Harry Potter And The Methods Of Rationality

Wow, that was just amazing.

That was the best chapter in years.

I'm impressed that he really did fulfill all three wishes with one plot. I'm guessing that Ravenclaw and Slytherin will end up evenly matched, dragging out the game to the point where the professors step in and negotiate a compromise involving both houses sharing the House Cup.

Also, Harry's dark side being Voldemort was pretty obvious, but I would have never guessed that he's actually Tom Riddle. Anyway, all the cards are on the table now, but Harry seems completely screwed, setting up an interesting finale arc. I wonder how he's going to get out of this one.

edited 15th Feb '15 8:32:31 PM by storyyeller

Well, in the words of the Joker, "Here. We. Go." Final arc ahead! I think at this point the "fulfilling all three wishes" thing will slide into a side issue, though I did like the sheer simplicity and elegance of the plot. I was worried when Harry thought of calling Cedric for help, given how Cedric died in canon.

Harry's moment of revelation felt a little bit overblown, but it had to happen sooner or later I suppose. The pacing was intense, at any rate.

Is Snape truly down for the count? He was only clipped by a curse by Sprout and never mentioned again afterwards, though he did drop his wand - and Quirrelmort wouldn't have missed that, I suppose. Edit: Nevermind, I missed the next line where he got KO'd.

edited 15th Feb '15 11:09:50 PM by ashnazg

This chapter also does suggest that QM is faking at lease some of his illness.

Come to think of it, what did the students do during the "waiting for exam results" week? Harry states he was surprised by it, but are we supposed to know that already?

Remember how two years ago I said I'd brag if my predictions turned out right? Seems like it's finally time. Things don't look too good right now, but it seems not all is lost. Harry might still have tipped off Cedric, and if Voldemort's illness was completely faked and he could still use the full extend of his powers, then there would be no reason for him to set up this elaborate plan to take out Snape via Sprout. He could've just knocked him out himself and hid the body before Harry showed up. That he's pointing a handgun at Harry instead of a wand also speaks for this.

Although come to think of it that theory doesn't mesh with him warning Snape about Sprout. And does anyone remember whether Harry has the same wards as Hermione placed on him, that go off when he's affected by hostile magic? That might also explain the handgun.

I also wanted to add my voice to those calling this one of the best chapters in years. I kinda suspected it would be this good, since I often thought I could almost feel how much Eliezer was looking forward to writing The Reveal.

So! Who wants to help make a list of all the mysterious questions, big and small, that the story hasn't answered yet. It sounds like a good part of The Summation is coming up, so this seems like a good time to start:

1)Why exactely is Harry some incarnation of Tom Riddle? Was it an accident? If so, how did it happen? Did Dumbledore set it up? Did Tom do it on purpose? If so, to what end and why are Harry's memories missing?

2) Did the first prophecy refer to Harry himself and got fulfilled eleven years ago, or to Harrycrux? What does Voldemort think it refers to?

3)What precisely does the philosophers stone do?

4) What does the second prophecy refer to when it talks about star destruction? (Star lifting?)

5) Does Voldemort have a theory on what the second prophecy refers to?

6) What does Dumbledore think the second prophecy refers to, and why didn't he tell Harry about it?

7) Why did Voldemort make a play for the stone now, instead of way earlier?

8) How much of Voldemort's illness is faked?

9)How do Horcruxes work precisely?

10)Is it impossible to lie in parsel tongue?

11)Did Harry talk to Cedcric before he left? If so what did he tell him?

12)Why are the obvious protections for getting to the mirror so weak?

13)Why did Quirrel warn Snape about Sprout? Snape is probably the better duelist by far, so that seems like a big risk.

14)What does Voldemort want Harry for, both long and short term?

Come on! Help add to the list!

edited 16th Feb '15 2:42:52 AM by lendary

Oh shit! THE WORLD!

Dohohohohohoho...

Oh, my sides...

Just call it a focal point.

That's a hilariously plain way of saying "shows you your heart's desire".

[nostalgia intensifies]

I say, it's extremely painful to watch Harry work through the whole thing in an instant like this.

And then HOLY SHIT, WHAT?!

And then... time flows again.

edited 16th Feb '15 2:50:24 AM by TheHandle

For #1, Harry is a horcrux (or original spell replacing Canon horcrux) of Lord Voldemort. Lord Voldemort is Tom Riddle. More specifically, Tom is the name Voldemort had as a student at Hogwarts.

This version of Voldemort is smarter than Canon, and deduced Harry's mind as holding a horcrux of himself, making Harry a clone of himself, with no continuity of self. Thus, Harry is the person who Lord Voldemort was long ago, a student of Hogwarts.

