Settlement expansion in Palestine.

I don't agree. When it comes to convincing people people, and reaching agreements, yes. But for acctually doing stuff clear lines can be better for actually getting stuff done (although it caries the danger of getting the wrong thing done)

Edit: sorry double post

edited 29th Sep '10 1:44:19 PM by Kzickas

The Bottom Line Politics Is The Mind-Killer One Argument Against A Thousand

All part of the sequence How To Actually Change Your Mind

It is a site about rationality. It would be perfect if it wasn't so militantly anti-theist, but you might end up seeing where they come from after you bask in their writings a bit. Two of their authors have issued interesting fanfictions that might serve as a light introduction to their concepts. Both are pleasant, funny, moving, and well-plotted: don't expect these guys to leave any plot holes. I present to you Harry Potter And The Methods Of Rationality, an interesting AU Harry Potter fic, and Luminosity, a reimagining of Twilight if Bella was a rational person. YES, I know it sounds impossible and crack and against common sense but the author manages to make it work. Both only start to get truly interesting at around chapter 5, but they both soon become roller-coasters of fun and excitement, at least in my humble opinion. I might even suggest you read either of them before getting into the sequences, just to get in the mood.

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with the site of which you speak Raw. Could you perhaps PM me on it?

Raw Power is referencing the Jewish Defense League and Jewish Internet Defense Force

http://www.jdl.org/ http://www.thejidf.org/

edited 29th Sep '10 4:39:54 PM by BalloonFleet

You sent those to troll me, right? Well, it was effective, I am slightly annoyed now...

Certainly there's nothing demonic about [Islam,] a hateful and violent ideology which encourages the murder of all non-Muslims, dehumanizes Jews as apes and pigs, and that was founded by a genocidal murder of Jews. Please see these photos (before they are deemed illegal!)

ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ

What ಠ_ಠ me the most is how sure they appear to be, the "of course we are entirely right and they are inherently evil and why are there still people who don't understand". It also irks me how they seem to believe they are upholding humanistic values of tolerance and freedom and liberalism... My God... what a mental wasteland...

edited 29th Sep '10 4:48:18 PM by RawPower

Professional NGO backed internet trolls?

Pfft, they're selling out. Real trolling is about passion.

...

...and these are the people I am advocating trying to convince to come to terms... wonderful.

People, meet your enemy. Human stupidity in its most vitriolic, hateful form.

You sent those to troll me, right? Well, it was effective, I am slightly annoyed now...

^^ Remember these are Jewish sites. Not just jewish sites, but ZIONIST sites. Given the JIIDF doesn't like the ADL's 'extreme leftism' and religious tolerance

Thanks to the ADL for this research. We hate your politics (extreme leftism), your defamation of Rabbi Kahane and Geert Wilders, as well as your constant sucking up to Islam (eg. leaving out the fact that some of the antisemitic content in the Hamas Charter comes directly from Islamic sources), but sometimes, when you actually focus on the real issues, you do some decent work

http://www.thejidf.org/2010/06/cartoons-throughout-arab-and-muslim.html

I'm surprised you WERENT referencing these guys/these sorts of people....

EDIT: roffle. since when was Muhammed a racist or advocated genocide?

edited 29th Sep '10 4:53:42 PM by BalloonFleet

Also, real trolling is for its own sake, not for the sake of an agenda. Or for professing and cheering.

^ Obviously those pictures make no valid points whatsoever. Not that the Muhammad ones I linked to didn't raise interesting points, but would you catch me saying they promoted Arab hate and dehumanization? Actually no, you wouldn't, not until they gave me the idea... I am getting a Not So Different vibe that I know is wrong, but I can't seem to articulate why.

edited 29th Sep '10 4:55:06 PM by RawPower

Oh come on, "You can't draw this" is hilarious.

edited 29th Sep '10 4:58:28 PM by DasAuto

I'm guessing that was "Can't draw this" set to the tune of "Can't Touch This"?

