A Song Of Ice And Fire

In-Universe, we know exactly why Cersei fears being replaced by younger prettier queen. Though, Septimus' point was not questioning why Cersei thinks it but why fans think it's credible.

I think Maegor set aside multiple queens.

Let's see ... Rhaena he ordered executed for treason but she outlived him, Ceryse Hightower died of illness/accident during an attempted tongue removal, Elinor Costayne outlived Maegor too, Alys Harroway was executed/murdered after an intrigue by Tyanna of the Tower, Jeyne Westerling died in childbirth, and Tyanna of the Tower was murdered/executed as well.

...yeah, don't think that any of these constitute "putting aside a wife", quite aside from the fact that it's Maegor and nobody wants to emulate Maegor. Well, unless Robert learns that Cersei has an affair with Jaime and "his" children aren't his, in which case children and Lannisters are due for the headsman, but I don't think that's what Cersei meant.

Random thing I just realised from reading the Greyjoy page but Ramsey and Theon at least are still around and know full well they didn't actually kill Bran and Rickon but don't seem to be doing anything about it that I recall.

Maybe that piece of information is how Theon will get out of his execution. Or Stannis will die before he can kill him. Either is possible. Or he can just die I guess, but I don't think he will.

Edited by king15 on Apr 9th 2024 at 7:30:36 PM

To be fair, is there anything they can do? Theon and Ramsay have no idea where they went, and unlike in the show there is nobody who can bring Rickon to them.

And Theon at least still seems to think he deserves punishment since he did kill two other boys to fake those deaths. It's one of the many sins that haunt him. It's even worse since it's hinted that one of the boys might have been his son, meaning he's a kinslayer.

Theon doesn't seem to want anything but to at least be able to die as Theon instead of Reek.

Edited by M84 on Apr 9th 2024 at 10:51:10 PM

And there is no reason for anyone to trust Theon if he denies that he killed Bran and Rickon. Stannis might very well take Theon's head off for Theon's other crimes too.

The only people who can save Theon now are Bran and Bloodraven, via the ravens and tree. And even then, I don't think that Theon has much more time, given his health and that his POV is now redundant to Asha's.

Theon at least doesn't seem to care about what happens to himself anymore. Everything he's suffered and done has more or less burned out his selfishness. All he wants is to die as himself instead of Reek and to help others like Jeyne Poole.

Though I wonder if Stannis would be willing to accept Theon's tenure as Ramsey's plaything as "time served".

Don't think that Stannis is privy with Theon's treatment by Ramsay, at least not yet - he has to prep for battle at the time of Theon I TWOW, after all, there's no time for chitchat and everyone wants Theon dead sooner rather than later.

The thread has been a bit quiet recently, so to liven things up, I propose a game.

*game show host voice*

The ASoIaF FMK game!

If you were a decently powerful figure in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire and you were given the chance to pick three characters from different factions (noble houses, orders, cities etc.), who would you

• fight side by side with in battle (or, if battles are not really your thing, otherwise ally yourself closely with in your preferred type of politicking)?
• marry into your family (either marry yourself - for one reason or another - or marry to your heir, your other child, your sibling etc.)?
• keep around as a ho... - an honored guest and keep a close eye on?

If you want to keep it somewhat realistic, pick three characters who live in roughly the same time period. But if you want to mix and match legendary figures and contemporary political players, you do you.

Bonus: If you don't get an animal out of at least one your above picks (e.g. a Cool Horse for marrying a Dothraki), you can pick a Loyal Animal Companion as part of your original position as a decently powerful figure in Westeros/Essos.

(At the time of posting, I haven't prepared my own answer to this.)

Huh - pretty sure that I've seen this game on Tumblr?

Anyhow:

1. Robert Baratheon, probably, or Brienne. I am not sure I can handle Gregor Clegane even if I were a Lannister.
2. The Starks, hands down. They engender the most family loyalty. Someone of the Vale would come second.
3. There are soo many plotters in ASOIAF that I find it hard to pick which one to specifically keep an eye on.

1. The Hound, tough but (somewhat) loyal and (somewhat) moral.

2. It's tough because most of the characters are... young. If we are allowed adult versions, probably Maergary, to get her family onside. Otherwise, maybe Brienne, fairly powerful family, loyal and honourable and more intelligent then she lets on.

3. Varys. Would be pretty useful as a gage of how liked you are by the smallfolk (and, comparatively, less dangerous than Baelish).

Edited by king15 on Apr 28th 2024 at 4:31:24 PM

1- In battle? Jon Snow, Ser Baristan or Brienne. 

