During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Now, I'm on the Channel 4 broadcast of Agents Of Shield, but I strongly doubt Ward is a CM. Crossing the MEH, yes, but that's about it.
When you finish Hatred, Not Important's bodycount is easily in the thousands, and very likely tens of thousands. He causes a nuclear explosion. He also makes a sort of joke in the ending. It's not funny, other than narm, but it shows he has at least got a bad sense of humour.
Lost in Space
I'm cautiously in favor of Whoreson Junior from The Witcher 3, because despite being a minor villain he manages to rack up an impressive string of qualifications including the serial torture/murder of prostitutes. The problem is that he lives in a world with omnicidal maniacs, inquisitors who torture and burn people at the stake for the sin of possibly being witches, and vampires who pour formaldehyde down people's throats to burn the evil out of them. And I'm only halfway through the game.
The world is so unremittingly horrible that it's really hard to establish a standard of heinousness.
edited 2nd Jun '15 3:47:12 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Gah, that may throw the whole universe's heinous standard off.
Eredin Breacc Glas, the King of the Wild Hunt, is the closest thing to an Omnicidal Maniac the franchise has.
Besides that, everyone on the Witcher CM page still deserves to be on there because they meet the heinousness standard for the setting at the their resource levels.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lost in Space
But here's the rub: if everyone is "as heinous as they could possibly be given their circumstances", then no one character stands out enough to qualify. You have to be exceptional both in a relative and absolute sense.
The reason I like Whoreson Junior as an example is that he's one of the few badguys that Geralt displays actual hatred towards.
edited 2nd Jun '15 4:44:32 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm guessing he means everyone on The Witcher. If it's everyone period, that would be an issue.
Giving a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Hatred character. I've seen an all cutscenes movie (the game is pretty short storywise) and he's a keep.
Also, why are we talking about Grant Ward ? We already know he doesn't count, he's only like 85% monster, and it's likely he's gonna stay that way.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
From the writeup, Ward seems to be overshadowed by the Clairvoyant anyway.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
From what I've heard, Hatred Guy sounds like a GDV to me. A street-level Anti-Monitor, sorta.
I have yet to finish Witcher 3, think I'm 2/3rds done about but not sure, will probably take another week for me to beat it. So I'm going to avoid the forums like the plague while this game is being discussed. That being said, I have completed the part of the game that includes Whoreson Jr, and I'll say right now, I'm leaning against him. I know what he's done, and I'll give more in-depth arguments against him once I've beaten the game, but for now I'll just say the heinous standard in the third game is really freaking high. I mean, the games have always been dark, but this game in particular takes it to a new level.
Whoreson Junior, much like Bernard Loredo before him, stands out as being a completely non magical human who earns the antipathy and hatred and everyone he meets and has committed many heinous acts like betraying all his allies for personal power and bathing in the blood of prostitutes that he rapes and murders beforehand. Not to mention, at least Loredo wasn't a dirty coward.
Also, the King of the Wild Hunt has crimes that stretch back into the original Witcher novels so I don't know if the standard for the third game can be necessarily set by him.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Oh right, that character has no personality beyond that so he violates one of the essential CM requirements.
edited 2nd Jun '15 4:35:15 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hatred video. Not much of a personality, but appears to be Ronan-level.
Lore Deluxe, about that "living prop"...
edited 2nd Jun '15 4:31:19 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I've decided to vote on Not Important, even though I find it difficult to take him seriously. Which might be the point.
If he just put a shirt on he'd be more credible. Regardless, I feel he fits.
Foreign Troper
PS: It's GERALT (the Protagonist of The Witcher, that is), not Gareth, that would be the guy from Thief 
Lost in Space
Agh. I knew that and I typed it wrong anyway. /sigh
As far as Witcher goes, I haven't played 3 yet, so I can't really join in quite yet.
However, I will defend Vilggefortz of Roggeveen and Leo Bonhart from the novels being on that list to the death. Vilgy is a megalomaniac sociopath with a god complex responsible for tons of evil monstrosity while Leo Bonhart is a serial killing torturer and attempted rapist who is a mercenary/assassin specifically because he loves killing people.
Even in the games, they'd put most villains to shame. Especially Bonhart.
Do you think Eredin qualifies based on his novel actions alone?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
"Oh right, that character has no personality beyond that so he violates one of the essential CM requirements." So more of a representative of a group (like O'Brien)?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
on the novels alone? Nope.
What do you believe to be the disqualifiers if going by novels alone?
That's a good comparison.
Messenger from another dimension.
Whoreson Junior
I absoulutely see ZERO reason to cut any Witcher villain that is already on there. They were discussed and kept.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
The only keeps from the novels are Vilggefortz and Leo Bonhart.
It is worth noting the level of discrepancy between video games and novels. In the novels, you get to experience every sickening thing Leo Bonhart did, but the video games only allow us to see what Geralt sees. I know people would be more willing to up vote if we actually saw Whoreson Junior raping and carving up a prostitute as opposed to seeing only the aftermath of him bathing in the victim's blood.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Lost in Space
We see their mutilated corpses strewn about his room. Gruesomely explicit. One could almost imagine the developer pandering to a vore fetish.
It's so bad that Geralt's usual "be nice/be mean" dialog options are a choice between slaughtering him like a pig and beating him senseless for information, then killing him.
Well, there is a Not Worth Killing option, but I would find it hard to imagine who might choose it.
Edit: on Whoreson, in case it wasn't obvious.
edited 2nd Jun '15 8:44:34 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
edited 2nd Jun '15 3:23:45 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts