During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lizzid people!
On an unrelated note, the argument with A Million Is a Statistic reminds me of this clip: [1].
A total has-been.
@Scraggle: That's why I said Azog's actions are objectively more heinous than killing one person could ever be, but I was arguing not about audience response but about how the actual films' actual narrative frames said objectively more heinous actions and what it's trying to get across to the films' audience with said framing. Sometimes a villain will order an attack and possible massacre on civilians to show that "this is a bad guy who does bad things", and it's not indicative of the villain being a Complete Monster who does truly monstrous things.
voting on a character, either for or against, simply because you think they do or don't belong on the trope isn't how this thread works.
That is literally how this thread works. Obviously there's criteria that has to be met, but you still have to read an effort post and look back at the proposed villains' deeds (especially if you're familiar with the work they come from) and decide whether they do or don't belong on the trope based on how well you personally think and feel they hit the criteria.
edited 30th May '17 8:07:48 AM by ANewMan
So....
Um...
Here's my write up for Brainiac.
Should I do anything special with the formatting since this comes after Joker, or can I just leave it as is?
- Injustice 2: Brainiac is the cold and ruthless collector of worlds who threatens the Injustice universe in the sequel. Shown in a flashback to have stolen Argo City and Kandor before destroying Krypton, Brainiac arrives on Earth after learning that Superman was defeated. Intrigued, Brainiac sends his Betas to round up, scan and vaporise civilians as well as brainwashing several heroes. Stealing numerous cities, Brainiac smiles as he takes Metropolis, after which he seemingly kills Superman. Claiming that unless the heroes give him Supergirl to study how yellow sun radiation affects Kryptonian cells he will order his Betas to self-destruct, igniting Earth’s atmosphere and wiping out all its life; in doing so he betrays Gorilla Grodd and the Society that were working with him. When Supergirl and Batman infiltrate his Skull Ship they find at least dozens of shrunken cities from different worlds giving a small glimpse of the scale of Brainiac’s atrocities. They are captured, Brainiac intending to vivisect Supergirl while dismissively leaving Batman to be killed. Personally murdering Doctor Fate, Brainiac is confronted by Superman, to which Brainiac boasts that he has killed billions of Kryptonians. With countless crimes of theft and genocide Brainiac justifies himself with this line: “I value knowledge. And like your metal trinkets, knowledge is more valuable when it is rare.”
(Special Thanks to Very Melon for help with the opening line.)
(And very special thanks to ACW and Fried Warthog for their comments and suggestions in P Ms.)
I also found a quote from the game that might be good:
“I match your strength. You cannot match my intellect. You are only a Kryptonian… of which I have killed billions.”
Injustice 2, Brainiac to Superman.
edited 30th May '17 10:17:04 AM by PolarPhantom
Brainiac is one of those clear, easy keepers, I'd say.
Caesar
Handy 'Yes' votes to Noah and Brainiac.
See, here's my issue with the counterarguments for Azog. The moral agency stuff I can understand. I may not agree with them, but I can understand it.
But.....arguing that he's not heinous enough? THAT is my problem here. No one is...really saying WHY he's not heinous enough.
Saying "I didn't feel that he stood out enough" doesn't work here when Azog goes out of his way to order an entire city razed, something NO other Orc commander does on his own initiative.
Explain to us WHY you think he's not heinous enough. Claiming that "It's just faceless masses so it doesn't have emotional weight" is, to put frankly, a ridiculous argument and if it were the case, countless CMs wouldn't count because most of their crimes are against just "faceless masses".
No other Orc shows the initiative to order slaughter like Azog, no other Orc shows the needless sadism and cruelty of Azog, and no one else, Orc or otherwise, with the same resources has the attempted bodycount of complete innocents of Azog.
Also, Smaug has jack to do with the heinousness of Azog. Smaug is a motherflipping DRAGON who could probably take on an entire Orc army by himself and come out the victor. Saying that him trying to destroy a city with "no resources" and comparing that to Azog is insane.
edited 30th May '17 8:13:25 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I'd replace that with this:
Partly because your first sentence is implying a comparison to every version of Brainiac that the reader is supposed to be familiar with already.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
@UltraTwilight: What's SMT again?
