During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I think I might have someone new for the list, but there's a cutscene I need to check, and if I'm recalling it correctly, then it's an instant disqualification.
edited 5th Mar '15 6:26:20 PM by Ekimmak
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Check that then, and get back to us after.
Anyone have thoughts on these awful examples?
As far as I'm concerned, with Fanfic examples, if they don't qualify based on their entries alone, just cut them.
While I can't seem to find the cutscene (for some reason, it only played the first time you run the level, and never again after that), the battle itself had dialogue that confirmed what I thought: he actually cared about somebody.
Shame. Thought I had found something.
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
All right, so from what I can tell, Purple Guy is gonna get scratched; so far Bobg and I are the only two who have given him a go. As for Sol...well, for Warrior Cats in general, I've only read the first arc. So I personally do not know how evil certain characters are unless I get around to reading the books myself (which will be a hassle, since I'm currently working on reading the A Song of Ice and Fire books). I'm only giving my votes based on what other tropers are putting down as his list of crimes.
Is there anything about Sol that makes him at least slightly sympathetic to the readers?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
@Ambar: I have only suggested two villains from Warriors, so what you're saying is hyperbolic. And what was your reason for no on Dickson after I had proved he didn't get an APV death?
And err... I didn't know Higuchi had been cut. I haven't been here for a while and I don't really feel like using the search feature for every example.
Honestly, I'm having my doubts that anyone in Death Note qualifies. It's pretty much a black and gray morality, but I'm starting to see where Shaokan is coming from. Don't get me wrong, I still think Manga!Light and maybe Movie!Light qualify, but the universe is so crapsack that I don't even think a sadistic mass murderer who preys on the weak would stand out. It's the same feeling I have for Grand Theft Auto and Resident Evil.
I think adding Light would be very controversial as if we were to add Hitler or Stalin for example. Some may think he's a monster, while others either believe in his ideaology or don't think he's pure evil. That and there's a lot of DIL Ping involving him.
Anyone up for adding Mr. Yagami in Constant Temptation? He's a gun toting, psychotic, abusive, homophobe who wants to kill his son.
And no, Sol doesn't have anything that makes him the least bit sympathetic towards the readers.
edited 5th Mar '15 7:29:29 PM by Klavice
...That means exactly nothing when it comes to this thread.
@Klavice
You're right. You've only proposed Sol and One-Eye. You have, however, talked non-stop about the series. You've repeatedly asked us if we were going to cut certain characters or keep them, demanded answers without providing information, etc. You obviously love the series, and that's great, but you're approaching Single-Issue Wonk status when it comes to it.
My vote on Sol stands as a "no". His Freudian Excuse, coupled with his absolutely pathetic desire to be accepted, are disqualifiers. Everything he does is in a pitiful attempt to get some Clan, somewhere, to give him Warrior status, before finally turning on them when that doesn't work out. It's obvious he's got severe abandonment issues from his lousy upbringing, and he never crosses the lines that some of the series' other villains do. Before you say that his Freudian Excuse is insufficient, maybe so, but at least he's got one. That's more than I can say for Brokenstar or Tigerstar. Hell, even Scourge didn't get an excuse until years after his book was published. Anyway, firm "no". Reminds me way too much of Aeglyss from The Godless World Trilogy, actually.
How in the Hell is the Death Note world too dark for anyone to qualify? Seriously, it's not Berserk (and even then we have three qualifiers). L tortured one girl. Light murdered thousands. Hell, in his first week with the Note he killed or hurt more people than L, Near, and Mello put together. And your comparisons fail because we have examples from Resident Evil. It also doesn't matter if the decision is controversial. If people want to dispute his inclusion they can bloody well come to this thread and argue with us.
I'm not getting back into the Dickson debate. Your description did not convince me that he qualified and that's all that really matters.
edited 5th Mar '15 7:55:30 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Tigerstar and Brokenstar do have excuses though. Tigerstar's dad left the clans to become a kitty pet, his mom died when he was really young, and he was the runt of the litter.
As for Brokenstar, he was bullied by his entire clan for simply being born. And I think it's just as flimsy as Sol's.
edited 5th Mar '15 8:10:00 PM by Klavice
Just a nitpick; Mello went on a killing spree as soon as he got the Death Note, decimating the SPK and the Mafia, as well as the military team sent to kill him. He might very well have a killing spree comparable to Light's first week with the Death Note, so you might want to remove him from the list there.
edited 5th Mar '15 8:13:24 PM by Shaoken
Neither of those show up in the actual books though. Sol's does if memory serves.
Moreover though, Tigerstar's excuse is not a driving motivation for what he does. "Had a tough childhood" does not immediately lead to "became a psychotic Nazi-analogue" for most people. It explains his issues with Firestar and other kittypets, but it doesn't explain his obsession with pure bloodlines, his drive for more and more control, or his ultimate betrayal of everything his Clan stands for.
Same goes for Brokenstar. The whole Clan shoved you around? Then getting out would be the logical decision. Not having a whole generation of their children massacred.
Sol, on the other hand? His actions are all explained by his Freudian Excuse. Not justified, but explained. He was raised by a mom who didn't want him, didn't even name him, and eventually abandons him. His dad was already out of the picture. He grows up idolising the Clans, builds them up in his head as this perfect society that will accept him, then turns out to be too damaged to fit in with them either, and turns on them. I can sympathise with that, if only a little, and more importantly, I can follow the train of logic that leads from what happened to him, to what he's become.
Don't think so. By the time Ryuk arrives at the end of the first week, Light's filled in pages of the Death Note. Even Mello didn't go that far.
edited 5th Mar '15 8:19:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
How do you know? We never see the inside of the Death Note while Mello has it in his possession. My whole point was your argument was faulty because you are making a claim where there is zero evidence to back it up.