Yes.

That was a very precipitated Deductio Ex Machina, but you are absolutely right.

I lol'd at that one.

edited 29th Sep '10 5:02:56 PM by RawPower

"Which is why I favour a one-state solution of reforming Israel as a pluralistic, secular, multi-ethnic state that can accommodate the Palestinian people as something other than second-class citizens. Unfortunately, that is also pretty unrealistic. "

Uh, Israel alreddy is.

Hahahaha, no. Thank you for playing, don't come again.

How exactly are Palestinian people in Isreal "second-class citizens".

I finally found something which could argue to be objective on the subject. Here it is. I haven't read it all the way through yet, but the gist I got of it was that organised prejudice against Palestinians seems to be alive and well.

When I read it it sounds like some squatters got booted. There are a lot of uneeded quotations that the other wiki would call "weasel words" (Something against the law is illegal, the word isn't being used in an odd way)

It's pretty standard across the world if you build on land that you don't own or without a permit, the government doesn't tend to treat you very nice.

edited 30th Sep '10 2:51:20 PM by deuxhero

May I point to the 93% of Palestinians being denied permits? That'll do for now, off the top of my head.

EDIT:"Area C" is also where major Israeli colonisation efforts have been focused. The Israeli human rights NGO B'Tselem estimates the total area controlled by settlements at over 40 per cent of the West Bank.

More evidence of Israelis having ulterior motives in this.

further EDIT: More key points.

...a quarter of Palestinian towns and villages inside Israel lack a building "master plan" and are thus ineligible for permits. In addition, while roughly a thousand new Jewish communities have been established since 1948, not a single Arab town has been created — even as the minority population has multiplied by seven.

edited 30th Sep '10 2:53:40 PM by GameChainsaw

1:I'd like to here what was denied (see 3) 2:"earmarked for settlements" sounds like no one is building there yet. It isn't that suprising that Palestinians can't build there is no one else can either. 3: The demolished buildings built after being denied a permit were tent cities, likely why they are denied in the first place. Go down to your city hall and see how eager they would be to issue a permit for something like what was described. Also the article acts like these being demolished 4: How dare the military control what gets built in a war zone!

edited 30th Sep '10 3:02:49 PM by deuxhero

1: I'd like to hear what was being denied.

This gives more detail. I'd like to know why Israeli settlements take such primacy.

2: Earmarked for settlements.

Israeli settlements, I'd imagine. It would fit with the trend, would it not?

3: If you can't build a proper house, you're pretty much reduced to a tent. The key is not to destroy the tent towns, but to build new proper towns.

4: Maybe Israelis should stop moving into a warzone then. Why doesn't it apply to both sides?

I just looked up outside sources, there's a pretty big reason they were denied. Israel wasn't letting ANYONE build on the west bank till September (because of an agreement the Obama guys had them make, so "damned if you do"), so yeah, 95% of people in general aren't getting a permit (and I'm willing to bet the 5% wanted them for after September), not just Palestinians.

edited 30th Sep '10 3:21:56 PM by deuxhero

But why aren't they allowed to build there? West Bank isn't Israel proper, its Palestinian. The Palestinians should be able to build there with impunity. And anyway, I'm extremely skeptical of Israeli politicians, especially of a hardliner like Netanyahu.

Nonetheless, I've heard the arguments in that source. I know about the Hamas situation. But the settlements just give Hamas credibility and an excuse.

They probably have this ulterior motive; keep the Palestinians off the land, so they can get the Israelis on to the land.

edited 30th Sep '10 3:22:56 PM by GameChainsaw

And who decides where Israel's borders begin and end?

edited 30th Sep '10 3:53:20 PM by deuxhero

The international community. Something called the 1993 Oslo Accord and, before that, the 1948 Partition Plan.

My lack of knowledge of recent history is showing I think.

Well, here's the last piece of the puzzle I didn't possess.

edited 30th Sep '10 3:57:48 PM by GameChainsaw