Sinfest

Still better than these newfangled comic engines which have neither a date not an ID in the URL, only a title with the articles stripped.

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4770

Hmm, I don't if that's a very smart move, Monique, given that the Devil is watching as you speak.

A strike really only works if your employer can't drop you or your conspirators into Hell at moment's notice, cares about the laws of man, and can't replace you as fast as you can say "bomf".

Not to mention Fusch and Blue tried a strike before. Didn't seem to change much of anything.

Not to mention its a pretty shitty reason for a strike.

An employer has security cameras up and uses them to make sure his employees are actually staying on the job and not wandering off while on the clock? How dare he.

Aye, this joke has been done already, much better and with better reasons.

Didn't work back then. Why? Let's quote the bad guy: "I AM THE DEVIL!"

Unless the Sisterhood comes in to support the strike.

$50 says they never even try to get the demon males like the bouncers or the tech guys to help with the strike.

edited 27th Sep '13 12:13:07 AM by daveshan

Y'know, it just hit me that the bouncers would be the perfect counter if Absinthe went on strike. Slap them in some speedos and start tempting the long neglected female/homosexual male demographics.

Of course, who says there aren't male strippers in the club, just some we haven't seen?

I mean, Devil would want to milk out all the money/souls, so pandering to all would make sense, right?

Silly forumites, female sexuality isn't a thing. It exist purely to please men.

...why would the bouncers and tech guys strike? They're not the ones the Devil's cracking down on.

EDIT: Also, male strippers tend to have their own clubs. Strip clubs where women strip and strip clubs where men strip are generally distinctively separate places, with the former being much more common than the latter.

edited 27th Sep '13 7:22:49 AM by TobiasDrake

U sir win the thread. Tats, YOU FAIL BIOLOGY FOREVER!! Female sexuality IS a thing. Its not just this forum that hates the Sisterhood and Tat's crappy BS radical sex-negative views though. The rpg.net forums also hate this arc pretty strongly, pointing out the Double Standard and blatent Mary Sue nature of the Sisterhood.

Big reason why this arc is so hated is the approach and tone. I'll start by comparing MLK to Malcom X approaches to civil rights. The MLK approach is intrinsically peaceful, non-judgemental, and inclusive (does not discriminate against majority groups and in fact welcomes "allies" with open arms). The Malcom X approach on the other hand is aggressive, full of hate, perfectly willing to use violence and intimidation to get what they want, condescending, judgemental, patronizing, and typically hates you just for being a member of a "majority group". A sensible person with the MLK philosophy would balk at the actions of those with the Malcom X philosophy.

How does this relate to Sin Fest. Tats and the Sisterhood (with likely exception to Nana) are very much "Malcom X" style feminism. Look at the books the Sisterhood read and thus advocate. They carry around the works of Dvorkin and the SCUM Manifesto. Seriously Tats, if you want people on your side on this, abandon the Malcom X attitude, stop being so condescending/smug/patronizing/judgemental about your message, and stop labeling ANYONE who dislikes your MarySue brigade REGARDLESS OF REASON as a self serving misogynist. Not all men are sexist a-holes u know.

edited 27th Sep '13 8:54:54 AM by magnum12

...you haven't seen many of my other posts, otherwise you'd know that there's no way in hell I'd agree with that.

Tat has a horrible attitude towards sex but I refuse to fault him for his supposed crimes against men.

The SCUM Manifesto was like a year ago. He's dialed back the radicalness since then. No one seems to notice.

edited 27th Sep '13 9:01:57 AM by Wackd

Or the lot of you are missing the point, and the comic is just a clusterfuck at this point because Tats is the socially liberal version of Dave Sim and can't decide what he's trying to say or how to say it. That's my theory, which is why I don't read sinfest anymore, but I keep abreast of the thread for the sake of finding out when Tats finally snaps and ends up writing a manifesto in place of the usual sunday strip.

Frankly, I remain unconvinced that Tats is trying to say anything at all anymore, if he ever was to begin with. I maintain my pet theory that Tats is just a guy drawing a webcomic, and not a political leader inspiring revolution to put all men in chains, burn all phallic instruments, and explode the world. He may do piece every now and then about feminism, but seriously, dial back the moral outrage every time Tats draws anything. At this point, Tat can't draw a bunny crossing a road without an explosion of angry ranting on how the bunny represents men and Tat is hoping that a car will run over the bunny and MURDER ALL MEN.

The hate in this thread is self-reinforcing, and 98% of it is your guys' own fault, not Tats. You're just whipping each other up into a pissed off frenzy so you can be pissed off together, and none of it has anything to do with Sinfest.

edited 27th Sep '13 11:33:12 AM by TobiasDrake

Tobias, bro, buddy. If the thread is bugging you, maybe take some time off it, it's not healthy to be frustrated with people every day. Come on, if you want to go some place more pleasant, you can come on over to the One Piece or Attack on Titan threads in the anime section. A little unwinding will do you good.

I'm still gonna stand by the notion Tats has just gone nuts and the comic is a wild clusterfuck of batshit crazy diatribes that have no seeming rhyme not reason to them.

Honestly, I think I'm the least frustrated person in this thread. This is because I don't let literally every comic that goes up rile me into a gigantic ball of hate, then fume and rant and scream about how awful Tats is over this or that thing. I became much happier with Sinfest when I let the hate go, went back and reread the Sisterhood comics, and realizes it's nowhere near as bad as I'd been thinking it was. I was just so busy being defensive before that I couldn't notice that the Sisterhood isn't nearly as bad as I thought they were, and that most of the complaints I had were complaints that I invented myself. And that remains true. Most of the problems people have with the comic are words they put in Tat's mouth, and taking it as an assumption that any time a female character opens her mouth, she's acting as a mouthpiece for Tat himself.

There's so much hatred surrounding Sinfest and none of it is valid, and probably 98% of it are opinions we invented, proclaimed them to be Tat's opinions, and then kicked them around the echo chamber until we were all pissed off and ready to fight. And you know what, I will say it: a lot of the reason why we were upset is because we were being male-centric, misogynistic, dudebros. Frankly, I describe myself as a recovering dudebro because I've realized some unpleasant things about myself and who I've been, and this thread has helped me a lot with that. Arguing against the misogyny kicked around constantly in this thread has helped me to analyze and understand the misogynistic views I never even realized I had.

I read comics like today's, sometimes I laugh, sometimes I wonder where this is going, sometimes I facepalm - because the character is screwed, not because Tat did something awful - and go about my day. I read Sinfest like any other comic, because really, there's nothing to get upset about. In this case, I think 'Nique is biting off more than she can chew, and am curious if her Devil Girl strike is even going to get off the ground before D-Man steps in. I want to see where this goes.

edited 27th Sep '13 12:00:50 PM by TobiasDrake

If you want to know the cause of me being mad personally, the TLDR version is "It's not the whydunnit, but the howdunnit that's pissing me off."

As someone who tries to be a decent, egalitarian person, I get really pissed off when I'm being lumped in with the type of a-hats I'd punch out in public if I caught them doing such things. Its a personal Berserk Button, and I believe Tats is pressing it, A LOT.

On a happier note, I have been enjoying the past week, and really want to see how the strike pans out.

edited 27th Sep '13 12:54:39 PM by magnum12

Tobias, what I think MOST PEOPLE object to is the following short list of issues.

1. The constant use of the word "Men" as a generalization. Now, this is LESS malice and more stupid on the Author's part, and I THINK I get what he was going for, but it winds up as a generalization that REALLY pisses people off. What I THINK the intent was is the guy that will sleep around and be called "a player" but if a woman sleeps around he calls her a slut. He's going FOR THAT GUY...... but he's picking his words poorly, I think. Cause FYI, I see that guy as my asshole detector hits the red. I get that he was going for the "Men are the ones that are oppressing women" thing, but see, he forgot one LITTLE caveat there: Not EVERY man is a misogynist or a "dudebro", plenty of us are perfectly fine with the idea of equality for women, and would like to NOT be lumped in with the asshole oxygen thieves Tats is depicting.

2. Violet. This character in general is just TERRIBLE, she's a nasty little brute and any time she shows up the collective morale of the thread hits rock bottom at the speed of light. I would honestly have more respect for the sisterhood if they didn't have this little hellchild with them. She's bad enough, that for ME at least, she's a point against the comic.