You know, I don't think I ever finished my replay of Valkyria Chronicles 2. That said, I'm pretty sure that Baldren Gassernarl earned his place as CM. Before he killed his father, he has some redeeming factors, but when he crossed that line, he leaped over it and never looked back. He doesn't even care that his sister gave her life to the cause.
It just bugs me how he tried to recruit Class G before the final battle.
If everyone were normal, the world would be a dull place. Like reality television.
Honestly, did we ever give an in-dpeth look to Maximilian in part 1?
Would be worth seeing an effortpost given that I haven't played the sequel yet.
As for the killer from Five Nights at Freddy's, I'm going to give a cautious ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. He commits the worst crimes of the franchise, but I'm not entirely sure what his motives are and we can't entirely rely on speculation. I'm also going to say to Sol for the reasons Ambar already stated on post 36597. Finally, I'm not sure if we're going to get a proposal for Mello, but if there is then I say a for him failing the heinousness standard when compared to Light.
Mello would be disqualified for other reasons, namely redeeming features.
Don't have to. He's already on the page, it's just that a few months ago I raised a question about it, but was convinced otherwise, and my unfinished playthrough of it confirmed what was said.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Mello was best friends with Matt and felt deeply upset when he was killed, despite being a Mauve Shirt. I'm pretty sure that alone disqualifies him right there.
"He was raised by a mom who didn't want him, didn't even name him, and eventually abandons him. His dad was already out of the picture. He grows up idolizing the Clans, builds them up in his head as this perfect society that will accept him, then turns out to be too damaged to fit in with them either, and turns on them."
....Uhh, you failed to mention any of this, Klavice. Pretty sure that's sympathetic enough for him to be a . Although I am curious, Ambar. Why was One-Eye struck from the list again? I think in my periods of absences I missed that.
So is the debate for Anime!Light still going on? Or have we already come to a conclusion?
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
No one's arguing Mello counts. Shaoken is suggesting that Mello is bad enough to disqualify Light. Or at least bad enough to disqualify a point I was making about Light.
@Shaoken
The series shows us the number of people that Light killed (by showing us page after page of filled in notebook). If it wanted us to think that Mello killed a similar number it could do so the exact same way. I mean, all due respect man, but this is getting silly. Under that logic we couldn't qualify anybody because hey, how do we know that random guy over there didn't kill more people?
edited 5th Mar '15 11:14:10 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I'm not arguing that Mello should be counted, I'm pointing out that Ambar's statement of "Light in his first week has a bigger body count than L, Near and Mello combined" is stupid since we are never told or shown how many people Mello killed during his time with the Death Note. At the very least he killed 20-25 people, but theoretically he could have also filled pages before he lost it. Conversely he could have killed a grand total of one person a day, either way the work simply doesn't care about how many criminal die as it's not the point of the story.
Anime!Light and Movie!Light appear to be wrapped up, although the former might need a vote tally to make sure. Manga!Light also seems like the debate run it's course but nobody has given us a final tally yet.
@ Ambar: "If it wanted us to think that Mello killed a similar number it could do so the exact same way. I mean, all due respect man, but this is getting silly. Under that logic we couldn't qualify anybody because hey, how do we know that random guy over there didn't kill more people? "
Now you're being stupid again and missing my point; you made a statement about the death tolls in the series, I pointed out that your argument was bullshit; you made a claim that Light in one week with the Death Note had a higher body count than L (0), Near (~1), and Mello (over 20) and passed that argument off as if it was a proven, certifiable fact despite the fact that your claim is unprovable as the work doesn't care about the number of criminals being killed and thus never gave us any figures. None of this has any relevance to the greater discussion, I just saw you made a terrible argument and called you out on it.
edited 5th Mar '15 11:28:44 PM by Shaoken
To which I would respond that since we are never told or shown how many people Mello killed the writer clearly didn't consider it very important. In contrast, the series makes a substantial deal out of the number of people that Light killed, with Ryuk commenting that he's never seen another person kill so many people with the Death Note in so short a time. The number of people Light killed is ergo, supposed to be exceptional. Since the series does not do anything similar for Mello, my takeaway is that we were not supposed to think it substantial.
That said, we're essentially arguing semantics here, since even if I were to grant that my specific example if wrong, my overall point stands. Light killed far more people than anybody else who had the Death Note, and most of the other high-ranking killers (Higuchi, Mikami, Misa, Takada) were working for him, or being used by him, meaning that we can fold their crimes in with his. The only character unaffiliated with him to get their hands on the Death Note and use it to kill any sizable number of people is Mello, and at no point does the series state, suggest, or even imply, that he killed anything like the number of people that Light did. In short, Light still blows everybody else away when it comes to the heinous standard.
EDIT:I'm being stupid, huh? You know, over the course of your and my time in this clean-up we have both agreed, and disagreed on a large number of things. In that time though, I don't believe I've ever attacked your intelligence. Said you were wrong, sure. Said an argument was silly, yes. Actually accused you of being stupid? Not to my knowledge. Say I'm wrong. Say my argument is nonsensical. But kindly refrain from attacking my IQ.
edited 5th Mar '15 11:35:02 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
- Ekimmak, just out of curiosity, who was the character who cared about someone?
- Now I'm wondering if we should cut the killer from Squidward's Suicide.
- I still don't see why Hedley doesn't count if played seriously, regardless of whether the work is a parody.
edited 5th Mar '15 11:52:04 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Aaaaaaand I think now is the time for me to go to sleep. X___X
@Ambar and Shaoken: Huh. Well someone seems grumpy and needs cheering up.
I'm just gonna leave this here.
Because reasons.
See you guys later.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Klavice, your attempts at getting every single Warriors villain put up are growing very tiring.
edited 5th Mar '15 6:22:22 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar