of his worst enemies. Catherine was a stern figure (despite being Italian) who cared a lot about morality and was never known to love anyone but her husband, while Henri fathered a dozen bastards (and would have had many more without a malformation of the genitals that got "fixed" when he was 40). Today, Henri is seen as the good guy who promoted tolerance and religious dialogue, while Catherine is commonly seen as "the one that ordered the St Bartholomew massacre".

edited 18th Jul '16 2:29:49 AM by Julep

The problem with Saladin, though, is that the Ayyubid dynasty never managed to expand to a size that is truly comparable with its predecessor Arabian Islamic caliphates, or to their one and only non-Arabian successor, the Ottoman Empire. This◊ was the Ayyubid Sultanate's greatest extent, right after Saladin's death, and it disintegrated shortly thereafter, with the whole thing lasting a paltry 89 years. Compare that to the Ottoman Empire◊, which lasted several centuries and covered much of the territory that was formerly held by the Umayyads and/or Abbasids in addition to Turkey and the Balkans.

Let's face it, if you want a proper candidate for Arabia's leader, you should pick one of the caliphs from either the Rashidun, the Umayyads, or the Abbasids.

edited 18th Jul '16 4:19:50 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Size doesn't always matter. Augustus or Gaius Julius Caesar have been Rome's leaders despite not being the ones that controlled the largest landmass. Actually, if the predictions are correct, VI will be the first time where the leader that controlled the largest Roman Empire will be in charge (Trajan).

Saladin was a successful military commander, and for all we know a really decent man if you account for the traditions of the time. He took Jerusalem, which was the most symbolic thing you could do at the time except for taking Constantinople. He faced some noble enemies like Richard Lionheart, and some absolute bastards like Renaud de Châtillon. And he was a tolerant man, for all we know.

Yes, but Gaius Julius Caesar and Augustus have the distinction of laying the essential foundations for the Roman Empire and actually being the first Roman Emperor, respectively. In other words, they're effectively the co-founders of the Roman Empire. Augustus also drastically enlarged the Roman Empire, to a point where it covered the majority of what eventually becomes its greatest extent (compare: Roman expansion under Augustus◊, and Roman Empire's greatest extent◊; about the only difference is in Mesopotamia and northern Arabia).

And besides, my main point was that the Ayyubids don't really count as a major civilization, since they collapsed quickly after their first leader died and didn't really leave much lasting influence as a "civilization" (if we can even call them that). Even the Mongols lasted much longer after their founding leader died (the Mongol Empire broke up into separate feuding khanates, most of which lasted for many centuries), and the Greeks predated Alexander the Great as a civilization and remained quite influential after his death and the dissolution of his empire.

edited 18th Jul '16 5:40:10 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

There's a lot of details that don't match up, like the big patch of red to the upper right of the white band, and the white area at the bottom isn't really identifiable as any kind of cross, in particular it's much more horisontal than the cross in Henry's portrait. In fact, I'd go so far as saying it looks more like a hand, with a barely distinguishable arm going up from it and the other hand visible to the far right. The white band also looks different, there's a clear "break" in it to the lower left on the head that doesn't match up with the band on Henry's picture, where the closest thing to a break is the "knot" much higher up on the shoulder.

Meanwhile I'm here sitting and wondering if that Jadwiga is going to be Poland's ruler, if Poland is in the game proper.

@Regarding Saladin: Well, in Civ V Alexander's ruling Greece. From what I understand he never ruled Greece proper - Greek city-states were mostly allies/vassals to Macedonia before him. Like, I think I understand what you mean, but Saladin does have the "iconic" thing to him. >.>

How do lizards fly?

... I already mentioned why I give Alexander a pass for being a Civ Leader in my previous post, to which I add another important fact: Saladin and his dynasty were not Arabs, but Kurds. Asking Saladin to be the Leader for the Arabian Civ is like asking Suleiman the Magnificent to be the same, just because the Ottomans happened to have ruled over both Arabia and other Arabic-speaking regions (and they have a much better case, since they ruled over those regions for a lot longer than the Ayyubids!).

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

So if we go for the alphabetical order, what can be betwen Isabella's Spain and Gilgamesh's bridge Sumerians?

If we go by modern countries, then there is only Sudan and Sri Lanka. Neither sound like an obvious choice for the main game. If we count ancient civs, I found the Sukhotai Kingdom and the Srivijaya - the latter as a stand-in for Indonesia? Or the former for Siam?

But the picture really looks European in style. I can't really imagine him/her being Ram Khamhaeng (who was a king of Sukhotai).

If we have two Macedonians ruling over Greece and Egypt, and an Italian ruling over France, the implications of having a Kurd ruling over Arabia are, I think, much less unfortunate: the devs went with fame/originality.

BTW, they found a pic that fits Cathy◊ with the blurred version, so if this leak proves to be true, she is all but confirmed as the French leader.

edited 18th Jul '16 9:09:08 AM by Julep

China introductory video (on a Chinese video site, but the narration is in English)

UA is larger Eureka boosts; UU is short range gunpowder unit (that takes no resources); Leader ability is builders get extra uses and can rush Ancient/Classical wonders; and they get a Unique Improvement called Great Wall, which gives a defensive bonus and later extra culture. But you actually have to build it one tile at a time with builders.

edited 19th Jul '16 4:25:39 AM by Clarste

I feel like pointing out that, going by alphabetical order, since he's positioned between America and the Aztecs, Saladin could conceivably be leading the Ayyubid sultanate rather than Arabia.

Of course, that leaves the million-dollar question: Who is that guy between Spain and the Sumerians?

Regarding the leaked leaders, here's another pic◊.

As previously said, France is highly likely to be under Catherine de Medici although... could she represent her native Florence as well?

The civs/leaders between Scythia and Sumeria are actually still questionable. The Isabella in the portrait is Isabella of Portugal not this one. Then there's the guess that the one after her is Philipp II of Spain. If both are indeed leaders of Spain, perhaps multiple leaders per civ is true?

Then there's the one between Germany and Greece and the other between Kongo and Poland. The former perhaps may be Central Asian (perhaps a leader of the Goldern Horde?). The latter is likely to be the Ottomans

This is a good point in favor of Saladin. I actually like the choice of him as a leader... just it is questionable for him to represent Arabia

edited 19th Jul '16 8:00:16 AM by MarquisDev

"If music be the food of love, PLAY ON" - William Shakespeare

As mentioned though, there's 22 pictures but only 18 civs, so maybe they were still considering which one to pick? It would be pretty cool though if Philip and Isabella were both leading Spain together. You could also do something similar with Justinian and Theodora.

To be fair, most of Arabian cultures basically shaped by Islam, and Saladin stated motivation is basically more religious rather than worldly.

Can't find anything between Sp- and Su-. In French we have "Suisse" but in English it would be Sw-.

I doubt it, as her husband's wars in Italy were largely a disaster and France ended up having next to no influence in the peninsula anymore, which contrasts with the François I era.

edited 19th Jul '16 8:33:35 AM by Julep

Still not fond of Qin Shi Huang. Yes, he was the founder but the guy's reign was basically a disaster and his dynasty collapsed very soon after he died. I'd have gone with Tang Taizong or, if they wanted a more recent leader, Sun Yat-sen, the founder of modern China.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

Didn't Sun's government also collapse almost immediately after he died?