That doesn't entirely make sense. If we go with Quirrelmort's description, the Horcrux is a copy of the caster at the moment of casting, which in this case would be adult Voldemort, not student Tom Riddle. If he was lying and the canon mechanism is true, then Harry's fragment of Voldemort's soul still wouldn't be young Tom Riddle either. Unless both are false and the Horcrux is a "clean-slate" copy or something.

Though I must admit I don't have any other suggestions for why he addressed Harry as "Tom Riddle". I guess we'll find out next chapter.

I think the point that has always bugged me about the "Quirrel is still Voldemort after all" idea is that if that's the case, his plans for Harry seem far too elaborate, and he seems simultaneously too competent and too sloppy at executing them (in that his faking of emotional closeness to Harry seems to be too perfect, yet if he's that good at it there seems no reason to go with the choice of a Totally Not Suspicious fellow as his persona). It might be possible he slipped up and ended up feeling some genuine emotion towards Harry (possibly explaining his comment about getting too caught up in a role), but that feels out of character both in this incarnation and canon Voldemort. I suppose excessive affection for oneself is a typical trait of narcissists and/or psychopaths, though...

And it is difficult to see what sort of plan could entail manipulating Harry for an entire year...previously the only thought that came to mind was that he's playing for the really long term - by helping to strengthen and develop Harry, he keeps one of his Horcruxes safer (he might not be able to bodysnatch Harry directly because of the whole can't-get-near-each-other thing). Though with this chapter, it seems possible that he wanted to slowly manipulate Harry into eventually taking the Philosopher's Stone for him. If the Mirror's hiding mechanism works as it does in canon, Voldemort himself probably wouldn't be able to retrieve it.

edited 16th Feb '15 8:14:03 AM by ashnazg

I didn't say that. Harry's dark side is from Voldemort. Voldemort was called Tom Riddle as a student at Hogwarts. Harry is a student at Hogwarts. Therefore, Voldemort sees Harry as himself, when he was a student at Hogwarts, which makes Adult!Riddle Voldemort and Child!Harry Tom. Voldemort No longer uses that name, but feels it is appropriate for his inheritor.

Hmmm, that might be possible.

Small easter egg I just realised this chapter: the Gryffindor Seeker was incapacitated by a fall off a "possibly malfunctioning broomstick". Given what happened in Harry's canon Quidditch match, one can't help but wonder if Quirrel was involved in this one too.

Also I note the text mentions that Harry is maintaining two transfigurations, his ring jewel and "the other one". Chekhov's Gun much?

edited 16th Feb '15 9:14:30 AM by ashnazg

Someone on reddit pointed out that Harry put everything together immediately after Snape put him through the full battery of "Dispel mental influence" spells. Which would be both a plausible reason for why he didn't catch on sooner and how exactly Quirrelmort ever expected plan a to fly at all. Plan B is much more robust, because simpler - it's "I've got a gun and a bunch of your unconscious friends"

Though with this chapter, it seems possible that he wanted to slowly manipulate Harry into eventually taking the Philosopher's Stone for him. If the Mirror's hiding mechanism works as it does in canon, Voldemort himself probably wouldn't be able to retrieve it.

If that was it, he'd just use Theodore Nott. There has to be something more to this.

Small easter egg I just realised this chapter: the Gryffindor Seeker was incapacitated by a fall off a "possibly malfunctioning broomstick". Given what happened in Harry's canon Quidditch match, one can't help but wonder if Quirrel was involved in this one too.

I think it's obvious that Quirrel was involved, given that the whole thing was explicitly his plot. But it is an amusing parallel to canon.

@crazysamaritan That is my theory as well. But it's a list of the things we don't know for sure, so stuff goes on it even if there's a plausible theory that explains it.

I doubt it. Most mental interference spells would've shown up when Dumbledore scanned Harry, and it doesn't fit from a meta perspective. One common thread throughout the entire story is that all of Harry's mistakes are avoidable. Whenever he makes one he or somebody else points out how he could've done better if only he'd been more rational.

I agree that Voldemort's manipulation in the last couple of chapters seems unusually amateurish. He lays on the cliche way too thick. He does have a blind spot when it comes to understanding the thought process behind love though (I suspect because he doesn't want to acknowledge that people are truly capable of it).

edited 16th Feb '15 10:37:43 AM by lendary

He seems to be, in these chapters, putting forth an extreme effort to manipulate Harry into something, trying so hard that it snapped Harry's (and the readers') suspension of disbelief. The "retrieve the Stone from the Mirror" idea is the only one that comes to mind, especially after this chapter, but I agree that it doesn't seem complete.