3. The mary sues. Let's face it, the sisterhood has been VERY sueish. Now, in the author's defense, I get he's TRYING to make them a force that can match the devil, but he's not doing it so well.... Namely he's having them be unstoppable, and having no flaws in their arguments. Now, I DO SIDE with women's rights..... but every argument has flaws. Honestly, I would LOVE to see Tats point them out and maybe suggest what could be done to solve them. Now, the Sisterhood COULD be made better, flesh them out a bit, show us what they do when their not doing the sisterhood thing, give them friends, families, maybe explain HOW they joined the sisterhood. That kinda stuff would be a lot better. Hell, have them CRACK JOKES, or even show more facial expression than the actors in a shaymalan movie!

4. De Railing of the plot. When Tats started the sisterhood arc, we were looking at several VERY interesting, fan favorite stories. We had Little E, Story Time Zombie, Lilith, Sapphire, and Fushcia and Crim. These plots were rather nastily derailed in favor of the much blander sisterhood. Now, if Tats had instead alternated, or used the derail to make the sisterhood into characters instead of sues, this wouldn't be so bad, but in response to these complaints.... it leads to the BIGGEST point why people get angry.

5. He's used up his good will. Okay, now Tats might be less of this now or he might not be, it's hard to say without an interview or something, but for a while, He was...... how to say this delicately.... a jackass. He regularly posted comics insulting his critics, and espousing the idea that if you didn't agree with him, you were a misogynist. Now, he's gotten BETTER about this, but he still delves into it at times, and frankly, after he did that for almost a YEAR straight, give or take..... frankly I think the man used up all the good will a lot of folks had for him. Hell, I basically up and quit shortly after that point so that says something about reaching peak tolerance for his behavior. Frankly, doing that sort of thing is a FANTASTIC way to piss off the audience.

Now, with the exception of the last issue, HE COULD FIX THIS. But I don't know that he thinks it needs fixing, or that he WANTS to. I don't honestly know, but I know that these issues, combined with factors like inconsistent messages and start and stop story-lines have basically rendered the comic a mess.

Completely true. Not every male in the world is a dudebro. Neither is every male in the comic, and Tat has never said all males are responsible for the oppression of women. We put those words in his mouth.

I would have more of a problem with the Sisterhood if they didn't have a black sheep. Every time someone says, "the Sisterhood are portrayed as universally sympathetic and are always right about everything," the answer is Violet. The Sisterhood aren't Tat's mouthpieces; they're characters, and one of those characters is a violent, psychotic bitch. Violet balances out Xanthe.

That they don't do anything is kind of the point of the Sisterhood; they're so fixated on their cause that it's all they see, to the detriment of those around them. That's their flaw.

Also, they can't match the Devil. They don't even come close to matching the Devil. The most that could be said of them is that sometimes the Devil notices that they're doing stuff, but more often than not, they can't even claim that. They oppose the Devil, but the Devil keeps right on trucking regardless of what they do, and nothing changes. How many "victories" have they won? A few. And nothing changed because of it.

They haven't derailed any of those. All of these plot elements have continued on in Sinfest. Sometimes Tat decides he wants to write the Sisterhood for a week, and then sometimes he decides he wants to write Crim and Fyoosh, and then sometimes he focuses on Seymour...it's just one thread among many, and is treated as such. But we don't notice that, because we're too busy bitching about this one thread even when all the others are getting the focus. This is another example of us creating our own misery. Tat will do a week of comics on Fyoosh and Criminy and all we can do is go, "GRRR, he's doing story right now but SOON IT WILL BE SISTERHOOD, RAAAAARGH."

And you know what? It's true, he will. Because Tat's not doing a Criminy arc or the dog and cat or such as penance, or a way of showing that he can be better. He's writing them because that's what he wants to write, and when he feels like doing some Sisterhood, he'll do them, and when he wants to write Seymour, he writes Seymour. Tat doesn't give two shits about trying to "fix" Sinfest, because Sinfest isn't broken. He's just writing his different threads when he has an idea for something to do with each of them.

See, this is all just more complaining about reasons for being angry that we created for ourselves. "Used up his good will"? Seriously? That's all on us. We decided whether we're going to be optimistic or pessimistic about this comic, and we all decided to be angry and spiteful. Tat had nothing to do with that. I've since decided to be more optimistic and you know what? Sinfest is great. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

I've seen the comics where he rants about his detractors. I've also seen the rants his detractors direct at him, and frankly, Tat's complaints are incredibly tame by comparison. If anything, Tat's readers have used up their good will, and have since settled into a frothing Hate Dumb from which there seems to be no return. I'd rather take Tat's silly, occasional griping than this thread's daily rabid, frothing hate frenzy. Pot, meet kettle.

edited 27th Sep '13 3:26:47 PM by TobiasDrake

Hey, Just calling it like I see it, and as far as I'm concerned, you're being a bit to easy on the guy. Frankly, he HAS screwed up, pretty hard too. The fact that you seem to be denying ANY mistake on his part is troubling, but at the end of the day, I think we can both agree on one thing: This argument is going nowhere, it's pointless. Niether of us is going to be able to produce solid, nonobjective evidence for out viewpoints. You think the comic is fine and hasn't changed, I think it's a total clusterfuck and the author has no idea what the fuck he's doing.