Okay, in case anyone missed it, Azog is 13 ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
, 7 (8?) ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
, and about 8 or 9 abstain.
This is now seven pages this discussion has lasted. At this point I don't feel like anyone else is gonna change their votes, and Azog is clearly is in the lead now. Do you guys want more votes or do you wanna go ahead and get the writeup done now?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Yes to Brainiac here.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think that's in reference to Shin Megami Tensei.
@ANewMan ...except Azog's attack on innocent civilians is treated within story as a heinous, despicable act? And even barring that out, in terms of having a villain commit personal crimes against identifiable and sympathetic that frame them as a monstrous individual that needs to be stopped? Azog butchers Fili in full witness of the other dwarves and kills Thorin himself later in single battle. The Lurtz argument completely falls apart even if you're just weighing deeds like those.
And you misunderstand what I was saying on my post there; I was echoing a previous post on terms of voting up of a candidate because of a "gut feeling." That's not how this trope works in any regard, but it seems a few of the votes there were motivated by that regardless.
edited 30th May '17 8:19:47 AM by Scraggle
That was kind of my intention, but I understand.
Also, SMT is Shin Megami Tensei. To answer the Gabriel question, she was the only arch angel who questioned what they were doing.
edited 30th May '17 8:20:15 AM by PolarPhantom
At any rate, Tyk is right...let's move on for now.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
PP: I'll take care of the formatting.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Unknown Unknown
Damn. I go to sleep and there's 6 more pages. Yeezus.
Brainiac
Concurred. I've said all I can say and any more will just result in us arguing in circles. Which is largely what we've been doing for the past few pages.
edited 30th May '17 8:20:36 AM by Scraggle
Yeah, I think in a bunch like that, being the only one morally unsure means quite a bit.
I'll change my Azog vote to a . I'm not being flip-floppy, but I do think he counts for hitting for mark now.
edited 30th May '17 8:30:58 AM by VeryMelon
I'm glad we had Injustice!Brainiac. It's nice to have someone so cut and dry every now and then.
edited 30th May '17 8:23:39 AM by PolarPhantom
That's...going to need a lot more for it to be a proper effortpost.
All I'm seeing is he wants to rape and murder the main character and some Offscreen Villainy
edited 30th May '17 8:26:44 AM by Lightysnake
I agree with Lighty. Barry sounds bad but we need a little more info. What else, if anything, has he done? Are there any other villains? What have they done? You know, that sort of stuff.
edited 30th May '17 8:30:27 AM by PolarPhantom
Yeah. For instance, how bad's the protagonist? In a vampire story, the heinous standard can get skewed if the protagonist is an open murderer/rapist (I'm looking at you, Vampire Diaries)...we need to know the other villains and what they do and what else this bad guy does. Just wanting to rape and dismember the hero won't put him up
Well damn. I go to sleep, and the Azog discussion expands by like, three or four pages.
Anyway, talked with Polar Phantom a while back and a definite yes to what feels like the hundred millionth incarnation of Brainiac to count. Really surprised by how well Jeffrey Combs' voice fit the guy.
edited 30th May '17 8:44:50 AM by FriedWarthog
Yeah, to chip in on the whole A Million Is a Statistic thing? We're supposed to care about major named characters more than unnamed background characters, but in terms of heinous actions and within the context of the setting, killing one-thousand minor characters is objectively more heinous than killing one likable major character. That sort of argument on Azog simply isn't one that works in any regard.
My vote for Azog remains unchanged. While this entire debacle is, to put it lightly, a mess, I'm entirely convinced Azog operates with moral choice and his actions are heinous enough by the standards of the setting. Maybe I don't think he's as hateable or repulsive as some other less evil characters in the setting, but as was said, voting on a character, either for or against, simply because you think they do or don't belong on the trope isn't how this thread works. From where I'm standing, Azog manages the hit the criteria.
And yes, Ramsay's torture of Theon belongs on the entry. Unsympathetic character or not, what Ramsay does to him there is just awful.
edited 30th May '17 7:58:53 AM by Scraggle