During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Caesar
For one thing, back when Syndrome was discussed originally, Offscreen Villainy was treated much more stricter than it is now. Now, as long as we see the aftereffects of a villain's crimes, corpses or the like, it's not offscreen anymore.
Syndrome's massacre of dozens of heroes was originally ruled as offscreen villainy, which it, for the most part, was. However, due to the way offscreen villainy works now, the fact that one of Syndrome's victims' corpses are shown, along with the many lingering and haunting images of heroes being proclaimed terminated, it counts to his heinousness.
Second of all, almost everyone is now acknowledging that Syndrome's backstory was not sympathetic at all, which directly contradicts what is in his current 'Never Again' entry. So, two reasons, his crimes now being recognized as more heinous, and his backstory being torn apart to show how petty he is, is what has sparked this re-evaluation.
edited 27th Jun '16 4:38:21 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
I think I'll toss in a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for Hagen.
Yeezus, the thread exploded while I was gone.
Anyways, I will address the point about the "no capes" joke: The way I see it, accidental superhero deaths being Played for Laughs isn't an issue with the heinous standard. I'll give you the villain trying to blow up the city, though. Abstaining on Syndrome now.
However, I think we can all agree that his "Never Again" entry needs a rewrite if he's voted down.
Yeah this is a complete mess. Abstain on Syndrome. Although I must admit I did overlook that detail about the villain from the flashback trying to blow up the city, and I have watched The Incredibles at least four or five times.
Caesar
I'm sorry, but that "Rocket aimed at city" doesn't have near enough context to be chalked into the story's heinous bar. How do we know he was trying to blow up the city? Maybe it wasn't that strong. Maybe it would only blow one or two buildings. Maybe it was going to release a gas that turned all it infected green. We have no context to know what that rocket was going to do, and just as easily as you could argue it was going to dsestroy the city, I could argue it would only harm one building. There was no ambiguity with Syndrome's plan to cause tons of collateral damage with his Omnidroid.
edited 27th Jun '16 4:54:35 PM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'd say that argument's complete bogus. I think a rocket aimed at a city speaks for itself; in comparison, Syndrome means to cause collateral damage but wanton destruction is certainly not the main objective in his circumstance, simply a side-effect to better butter-up the city's citizens so he can look better as a hero. Letting the Omnidroid onto the city doesn't really tilt much anything in his favor considering long-term destruction isn't even his main goal here (unlike the missile-toting supervillain we saw earlier, who was clearly aiming for some wide swath of destruction), and what we do see is, as Lighty said, generic kids' supervillain stuff.
Honestly, I think the point we should really be arguing on is his murder of the retired supers; the revelation of that is played with an appropriate pathos I think contrasts the earlier gag enough. That's really what would be the sticking point for me, alongside his numerous other Kick the Dog moments.
As for not killing the babysitter, and this is a point I've seen used a lot against him... Pragmatic Villainy. Nothing more.
edited 27th Jun '16 5:02:05 PM by Scraggle
Yeah it always annoys me when people try to use him not killing the babysitter against him. Why would he try to kill the babysitter and cause a needless scene that could endanger his plans when he can simply snatch the baby up with no trouble at all? That's Stupid Evil.
Caesar
I completely agree that the robot isn't hs sticking point. That is, as has been said, fairly standard villainy. I'm just saying that using a cut away gag with no context as a measuring stick for heinousness is a very awkward way to go about measuring the heinousness.
The fact is, I can't say anymore on the retured heroes than I already have. Syndrome lured retired, out of their game, superheroes to an island with the promise of letting them, for once in a long time, be themselves, only to brutally murder each and every one of them. And yet, some refuse to see this as especially heinous, with arguments like "They're heroes. Killing them is average" when not many are acknowledging that they were retired and out of practice, and were killed after being decieved with theclaims that they could be "heroes" once again.
There's also, you know, the physical and psychological torture of the hero (Torture is torture. Doesn't matter who against), trying to murder a woman and her children for no reason (At the moment) pother thanto hurt Mr. Incredible, and his all-around other Kick the Dog moments of being a sadistic, petty, prick.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Messenger from another dimension.
Syndrome certainly meets the baseline. He is well over MEH. I just don't think he actually steps into a CM category.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
I haven't seen the movie in a good while, but Syndrome seemed pretty standard to me. Typical comic-booky villain.
While unleashing the Omnidroid is standard villainy, I do think it is worth noting that after he loses his remote, he tries to flee, and after he awakens and finds that the Incredibles and Frozone stopped it while he was knocked out. That shows that he doesn't care that, had they not stopped it while he was out, it would have killed people. He would have rather had the Omnidroid continue its rampage than have it stopped by them instead of him.
jjj
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Wolf Sunsoar, which, incidentally, is a heroic-sounding name for an awful individual. Any other CMs Awesome McCoolname? It's an interesting contrast.
to Hagen. He's a racist, sexist dick, but he doesn't truly cross the line in my mind.
I'm not touching the Syndrome debate with a ten-foot pole.
Lost in Space
Alright, we are canning the Syndrome debate. No "new information" was proposed; it was just a rehash of the old arguments, exactly as expected. No change is to be made to the "Never Again" list and notice is given that any attempt to raise the topic again will result in forum suspensions.
Anyone who mentions the "villains wiki" as support for any CM candidate will also be banned from the topic (after an initial warning).
edited 27th Jun '16 6:18:28 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
So I had a question in regards to the Nogitsune from Teen Wolf. He was selected as a CM, but I'm just questioning that a bit given he did keep his promise to not let one of his minions hurt Malia if Stiles let him possess him. Now granted I don't know if this is so much honor given he was using Stiles to kill everyone including his other friends, and more just him simply feeling it didn't matter whether or not he was gonna let her live, but anyone who has seen Teen Wolf, what do you think?
edited 27th Jun '16 6:24:03 PM by zcooper95
Wild Child
With Syndrome out of the way, can we focus on Wolfstar and Hagen now? For the record, my vote is still yes for Wolfstar, but a firm no on Hagen.
Why so serious?
...I really need to get around to writing up those Matthew Reilly candidates, and then I may just drop this from my watchlist indefinitely.
There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
Zcooper: I think its a little bit of both regarding the Nogitsiune - it does try to kill Stiles anyway and given its mindset, I think it didn't matter to it who got killed, just as long as they where killed.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ok so you think it should stay in the category?
If there is only one villain in the setting, how can they count as monsters? It seems like it makes it a bit harder, because there is no one for them to stand out to.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I'm pretty happy I was offline at the time myself, because I've seen numerous conversations about him
edited 27th Jun '16 7:04:51 PM by Mediawatcher
A total has-been.
...........Wow. I take one rest from being online and come back to find I missed the Syndrome explosion. Should I count myself lucky? 
Uhhh...what? They....can still stand out as one.
Wild Child
...What? How is that a valid question? If there's only one villain, we just judge them if they pass the baseline.
edited 27th Jun '16 7:04:47 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
Once again I ask a stupid and obvious question
Wow that Syndrome seems to be quite the diverse topic right now, I'm just going to abstain from him.
I think my hatred of re-evaluations prevents me from being objective here, so I'll play it safe and abstain. I probably will not change this vote so please don't try to convince me.