TL;DR : I'm too tired to argue with you, you keep your opinion, I'll keep mine, and we'll agree to disagree because I can't be bothered to pick shit over a WEBCOMIC.

Now if you'd be so kind as to excuse me, I need to go. I have spyderco blades to swap.

edited 27th Sep '13 5:08:52 PM by Raylas

@Tobias: Well why don't we go through all of them again since it didn't get through.

1. We didn't even need to put those words in his mouth when the number of men who have not in some way been shown to be with the eeeevil patriarchy can be counted on a hand that's been through a wood chipper. This includes men who have previously been perfectly fine. Remember Criminy? Remember all that misogyny he didn't possess? That's why Tats went back and added in that bit about him standing up a lady on a date, since having an all around nice male just won't work. If you really needed any more damning evidence there's also the complete rejection of the term "male ally".

2. Violet is even worse about this because so far none of the Sisterhood has been shown having any problem with Violet at all. We have never once seen that her actions were in any way wrong. She, like the rests of the Sisterhood, has been presented as the ultimate moral right in the world that can do no wrong. We have never heard anything that could be construed as criticism aimed at them coming either from within their group or without.

3. Have you even been reading the comic? The Sisterhood winning is about all that's been going on lately. They managed to hack reality itself and slap around God, and this wasn't damning enough evidence that they have entered the halls of mary sue fame? If we keep not seeing the effects of their victories its because Tats has always had his hand firmly on the reset button at all times since the comic started. This isn't a criticism that started with the Sisterhood, this is one from nearly the beginning that just happens to overlap with the Sisterhood.

4. They have absolutely derailed and in some cases infected the other running plots. True we may get the occasional bits of the other plots, sometimes for longer periods of time than others, but all other plots have been ground to a crawl to make way for the Feminazi brigade. If the other plots want a more prominent role in Sisfest then they have to accept the Sisterhood's infection and start ramming gender issues into them or painting any male characters in said plot threads as evil.

5. The relationship between creator and audience is always a two way street, but when the creator insists on being a massive jackass then whatever the audience reacts with becomes increasingly justified. He derails the entire comic to preach about radical feminism and soon every webcomic forum not named the Sinfest forums starts asking wtf happened. He responds with calling the detractors misogynists and a host of other insults and then the hate starts growing ever more. Yes its his creation and he can do whatever he wants to with it, but the audience can still say whatever the hell they want about it as the consumer. Sure there's not much money involved with this and Tats most likely makes primarily ad revenue off of Sinfest, but the massive hit the site has taken to its viewership speaks to how displeased the fans are with everything.

Yes Tats can do whatever he wants to with the comic, but if the viewership has been taking he needs to think reaaally hard about what he's doing and if maybe, just maybe, there could be a way he could go about this differently to not piss off his audience of years and years.

edited 27th Sep '13 7:02:29 PM by imojee

I'd like to add to this by re-pointing out the bit I did when Xanthe was giving Minique a cupcake and talking about how men should be called 'mehn.' It's on page 137 of this thread if anyone wants to take another look at it.

It really is bigotry and all you have to do to see it is change the target from a socially acceptable one to one that isn't. Notice, the ONLY thing I changed was who the target of the insults was and it became something you could never get away with saying in public.

And that isn't the only comic strip that does that. All the ones about the girl only space, the why shouldn't I hate my oppressors, many of Monique's poetry nowadays,... It's all so bigoted and you just have to change who the target is to see that.

edited 27th Sep '13 8:10:25 PM by daveshan

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=4771

Now I'm wondering what the hell happened in her past to provoke such a thought in the first place.

Panels 2 and 3? Well, all I can say is "Everything's Miserable with Decretum" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVBy1YfIz3Y Relax, its just a joke, albeit a rather dark one.

Still a pretty heartwarming moment.