On the topic of transfigurations, I just realised that it seems a bit curious Dumbledore still has Harry carrying around his father's rock, and Harry hasn't questioned him about it. At this point Dumbledore's long past the "pretending to be insane" thing, in front of Harry at least. Does the rock have some hidden purpose? Ideas of the Resurrection Stone being transfigured into it or embedded within it seem to be hampered by the fact it seems to be further transfigurable...though I suppose there's no rule saying major magical artifacts can't be transfigured.

Well, as someone else pointed out, "nullo Confundo" might not strictly speaking be a dispel. Given the naming conventions, it's entirely possible that what it actually does is remove confusion by putting your mind in better order.

.. In which case, people really should be spamming that all over the place a bit more, but.. you know.. hogwarts.

A whole week of Quidditch playoffs.

Nudist camp?

All right! So this is getting started again. Hopefully we can look forward to another update in the near future. Waiting around this time is going to be excrutiating.

So- the plot. We did discuss this to death already. Harry being a copy of Quirril/Voldemort/Riddle/Munroe is no surprise at all to anyone who was around a year or so ago. If you're curious, you can read most of the relevant speculation starting around page 237/238 or so.

Obviously, we have entered the end game of Q/V/R/M's plan. Recall that the whole point of all this is that the Prophesy made Harry (the original one) unbeatable. So they replaced baby Harry with a horcrux, but not entirely (that's why he acquired their personality but not their memories), so that the prophesy would continue to apply to him, but now they (the other copies of Q/V/R/M that are still around) can lose to another version of themselves, thereby "winning". So.

If I'm right, then Q is just running his final scam. He has no intention of defeating Harry here, he has simply set himself up to be beaten by Harry so that Harry can become the hero who unites all Britain (Magical and Muggle) under his rule. Although how Yudkowsky is going to extend that for an entire plot arc I'm not sure.

There are still some questions that are unanswered. Why are Harry and Quirril's magic incompatible (I assume that's why Q is using a pistol- I'm assuming now that he faked the whole illness thing)? The timeline still doesn't completely make sense to me (Did Munroe replace Voldy when he disappeared the first time? The second time? Or did some version of Q/V/R/M replace Munroe)? But those are background details.

Q just called Harry "Riddle" because, from Q's point of view, that's literally who Harry is. He's a horcruxed copy of Riddle, with Harry Potter's body and identity.

It's possible that the "mother's love" spell from canon still applies here (causing Voldemort to be unable to touch Harry), though it does seem to not quite fit the tone of the series. And yes, the gun is certainly a workaround for that.

In terms of remaining plot...well, many things are still up in the air. Even if Quirrelmort is defeated here there's the issue of the second prophecy, which is totally divorced from canon and so has no hints from that direction. (Though I've seen an amusing suggestion that since magic doesn't seem to obey conservation of energy, perhaps Harry is just going to get a little overenthusiastic in trying to create an over-unity machine.)

I don't that the spell that protect Harry in canon is in effect given she try to kill Voldemort and Harry is Tom Riddle due to the horcrux spell.

We'll be getting 15 chapters in 30 days, so an average of one chapter every two days.

EDIT: Was Soren Kierkegaard the Anti-Yudkowski?

Passionate leaps of faith are what gets you whacked in HPMOR, aren't they?

Frankly, this hyper-brief summary makes it sound like Kierkegaard expended a great deal of intelligence and ingenuity into justifying maintaining a a certain worldview and associated habits in spite of knowing there was no solid ground to base them on.

Actually leaps of faith show up a lot in The Matrix.

edited 16th Feb '15 1:32:07 PM by TheHandle

Kierkegaard would make for a fascinating discussion, but is this really the thread for it? OTC would get you more responses and a better discussion.

Meanwhile, upon further reflection I have decided that it's actually more likely that Quirril is somehow faking his recovery rather than his illness. If his plan is to build up Harry as a popular hero, then he will want to make himself appear to be as powerful an antagonist as possible, so that when Harry beats him it will seem all the more impressive.

Anyone has any idea what the other two spells of Snape were? Three out of five are mentioned (anti-Confundus, anti-Polyjuice and anti-Metamorphmagus), what're the other two? I'm guessing one is anti-Legilimency and the last could be anti-Imperius, except canonically Imperius doesn't have a counterspell and can only be defeated by the victim's willpower.

Also, if Quirellmort really did make the Pioneer probe a Horcrux, that would mean the mechanism behind them that he told Harry in chapter 102 is incorrect (there would be no point sending a Horcrux to outer space in that case). Assuming Horcruxes work as in Canon, how did Quirellmort devise an alternative explanation that would obviously make more sense to Harry's worldview?