Sexism In Anime

Ahaha, oh wow. I remember reading that chapter on One Manga and ignoring it because the whole spiel made so little sense that I thought it was just the scanlator stumbling over words, but if that's an official translation... I thought Akito was saying that Miho was smart because she knew how to play the Cute Clumsy Girl in order to be popular, but guess not.

edited 21st Jun '10 9:39:02 AM by LORd

Please be gentle with me.

When I have to discuss if and if so in what ways a specific work is sexist I always end up feeling like I'm trying to punch the sky. Two diametrically opposed actions or presentations of a character can both be accused of sexism and then the have the assertion backed up by solid-enough chains of reasoning. Then try applying the question across an entire sub set of a medium and it becomes crushingly hard.

Not that I'm saying sexism in media does not exist or should not be examined but there are few things that wear away at one's enthusiasm like being confronted with the inescapable nature of our prejudices.

They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams for an instant, then it's night once more

Welcome to institutional prejudice. It sucks, don't it?

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^^ You are a prophet my friend.

I've nae read Bakuman, but from those few pages, it seemed pretty clear the guy was talking about social intellect, rather than the more didactic intellect, even if he didn't know the term for it. Since social intellect is literally about your ability to fit in and conform to the society you find yourself in, I can find nothing to argue about in his statements. Whether that society is right or wrong is a separate matter that goes wholly unaddressed.

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.

Well, let's put it this way: Japanese society is sexist, and he's glorifying those wo go along with that. I really felt like juming through the sceen and strangling the man. Brr. How dreadfull. "THE BEST A WOMAN CAN ASPIRE TO IS GETTING MARRIED AND BEING CUTE" Evil! Evil! EEEEVIL!

My mum grew up with that advice and look where it took her!

edited 21st Jun '10 12:27:27 PM by RawPower

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

Um, where did it take her?

With an abusive asshole of a husband on whom her livelihood and reputation depesnd entirely, that's where!

'''YOU SEE THIS DOG I'M PETTING? THAT WAS COURAGE WOLF.Cute, isn't he?

That is most definitely a crappy place to have advice lead you. I can see why that sort of thing in fiction would be a beserk button for you.

That's you adding a values judgment to his words based on your views of Japanese culture. He's saying one girl is better at fitting into her society than the other. That's all.

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.

I see a lot of Values Dissonance in what Westerners call "sexist" in anime.

Just saying.

Heaven doesn't want me, and Hell's afraid I'll take over.

I think it was pretty clear there were value judgments implicit in his speech. Whether or not we can take those judgments to be likewise held by the author depends on the rest of the manga.

He remarks that she's behaving "naturally" and "instinctively" as a girl which pretty heavily indicates he's essentializing the sex. He says that "she KNOWS girls SHOULD", describes her as more appealing because of her actions. "She knows what it MEANS to be a girl," "she knows by instinct that the BEST thing for a girl," and finally dismisses the girl with the highest grades as unappealing NOT because she of any personality flaws but simply because she doesn't put in effort to scale back her grades in order not to APPEAR intelligent (in the more traditional sense).

It goes beyond merely fitting in. He views it as more appealing that she does fit in, and he views what society requires to fit in as the female ideal which the best girls will instinctively conform to.

edited 21st Jun '10 3:01:10 PM by Monadology

"Different" doesn't preclude "sexist", and it is true that many Japanese values are, in fact, sexist.

Another problem with discussing sexism is that people assume (sometimes due to experience with less-than-sane activists) that something being sexist means you need to go into RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION MODE and are not allowed to enjoy it. This is not true, something can be sexist (within certain bounds) and still be perfectly enjoyable, as long as you recognize that it exists, so as to not internalize it.

^ Just as Lovecraft's stories can be very entertaining despite his astonishing racism.

What's precedent ever done for us?

@shiro okami,

I agree that out of the shows I have seen Fullmetal Alchemist is pretty non-sexist, though I cannot vouch for series I have not watched or read. I think that probably is fueled by the fact that its author is female and its target audience is male.

Also, I basically agree with Killer Rabbit. Talking about sexism is not generally easy.

I still think there are notable issues with sexism in manga/anime though anime is really the only one of the two with which I have a reasonable amount of experience. I think it generally makes sense to throw out the series that are based on Fanservice when discussing something like this, if only because I think those shows tend to be based on pandering anyway. Anyway, I think part of the reason why one might find more sexism against women in a generally targeted anime would because there are some aspects of male Fanservice that I think overlap with "coolness" or "manliness".

