Sexism In Anime

Minstrel Shows served a variety of purposes in Antebellum America, including providing a pro-slavery narrative to the Northern states (who, naturally, had zero contact with actual slavery). Minstrel shows typically depicted African-Americans as slow-witted and animalistic, with some further splitting that depiction into "jovial" and "savage" forms.

"Jovial" depictions of Blacks were usually crafted to present them as perfectly happy in slavery, and content with their lot in life. "Savage" depictions were usually an inverse; Blacks were also savage and needed the restraint and control of slavery for the protection of both themselves and greater society.

Minstrel shows were so popular at one point that they may have actually stalled the Abolition movement for decades. Furthermore, most of the stereotypes formed during that period are ones that African-Americans still have a hard time breaking out of in modern society and media.

In either case, though, many people who made these shows either thought they were doing Black people a favor (some shows had explicit "Be good to your slaves and they'll be happy and placid" aesops) and some had no political motivation whatsoever and were just co-opting the style of the time. But again, why are either of those intentions the end-all-be-all interpretations of the work?

edited 26th Jan '15 11:43:03 AM by KingZeal

Being unfamiliar with both, I can't really judge. I suppose it would depend on what kind of background she (I presume it's a she?) has, as well as any past experiences. That said, if face melting is happening, I think that might justify a freak out or two. Or vomiting.

I've heard from people who've read the VN that the UBW anime cuts out a looot of the sexist stuff.

I'd guess most of the Stay in the Kitchen aspects don't appear in UBW per se. But on Fate.

Wait, what is UBW again?

Fate Stay Night

Ah, thought so.

Yeah, Shirou's egregious sexism was on Fate. In UBW and Heaven's Feel routes, he's cool.

I think UBW was the best IIRC. But Fate was the worst. Heaven's feel was in between.

Honestly, none of the routes were really all that bad by general anime standards though.

Oh, those are there, and they don't deserve a pass. I'm just saying...the average is worse.

edited 26th Jan '15 10:17:24 PM by kiukiuclk

Whaa at

I haven't read FSN, and don't plan to do so (awful prose + awful translation = jesus h christ) but from what I've heard Shirou still has some dumb "even though she's a GIRLLLL" inner monologues, which the anime doesn't have.

edited 26th Jan '15 6:16:03 PM by majoraoftime

UBW was the route where Shirou rapes Rin though. Now, the anime won't touch that scene with a 40 foot pole, but that did happen.

In general Shirou actually does have a lot of more subtle sexist notions, on both men and women, floating around in his head. They're just more pronounced in Fate because reasons.

edit: there you go.

edited 26th Jan '15 6:13:19 PM by Jetyl

Raaaape? What are you even talking about?

You lot need some schoolin' about purity and its importance in Japanese culture. The concept is practically sacred to the Japanese, to the point that a lot of the cultural duality you see in Japan is centered around the concept, purity is thus foundational to Shinto, but also to a lot of other stuff that you see, including notions of "honne and tatamae" that i'm positive were discussed in this thread before, as well as "uchi and soto."

Because two-facedness and repression is built into Japanese society, you get a shitton of fantasies that look to glorify abuse in a way that can turn the stomachs of most western porn connoisseurs, but the concept of the loss of purity is compelling to them, which is why a lot of ecchi/hentai stories are not merely rape, but mindbreak fantasies, where the concept "rape her until she turns into a total slut" is in play. Nobody in Japan harbors delusions that women are free from sexual desire, but the overwhelming consensus is that women should repress their sexuality in public, and that men should too, so there's a male component to these fantasies of being able to cut loose and make your internal desires manifest. So too with the women in these works, except in an often disempowering way (though there are plenty of femdom stories out there if that's how you get your kick), they release their inner lusts through being acted upon by the man's inner lust, but the actions of both are taboo.

So the sexist theme is the reinforcement of Men Act, Women Are (or women are acted upon, anyway), but the basis behind these works is a sort of equal-opportunity sexism based more in cultural repression, that we are sexual creatures but civilized people keep these instincts in check, hence the appeal of fantasy, of going wild or being made to go wild.

Not sure any of that is new to this thread.

Rape? Since when is shirou a rapist? Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Hold It.

I know, it does feel like a retread, but pages went by of discussing purity without bringing it back to the cultural subject matter.

Why do people seem to want to put things like that in every single visual novel? I have a hard time getting into visual novels because of things like that.

I love anime. But this is one of the worst and violent and horrible things in life. It's so painful and horrifying to even think about. I would try to avoid ever thinking about it again if I didn't think I need to, in order to stand against rape culture. It's something the whole world should be innocent of. I wish I could live in a world where I didn't have a think about rape ever again, because it wasn't a problem.

I guess I wouldn't choose to forget that rape exists right now, because it's still a problem and a burden I must bare. Because ignoring problems won't make them go away. But it's painful.

And it's horrifying to see the way people portray rape in anime. I watch things like anime to try to escape how horrible things like this are. And many visual novels seem to almost apologize rape or portray it as some kind of sexy or okay thing. It feels like they're trying to justify something that is one of the most cruel things you could ever do to someone. It's a horrifying thing to behold.

I don't ever want to see rape or the fetishization of purity in an anime again.

edited 26th Jan '15 8:48:39 PM by RobotPrincess

oh yeah. in the one sex scene in UBW (Thankfully the only one), initially starts out consensual (or consensual enough given that its Fate Stay Night and all sex scenes much have a plot critical reason for existing), but not too long into it, Rin wants to back out as she is in pain, but Shirou doesn't listen and keeps going trough the remaining 80% of the scene despite her pain. what's worse is that his thoughts at the time are also incredibly rapey, and using the I'm a Man; I Can't Help It excuse.

in general, all the sex scenes in FSN are terrible. the first sex scene in Fate starts with Rin molesting Saber, then masturbating in the background to Saber and Shirou having sex, and in Heaven's Feel there's a scene where Shirou gets raped while he's sleeping and it never gets addressed after it happens. Fate Stay Night is terrible when it comes to sex.