Politicking? Tyrion of course.

...........

2-The Starks.

...........

3-Also Tyrion, even if he is on my side, I will still need to keep an eye on him. 

Daenerys Targaryen is also an option, though she will be dangerous either way.

But if the intention is to keep a powerful family in line, then I guess Margaery and Myrcella make more sense.

Edited by jawal on Apr 28th 2024 at 6:51:49 PM

Mm, don't think that Jon Snow is one of the pre-eminent fighters in the series...

...but then, Martin (probably unintentionally) wrote Robb and Jon with waaaay more physical strength than teenage boys have.

To be fair to that latter example, it could be Ghost moving along with him/Jon using his psychic connection. That first one is a little harder to justify (maybe it was a baby elk?).

Spoiler for the show: Her brothers are doing this, and yet people complain about Arya hitting noclip to sneak attack the Night King in the show.

Edited by king15 on Apr 28th 2024 at 8:48:34 AM

Huh. I didn't know that it was a thing there. But I guess it's not the most original idea to put that spin on the old "fuck - marry - kill" formula.

Yes, if you have the criteria "named character who is not currently married or sworn to abstain from marriage" and "not a minor by modern standards" you get...

*sound of the wheels in my head turning*

I mean, there are still people.

Characters who have been married before (Tyrion, Tywin). Characters who exist in the story to be the adult partner in an arranged marriage to a young teen (Khal Drogo, or Cerise Hightower during Aegon I's reign). Characters who are still young, but at least not that young (Brienne, Theon, Asha). Men who don't get that much social pressure to marry compared to women of their social standing (Edmure). Women who are shamed for being old maids even if they are still very young by modern standards (some of the Frey side characters). Mysterious backstory characters we don't know that much about (Ashara Dayne). Or you can get around the "named characters" thing by marrying a hypothetical age-appropriate person from that group over there (say, merchants).

But the Westeros/Essos marriage market has a lot of people who I would consider children. That narrows it down somewhat.

Thinking about this, any list of schemers to keep track of should include Mace Tyrell.

It seems to me that contrary to a common impression, politicians in ASOIAF actually have values and care about legality far more commonly than we think. The club of "I can do whatever I like, for my personal advancement" nobles is far smaller than we think - but the thing is, House Tyrell is just as much its member as the Lannisters are.

(Remind me, did Lysa Arryn do anything about the mountain clans in ACOK and ASOS?)

Nothing in particular.

The mountain clans IIRC are mentioned twice, in ACOF Pyter tell Tyrion that they are causing Lysa trouble, and Tyrion offers to do something about it, if Lysa will join the Lannister cause, as well as marry Myrcella to little Robert Arryn.

But that was a phony offer, and it goes nowhere.

..................

The second istance the clanes are mentioned is when Lysa met Sansa in ASOS, and complain that because Cathelin took the Black Fish with her, those clans became more daring and aggressive.

But she is confident that Pyter will solve this problem soon.

In general, the clans are but a nusence to Lysa since they can't conquer the Nest.

Hmm. Someone in AGOT complains that the mountain clans have been more active since Jon Arryn died and that Lysa is impeding efforts to stop them. With the above in mind, it seems like she is blaming Brynden for her own decisions. Never mind being economical with the truth when claiming that she kept the Vale out of the war of five kings.

Personal opinion time: I think that ADWD would be better with an Essosi sellsword as POV rather than Jon Connington. I don't think he adds much unique perspective, while an Essosi POV would; moreover, I don't find that "if only I had committed war crimes, my love would be alive!" particularly endearing and Martin has written so many gay sellswords in ADWD/TWOW that you can just add another one, as the POV.

I always felt the Jon Connington and "Aegon" (using scare quotes since I'm not convinced he's the real deal) story arc was kind of weak. Granted, part of that is because it's introduced fairly late in the story.

I still think it's going to be a fakeout that brings the Blackfyre stuff into the main story as opposed to historical background.

It's interesting that the GOT tv series adapted this plot out entirely, with "Aegon" not existing and Jon Connington's character arc being added to Jon Mormont's.

Edited by M84 on May 1st 2024 at 10:56:58 PM

Notice that all the POV characters we got for the five books, are people from Westross, or whose stories are about Westross.

Even Areo Hotah or Melisandre, who were born overseas are now living in Westross.

A POV who is both a foreigner and lives overseas will be a first.

....................

For reference, inside the folder is the list of all the POV for the five books.

Edited by jawal on May 2nd 2024 at 1:56:30 PM