During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Zzzzzzzzzz
I will argue against Nurse Ratched for this reason: while she's the face of everything that's wrong with the mental hospital in Cuckoo's Nest, she is not the one who is ultimately responsible for it being the hellhole it is. That's the never-seen doctors and administrators. She doesn't decide to lobotomize McMurphy. I would further argue that she's a classic Well-Intentioned Extremist: her primary goal in doing the things she does is not to terrorize and brutalize the patients; she is doing them to "maintain order in the ward"; the terror and brutality are unfortunate but unavoidable side effects.
edited 4th Sep '14 8:43:06 AM by Madrugada
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Lizzid people!
I don't completely agree with your statement, Madrugada. She is mostly portrayed as being a very cruel woman, and she was shown as being aware as to what would possibly happen to one of the patients had she threatened to tell his mother about his behavior. There's also the fact that she ran the mental hospital with an iron fist, so she's also the reason as to why the mental hospital is the way that it is now. I honestly don't see any signs of her being a WIE because of this fact.
edited 4th Sep '14 9:01:33 AM by AustinDR
I feel like this bit from under Moral Event Horizon on that same page is relevant here:
- In the book, she has been on the wrong end of the moral event horizon for many years, as she is seen to submit her charges to torture for crossing her (the scene with the germophobe after the fishing trip, the forced anal administration of medication to a patient merely because he questioned what the pills were for), the electroshock 'therapy', and she has also lobotomized patients as punishment for behavior she dislikes. Nurse Ratched is utterly monstrous in the book.
edited 4th Sep '14 9:13:32 AM by KyleJacobs
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Nurse Ratched
Sounds to me that Ratched is a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
, I haven't seen the movie or read the book, but she strikes me as someone akin to Chris Hargensen from Carrie - a horrible person but not enough one her plate to be a CM.
Lizzid people!
At least Chris never performed lobotomies on her victims, nor did she ever force someone to resort to suicide. Ratched is way above her lead, especially in the novel.
I vote no on Nurse Ratched. I feel like the heinousness standard is higher than she meets. The book is meant to illustrate a real life problem that was enacted in a large scale primarily by money hungry people either trying to cash in with cheaply run facilities or to save money by rallying for less money to be spent by the government on mental health care. None of these people are in the book directly, but it is made clear that this is a systemic problem. I feel like this is similar to To Kill A Mockingbird. Most people treated the mentally ill like less-than-people (shit, many still do).
Plus it is iffy as to whether or not Ratched is doing what she honestly thinks is best. She is clearly a sadist, but I am not sure she knows that.
I agree with Madrugada. She's the face of evil, but not actually responsible for it. She's rather like O'Brien from 1984 in that regard.
I also agree, though not with her being a WIE, I'm going to give her a .
A total has-been.
At the end of the day, while Ratched's not responsible for the system she works in, she takes the fullest advantage of it so that she can abuse the power and privilege she's been given to wield over people who are on the complete opposite spectrum from her as much as she can. She's the worst sort of bully, one that ensures she's in a position where she feels she can get away with it. That's why I see her as a .
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
That's sort of exactly what I'm saying. Ewell and Ratched are both leeches of their respective flawed systems.
edited 4th Sep '14 11:25:57 AM by AnewMan
Lizzid people!
@rexpensive: Except with Bob Ewell, it was established that he used the system at the time for his own benefit so that he could get Tom sentenced to death. Does the same principle apply for Ratched? I feel the same applies for her as well. If she were indeed just a representative of the mental institutes at the time, then I may need to change my vote. But as of right now, I am still not seeing why she shouldn't count for this trope.
edited 4th Sep '14 11:29:52 AM by AustinDR
How is Ratched not the problem, though? When she loses her power, the living standard improves noticeably. I feel there's a mixing up of concepts: The concept of the face of a larger problem and the personification of that problem
I put Myotisom and Kurata on the Digimon subpages, ACW
Leaning yes on Beast's examples btw
Lizzid people!
There's also the fact that she ruled the hospital with an iron fist.
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Didn't we keep Ewell, actually?
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
Lizzid people!
Yes, HT, we did. I was just restating what had already been said about Ewell and about how he used the system at the time to benefit him.
The discussion on him was here [1].
edited 4th Sep '14 11:35:25 AM by AustinDR
Siiiiiiiiiiiip
Voting no on Rachet for the same reason as Maddy. There's something more evil than her, and she only crosses the MEH at best.
...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.
Lizzid people!
I feel that Ratched is intentionally using the system for her own benefits, though. She also appears to be extremely heinous in the book, if you read what Kyle Jacobs said about her. I am also still not seeing how she's supposed to be a WIE, though. It is also made apparent that when she lost her power over the mental patients, the hospital improved majorly, thus showing that she was responsible for the shape that the hospital was in. Also, why count the doctors? They are minor antagonists, so that leaves Ratched as being the only possible threat in the film/book. Explain to me why she should be a WIE, because I am still not seeing it.
edited 4th Sep '14 11:48:50 AM by AustinDR
This feels like it's going to be another big discussion. What are the total votes for Ratched?
edited 4th Sep '14 11:47:52 AM by VeryMelon
Lizzid people!
Keep: Myself, A New man, possibly Lightysnake, you, possibly Kyle Jacobs
Cut: Irene, Ambar, rexpensive, Mada (Madrugada), beast, Occasional Exister (possibly), camberf, Xavius
Neutral: ACW
Sanfran also gave her a in a previous discussion of her. Should this count?
edited 4th Sep '14 3:13:34 PM by AustinDR
We always counted previous votes.
Lizzid people!
Oh, okay then.
I also said cut.
Lizzid people!
Just added it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
BTW, with Ewell, even if he IS a product of the system, didn't he also try to kill the kids?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Still, given that she's supposed to care for people's mental health, breaking a patient so badly he commits suicide is pretty damn bad...
The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."