EDIT: its the industry/the culture there. Fate Stay Night has little to do with that stuff, but it has those scene in there because 'that's what visual novel do'. I've heard that the writer didn't even want those scenes in there, but was mandated to add them. then again, I've heard a lot of things involving the writer and those horrible scenes, so take that with a grain of salt.

edited 26th Jan '15 8:54:58 PM by Jetyl

...

It really is, all things considered.

Kind of explains why Healthy Young Man Shirou, and every girl around him besides, is so terrified and repressive of his own impulses.

The problem with a lot of that is that it's not about any public or private persona, or about sexual desires, but about actually being pure. It's not unusual to find girls in anime who're open about their desires, but there's still this persistent need to make them be physically pure. If there is a character who in all appearances seems pure, fooling everyone, but turns out she's secretly actually had sex, there's a ton of hate on her. It's not about honne-tatemae or uchi-soto relationships. It's not about cutting lose inner desires. Those desires have to be shackled down until someone else can unlock them. It's objectification of the highest grade. I find less of that in actual porn than in more mainstream anime.

edited 26th Jan '15 9:04:31 PM by AnotherDuck

Every single visual novel? That's an assertation that feels too simplistic. I would agree with the idea that there is too much of the popular visual novels that are dating sim and or eroge. But rape I'd not say it was that particularily common. The male=dom female=sub thing feels way more prevalent, but that's japanese sociosexual mores at work there.

Jetyl: The UBW sex scene:...I think you are missinterpreting (Can't blame you there, it is poorly-written) the sexual hangups of the story with nonconsent there, admittedly sexist and normative.

Onto the arguments about rape and the fetishizing of purity: There we head into muddy water, saying that a medium should not portray a terrible thing because it is filled with hacks that can't contextualize it properly seems too knee-jerk to me.

Fuck, let's dive back to that scene to see it again, wait I played back in 2011...Damn I am old.

Ogodei, I'm having a really hard time reading what you're trying to say. It's disturbing and painful. And it's making me sick to my stomach and wanting to cry.

But I'm not for cultural imperialism, but I think that's something that should go away from Japanese culture, forever. And every culture that has attitudes toward women and purity like that.

I don't think you can blame religion for something so horrible. I'm not religious, but Shintoism and Animist religions are really pretty and interesting to me, so I've read a lot about them. Animist and Shamanist and Pagan religions are my favourites. They're really fun to read about, and they're in all my favourite Fantasy fiction.

But what I've read about Shinto is that Shito priests are now allowed to have relations with others, and long as they're committed to their job as a Shaman or Priestess. Which is different from Catholicism, where priests are still expected to remain "pure". So it sounds like things are changing in Shinto culture for the better.

And this purity thing is truly disgusting and horrifying. I love anime and many aspect of Japanese culture. But I will never be okay with this. It needs to stop. No one should view purity or women this way.

That's very curious, seeing as you seem so obsessed with purity yourself, and with imposing your tastes upon everyone else, to the point where sometimes I find myself doubting your sincerity and/or your sense of empathy.

edited 26th Jan '15 9:21:48 PM by TheHandle

I like being feminine in a cute way. And I've probably internalized bad gender roles and stereotypes like Women Are Delicate or something bad like that. I want to be able to have a sexuality, and express my sexuality. But when I didn't decide I was a girl, I was scared of virgin shaming when people identified me as a boy. And now that I am trying to pass as a girl, I'm afraid of slut shaming.

Things like purity being fetishized in cultures like Japan make me even more afraid.

And more so than caring about my own purity and internalizing too many bad gender stereotypes about what it means to be a cute girl. I'm seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. It's not so much the purity as it's just painful for me. And I don't want to be in pain.

I'm a very sensitive person with low self esteem because my sexuality and gender identity and how people have treated me because of it. I'm going to a therapist for my gender dysphoria. And he's told me that I have very very low self esteem because my family didn't accept me and abused me because of my gender identity and expression and sexuality. And that other children at school growing up bullied me, too.

So I'm a very sensitive person and a very empathetic person. Seeing others in pain hurts me. I'm very sensitive to my own pain and emotional triggers, and the pain of others. I'm very sincere.

edited 26th Jan '15 9:32:49 PM by RobotPrincess

@ Vandro: eh, probably. they were bad, and I eventually resorted to skimming them. but I do recall Rin asking him to stop, Shirou not listening, and Shioru's constant inner narration talking about his 'bestial impulses' or some such nonsense. most importantly for me was the "she said stop and he didn't listen" part. that's sounds pretty rape-y to me.

again, Fate Stay Night has a lot of little sexist notions common to Japan. the worst part for me is that Shriou, and by extension the narrative itself, seems to consider those impulses of his as something all men have, and therefore ok, which is wrong on at least two levels.

I can definitely see where you're coming from. there are a lot of things about Japan that worry me, mostly because it sounds like someone took all of my internal social anxieties, stretch them across a whole culture, and have that culture glorify them as positive virtues. It makes me very worried for them. But the thing is, it's not my culture. and while that doesn't inhibit my right to comment and criticize their culture, its not mine, there for I have no right to make changes to it. the best I can do it comment, and give my two cents.

Remember Anime is made primarily for Japan, any other market it strictly secondary for them.

edited 26th Jan '15 9:53:55 PM by Jetyl