I would put shirtless fight scenes in that category and a few other aspects of characterization. While I suppose that effect is also present in some form for female Fanservice, I think it is far less common. Keep in mind that I generally try to avoid Fanservice in the series I watch so I definitely am not an expert on this.

One show that I would say portrays men and women very well would be Cardcaptor Sakura. Sakura may have some arguably sueish qualities, but I think the main male characters tend to be presented fairly equally. Syaoran's characterization is something I would especially point to in this instance, though Your Mileage May Vary.

edited 21st Jun '10 3:17:59 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

insert generic rant here about how Hentai is demening to the woman or Uke

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Re: OP female characters outside the Straw Hats: Uh, Alvida? Bellemere? Tashigi? Vivi? Literally half of Baroque Works? Dr. Kureha? Kalifa?

...Wait, double-checking the post, most of those aren't pirates. Okay. Alvida, Porche, Cindry, Lola, Perona, probably more I haven't seen in or before the Thriller Bark arc...I don't suppose the female Baroque Works members count as pirates, even if they work for one.

edited 21st Jun '10 4:25:37 PM by ShayGuy

Try tacking the words, "in this society" after every instance of 'girl' in the quoted statements, and see how it reads then.

From my perspective, it seemed that the deficient trait possessed by the second girl was that she was arrogant about having the best grades.

edited 21st Jun '10 4:16:37 PM by Daremo

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.

^^The relevant part is portrayal, not the mere presence.

Mind you, there are still a few that get by (Tashigi in particular comes to mind), but it's kind of a given that there'd be a few exceptions to any rule with a cast as large as OP's.

This thread is going to be a blessing and a curse at the same time. *fun*

@Sir Psycho: Dissonance might be what we are seeing as sexism, but does that make it ok for them to do it?

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Yeah, and I can tack the words "in my humble opinion" or "in this society" or whatever qualifier you please after every mention of African-Americans in a KKK member's speech (EDIT: Not that this would sanitize the speech even if such qualifiers were present. The famous nail/hammer Japanese proverb should make us cautious of thinking that, just because identity is presented as socially determined as opposed to inherently determined, the views expressed in Bakuman are any less problematic or lacking normative weight). This is such a bafflingly weak justification I'm really not sure how to respond. Why should I tack those words on to it? Is there any indication that they are a silent accompaniment to the dialogue other than your desire to give it such a charitable reading?

Except that Miho is praised PRECISELY because she avoids giving the appearance of book smarts, NOT because she is any more humble than the other girl. That combined with the lack of specific mention of arrogance makes it pretty clear to me that while the girl might also have the deficient trait of arrogance, that's not the problem at hand so to speak. It is simply that she gets good grades and therefore does not conform to the appealing feminine ideal.

Indeed, her arrogance as a deficient trait has pretty much nothing to do with her gender. A male with excellent grades who flaunts them would probably be viewed as problematic for basically the same reasons. It is only the female, however, who is criticized simply for having good grades.

edited 21st Jun '10 5:08:40 PM by Monadology

The writer of Bakuman flaunts his knowledge, and that's portrayed as a rather good thing. As opposed to the girl.

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"Another problem with discussing sexism is that people assume (sometimes due to experience with less-than-sane activists) that something being sexist means you need to go into RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION MODE and are not allowed to enjoy it. This is not true, something can be sexist (within certain bounds) and still be perfectly enjoyable, as long as you recognize that it exists, so as to not internalize it. "

Me, personally, I'm not discussing sexism with this kind of attitude. I despise the sexism in Bakuman, for example, and I'm not afraid to be vocal about it, but I enjoy the story immensely and I look forward to every new chapter. So don't go around assuming that saying "Bakuman is sexist" = "Bakuman is a horrible manga".

-sigh- Why can't people talk about sexism without being lectured about their motives?!

edited 21st Jun '10 4:57:44 PM by Anarchy

No, I wasn't referring to you, I meant that people sometimes get defensive of what they like and try to dismiss criticism regarding sexism because they feel that it means they're not allowed to enjoy the series.

Though, now that you mention it, the opposite mindset can be true as well, hopefully not here.

edited 21st Jun '10 5:28:14 PM by Noimporta

If he was speaking to social intellect, knowingly or unknowingly, it wouldn't be a leap to view his statements as being from a sociological standpoint, would it? That's the way it seemed to me.

I wanted to pick a bit more background so I started reading from there, and ended up reading a lot. I'll probably start from the beginning next time and read the whole thing, though I'll be busy for a while. But I note Shugi(was that it? still not super clear on all the names) applied a similar standard to himself, noting that a mangaka from Tokyo University would probably be looked down on.

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.